| |  Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: John Williams]
#169316
02/24/09 12:01 PM 02/24/09 12:01 PM |
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Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider  OP
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Annapolis, MD | For your example of OCS, the rest of the fleet isn't brought into the room because you have both sides of the issue already represented - competitor says "it wasn't me" and the line-spotter says "yes it was," or "I'm not sure." Decision rendered, and reopening extremely unlikely. John, The A cat worlds are the OCS example that comes to mind. Mitch Booth is called OCS... Booth files a protest argues No he was not. Claims Individual Recall Flag was up to slow and he was not given a chance to restart. blah blah blah. For what ever reason the protest is upheld and Booth given redress of 5th place. Right or wrong call ... it was done. The fleet is outraged because they claim the individual flag was flown promptly (fact at issue) and Booth should be tossed for OCS. Under the new standard, I think the fleet's claim for redress from the redress will be heard. And on and on and on it goes. My solution is better judging, training and experience on the PC panel and we should not resort to changing the process. I understand the goal you want to achieve but don't think that changing the game this way will be workable or fun. The USOC is dealing with the many many screw ups of US Olympic Sailing indirectly.... It may be their only tool but the collateral damage is high.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#169333
02/24/09 12:43 PM 02/24/09 12:43 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
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| Hey Todd, no worries. I actually agree with your clarified position. We always check on people, if they wave us on and there are other boats around, we keep going. If we're their only hope if the S hits the fan, we stop regardless until they get it together. I'm usually so far back in the pack redress wouldn't help anyway.  One other negative result of the internet is the Monday-morning (or should I say, years-later) quarterbacking. Did the A-cat worlds not have a qualified IJ? Hard to believe that would be allowed for an ISAF class. Mike | | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#169340
02/24/09 01:01 PM 02/24/09 01:01 PM |
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Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Clermont, FL, USA | Yes I sailed right by, and that was many years ago and to my shame you weren't the only one I did that too. At that time I was a bit ignorant about the risks of our game.
Reading about the many close calls and some tragic events on open water and bouy races I don't sail right by anyone anymore.
If I'm in the proximity of a down boat, I'll stop and at a minimum get a verbal acknowledgement that they are okay (even if it's you Todd) regardless if it's an open water event or bouy race on a closed body of water.
Granted I've had a bit of a wake up call of my own that has given me a sharper focus on this so I'm probably in a different place than you are regarding this issue.
For me things are a little different now.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#169342
02/24/09 01:17 PM 02/24/09 01:17 PM |
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Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider OP
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Annapolis, MD | As anyone who has ever sailed with me will attest,I'm usually over the top when it comes to worrying about my fellow competitors.I have gotten re-dress in 2 Tybees and one Worrell and detoured or stopped numerous other times without worrying about the time.I have seen boats sail by people I would consider in trouble,I stopped.I'm not advocating selfishness,but you have to draw the line somewhere. Cats flip that's part of the game.As posted earlier, if anyone is not up to the task and is depending on someone to help them out,that just seems to open things to more litigation and BS. Todd you make an excellent point here. Being clear on what the responsibilities are is important. You also make the point that good judgment is also essential. It's always better to think through some possible situations so you really know what you should do. Perhaps some questions would make it clear to the peanut gallery. If you are in the water swimming... what is the distress signal that you would use that would make a boat stop racing and render assistance. What is the All OK signal that would allow a racing boat who stops to assist to release and race on. (just like in racing... the verbal communication is unworkable so signals are needed... eg protest and red flags.) How about some guidelines. If there are boats behind the crash, and you are abeam... is it reasonable to expect them to sail by and render assistance and you are not needed to grossly alter course and render assistance? (small course or distance race) If a boat crashes in front of you and you are clearly the first boat who could respond ... must you? Should you be protested if the all clear signal is not given? (small course or distance race) If no one is within sight and you are ahead and happen to see the crash behind... should you stop racing and return? (distance race) Should you be required to have your hand held radio on and tuned to channel 16 listening for the pan pan pan call. (its a big boat requirement) What is the standard of help that requires you to stand by. Is the standard "people's safety" or people and boat safety. eg. If the boat is dismasted but everyone is on the boat? Should you race on and have them call sea tow or tow them into the beach? other's?
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: John Williams]
#169375
02/24/09 04:49 PM 02/24/09 04:49 PM |
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Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Vancouver, BC | I'm not against redress - I think it is important for competitors to be able to make a case that their finish position was made worse through no fault of their own. Reminds me of a US Nats Tornado race in San Diego two years ago. Hosted by SDYC...With the number of boats departing each morning, there would be a fairly large traffic jam at the ramp. This delay getting the water on one occasion made it impossible for 4 boats to arrive at the starting line in time for the start...took over 40 minutes to sail there from the ramp in the light wind mornings. Most teams had coach boats to tow them out...they were fine. We were one of the 4 stragglers...start occured with us just 100 yards away...other stragglers were up to 10 minutes later.
Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Tornado]
#169381
02/24/09 05:48 PM 02/24/09 05:48 PM |
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Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon
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Looking for a Job, I got credi... | I'm not against redress - I think it is important for competitors to be able to make a case that their finish position was made worse through no fault of their own. Reminds me of a US Nats Tornado race in San Diego two years ago. Hosted by SDYC...With the number of boats departing each morning, there would be a fairly large traffic jam at the ramp. This delay getting the water on one occasion made it impossible for 4 boats to arrive at the starting line in time for the start...took over 40 minutes to sail there from the ramp in the light wind mornings. Most teams had coach boats to tow them out...they were fine. We were one of the 4 stragglers...start occured with us just 100 yards away...other stragglers were up to 10 minutes later. Sounds harsh, but be at the front of the queue.
Last edited by scooby_simon; 02/24/09 05:48 PM.
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#169411
02/24/09 10:42 PM 02/24/09 10:42 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | What Dave said!
It's a bright line and you want all racers to recognize it.
Redress is given when fate says it falls to you to stop racing and do your duty to check out the flipped boat. As Mike says... He is liberal with the use of redress because he wants to support this standard.
The notion that the fleet will now sit in on a formal hearing and worse stand up and offer testimony that the redress requested is not warranted seems to me a nightmare.
Even worse, I can see how it will undermine the bright line standard we have now.
Try this one.
I asked for redress for my assistance. I was in 5th place at the time and request a finish of 5th.
Competitor 2. Yes he offered assistance but the race had 5 legs to go and he would never have held his position. He should be given actual time he stood by or a finish position at least 5 boats further back.
Judge to competitor. how much time?... Answer.. 2 minutes
Judge to PRO. subtract two minutes from his elapsed time.
PRO to Judge. Ugh... we don't record elapsed times for a One Design race. Judge... well we have a problem here, tommorow please record elapsed times for all one design boats.
Judge, OK, how about his average finish position for the series.
Competitor 3 rises from the crowd, If you award him average points, it will effect the trophy positions. I think he should be awarded 5th place or 10 place or give him the two minutes but don't effect the overall standings with your arbitrary decision and on and on and on and on and on.
The next time you have to tack and check out a flipped boat... the possibility exists that you will have second thoughts and that this is just not right.
I am much happier with the judge taking a stand that safety will always trump racing and then making his best call on the amount of redress awarded is the best that he can do. The impact on the fleet is secondary.
none of those theoretical people you quote are contributing to the facts found. If a fact was found that the sailor that offered assistance finished an average of 5th place, only that can be commented on by the peanut gallery. Certainly if you leave the floor open to free debate, it will get rediculous. It can be controled and focused if managed properly.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Jake]
#169443
02/25/09 10:36 AM 02/25/09 10:36 AM |
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Columbia South Carolina, USA dave mosley
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Columbia South Carolina, USA | Maybe Im old and dont care anymore, but I dont carry a red flag, nor will you find me in a protest room under my own accord. If I yell protest OTW and the guy does his circles or refuses(which happens most of the time these days) i will curse and sail on. If I get to the beach and still hold a grudge, then I will ask for beer to make up my loss, but the stash of trophies I already own could be thrown away, but the comraderie with my fellow competitors is what I am most proud of.
Now windgate...thats a different story! Nobody ever bought me and Jake a beer, so Im still pissed!
Last edited by dave mosley; 02/25/09 10:37 AM. Reason: sucky speller
The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: dave mosley]
#169478
02/25/09 02:03 PM 02/25/09 02:03 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001
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Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Vancouver, BC | Maybe Im old and dont care anymore, but I dont carry a red flag, nor will you find me in a protest room under my own accord. If I yell protest OTW and the guy does his circles or refuses(which happens most of the time these days) i will curse and sail on. If I get to the beach and still hold a grudge, then I will ask for beer to make up my loss, but the stash of trophies I already own could be thrown away, but the comraderie with my fellow competitors is what I am most proud of. I'd like to give a shout out to those that do acknowledge their fouls and take their lumps. I had an incident in the Mid Windters this past weekend. Approaching the leeward mark under spinny, we were heading deep/low in light air...trying to soak down to the starboard layline while on starboard gybe. one B.L. fro mthe mark we might have made it...then hit a big kelp patch, boat stopped, and rudders stopped turning...we drifted into the mark while trying to gybe to the layline. Then the port rudder caught the ground tackle...we were in a world of hurt. Whilst I was frantically working to lift the rudder blade to stop dragging the mark along, our closest competitor in second place rounded us to the outside. When I next looked up, all I saw was him dead infront of my bows, broadside. We were still parked and I could not judge if there was contact. He went past...we went straight into our penalty turn...lots of shouting (at the gods...not the other boat) and cussing on my part. We settled in and rounded the mark, now a few hundred yards behind in second. Then we see the leader (Bob Sherman) do a penalty turn of his own...didn't know what for. We took back the lead and went on to beat in him an extremely close regatta (ultimately decided by tie breaker in my favor). Later at the club he told me our spin pole bridle fly (a TELOCAT) had brushed his port stay...my boat was on starboard at the time, he on port. He took his penalty. CLASSY! Here we are making a much more tidy mark rounding...Bob in hot pursuit. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.pbase.com/image/109581432.jpg)
Last edited by Tornado; 02/25/09 02:48 PM.
Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Tornado]
#169501
02/25/09 04:47 PM 02/25/09 04:47 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001
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Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider OP
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Annapolis, MD | Does anyone know of an active cat sailor who has also stepped up and taken the judges training course?
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#169546
02/25/09 08:59 PM 02/25/09 08:59 PM |
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI mbounds
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Detroit, MI | Does anyone know of an active cat sailor who has also stepped up and taken the judges training course?
I'm taking the course / exam next weekend. Jamie Diamond is a judge So is Mike Walker from Toronto. | | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#169915
02/28/09 09:29 PM 02/28/09 09:29 PM |
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Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
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Hillsborough, NC USA | Does anyone know of an active cat sailor who has also stepped up and taken the judges training course? Well, yes. I'm an active racer, a US Sailing Certified Judge, and I'm on the Area D Appeals Committee. I do a lot of race committee and protest committee work also. If you need someone to help with an event, drop me a line - although my calendar is pretty full for the year. Regards, Eric | | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Isotope235]
#169947
03/01/09 01:14 PM 03/01/09 01:14 PM |
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Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider OP
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Annapolis, MD | Thanks
I am sure there are more then 4 judges in the USSA but clearly there are not a lot of currently certified judges.
Given the changes that will be coming, I suggest that the USSA Multihull Council start to make a list of the current certified judges who have catamaran racing experience. It is highly likely that some regions will be a few judges short and the MHC may have to recruit individuals to serve.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: mbounds]
#169968
03/01/09 06:58 PM 03/01/09 06:58 PM |
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Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider OP
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Annapolis, MD | Yes, but the new standards would seem to require an active sailor on the PC (20% or 1 of 3).
The complaint is that "those old guys don't know how the game is REALLY played and so their dusty decisions are off base".
blah blah blah.
While I don't agree... I have heard this issue raised about getting a certified judge. Moreover, I don't see a lot of protest hearings even called as many sailors simply don't file a protest if the foul is not resolved on the water.
If the USOC standards are fully implemented... I would guess that these guys are not going to count as that important one of three.
What really matters is how many juries are actually called for catamaran regattas.
What is the demand for judges?
How many events get a judge?
I assume North Americans go to the trouble... How about mid winters and other events like Tradewinds or Spring Fever?
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: mbounds]
#169971
03/01/09 08:12 PM 03/01/09 08:12 PM |
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South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | There are siginificantly more judges that are familiar with catamarans (that aren't active racers anymore):
Paul Ulibarri (IJ)
Means Davis (IJ)
Doug Campbell (USSA Senior Judge)
Kim Kymlicka
. . . just for starters. Dave and Barb Shafer too. But isn't the point that a registered athlete would have to be one of the judges?
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: Protest Hearings... How many do we have?
[Re: Jake]
#169977
03/01/09 09:24 PM 03/01/09 09:24 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969 brucat
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| Well, I think we'll need to look at the requirements very carefully. Saying that you need an athlete is not the same as saying that you need an athlete that is also a certified judge. If there are other rules that make this a requirement (such as, no part of the PC can be uncertified), that would make it a moot point (we'd need to start certifying more current athletes as judges asap).
I was looking for some info, and I'm concerned about the ISAF and CYA sites. Neither list PU as an IJ. The CYA site lists PU as a Senior National Judge, not as an IJ. The ISAF site lists him as an IRO, and a bunch of other things (iternational techical official-type stuff), but not as an IJ.
As for Mike Walker, he's not listed on the CYA site, nor is Neil McNeill, who I really thought was a judge (based on conversations with Irene).
So, either we're using old / incorrect info, or the resourse sites aren't being updated. Either way, it would be in our best interest to come up with a list for the MHC to maintain to help the cat classes identify qualified, cat-experienced judges.
Most people that are certified love to be invited to events. To stay current, they need to have hearings. Many regattas never have hearings, so they're always on the lookout for events.
Mike | | |
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