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Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: TeamChums] #271746
04/23/14 07:12 PM
04/23/14 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
I once hired a forecaster who was more consistently wrong than if I wet my finger and stuck it in the air.


He didn't work for SA did he? The last year we did it, one of our ground crew kept telling us each day what to expect and was not even close! I asked her where she was getting her info and all I can say was his initials were MM. I politely said we didn't need any info from that source.


Nope not that one - I can't imagine what that would be like.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: brucat] #271747
04/23/14 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Originally Posted by Jake
why do the SI's state that there is no protest committee? It's this kind of stuff that makes us look like amateurs to the sport of sailing.

14.2 An arbitration committee shall be called to seek resolution of redress requests described in submitted protest forms. The PRO and the Beach Master will be members of but shall not chair of this committee.

The only reason we do not have a protest committee is that we would need to get a live certified Judge to preside, we would need to pay his expenses.


Not true. There is no requirement to pay or reimburse any official. You could have different (local) judges at each stop as well.

And, you don't have to use a certified judge (although that is best practice).

What is the plan if someone wants to file a protest (not a request for redress)?

Mike


We scratch together a protest committee at local regattas with 8 boats. We did it a couple of months ago as a formality. There's really nothing magical to it.


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: samc99us] #271748
04/23/14 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by samc99us
If SPOT trackers are mandatory, as currently stated in the SI's, they either need to be provided by RC and sponsorship dollars used to cover their cost OR the fee included with the entry fee like other races that use tracking.

The inability to lodge a protest is asking for trouble. What is the RC's proposed solution when there is a collision at a start, finish or at any other time during racing and the results of a formal protest hearing need to be submitted for an insurance claim?


For starters, the protest has nothing to do with an insurance claim although it is never a bad idea in this regard. A protest committee NEVER assigns "fault". Protest committees only assign penalties as it relates to breaches of the rules. The fact that this may or may not affect or influence the decision of an insurance company is completely arbitrary.


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271749
04/23/14 07:24 PM
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Ditto...

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271750
04/23/14 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
For starters, the protest has nothing to do with an insurance claim although it is never a bad idea in this regard. A protest committee NEVER assigns "fault". Protest committees only assign penalties as it relates to breaches of the rules. The fact that this may or may not affect or influence the decision of an insurance company is completely arbitrary.

Protest Committee (in the USA) does not adjudicate any claim for damages (see USS Prescription 67(b)). However, "by participating in an event governed by the rules, a boat agrees that responsibility for damages arising from any breach of the rules shall be based on fault as determined by application of the rules...". See USS Prescription 67(c).
  1. Because an insurance company cannot apply the rules without knowing what happened, it is vitally important to have a protest hearing that provides finding of facts.
  2. Because you cannot depend on an insurance company knowing anything about the rules, it's vitally important to have a protest hearing to apply the rules and determine fault.
So yes, protest committee does determine "fault", and yes, that determination directly affects an insurance claim.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271753
04/23/14 08:45 PM
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Not exactly the way I've heard it described at seminars. The insurance companies can take the report as evidence, but can then do whatever they want in terms of damages.

Mike

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Isotope235] #271754
04/23/14 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
For starters, the protest has nothing to do with an insurance claim although it is never a bad idea in this regard. A protest committee NEVER assigns "fault". Protest committees only assign penalties as it relates to breaches of the rules. The fact that this may or may not affect or influence the decision of an insurance company is completely arbitrary.

Protest Committee (in the USA) does not adjudicate any claim for damages (see USS Prescription 67(b)). However, "by participating in an event governed by the rules, a boat agrees that responsibility for damages arising from any breach of the rules shall be based on fault as determined by application of the rules...". See USS Prescription 67(c).
  1. Because an insurance company cannot apply the rules without knowing what happened, it is vitally important to have a protest hearing that provides finding of facts.
  2. Because you cannot depend on an insurance company knowing anything about the rules, it's vitally important to have a protest hearing to apply the rules and determine fault.
So yes, protest committee does determine "fault", and yes, that determination directly affects an insurance claim.

Regards,
Eric


Eric +1 on every one of your posts in this thread.
Warren told me the arbitration comm. has the same effect("The results of an arbitration committee may be used for insurance purposes as the results of a Protest committee."). Not sure how it gets handled when no one is requesting redress but has a protest to lodge for a rules infraction, of which it is supposed to be your responsibility to protest.This concerns me, even though I've only ever filed one in my life also (to get redress).
I'm pretty much to the point where I'm done pointing out stuff on here because with the exception of Eric, many (Mike) seem to justify or create a straw man to try to argue their point for breaking the rules, that still doesn't make it right or legal. For example:Communication and outside assistance are different things. Outside assistance requires communication but not vice versa.
Sam, The Spots are not mandatory for the 300(per the SIs) unless you are going to use it instead of an Epirb.They may be for the sprint thing, not sure.

Last edited by Team_Cat_Fever; 04/23/14 10:18 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271756
04/23/14 09:06 PM
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So now we can't have a debate about the rules without being accused of trying to break them? Wow...

Mike

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: brucat] #271757
04/23/14 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
So now we can't have a debate about the rules without being accused of trying to break them? Wow...

Mike


You've swung and missed so many times on this thread it really doesn't matter.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271758
04/23/14 09:27 PM
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You need to get out more. Not every event has to be run the same way, nor the way you personally desire.

No one is a bigger stickler for rules than I am, but rules can and do change. What is important is that they be clear and the consequences be well understood.

I'd love to see how you can allow unlimited communications, but censor the conversations on private devices. Get back to me when you have an answer for that one...

(I know, it's easier to just accuse me of promoting cheating, isn't it?)

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 04/23/14 09:28 PM.
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: brucat] #271759
04/23/14 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
The insurance companies can take the report as evidence, but can then do whatever they want in terms of damages.

Well, let's take a hypothetical example. Say Boats S and P collide on the racecourse, and boat S is damaged. S protests P. Protest committee finds that S broke no rules and that P broke rules 10 and 14, and PC penalizes P.

Although protest committee does not award damages to S ("such a claim is subject to the jurisdiction of the courts" - rule 67(b)), P is responsible for any monetary damages - rule 67(c).

So, lets suppose that S repairs his boat, and asks P to pay the cost. P, being the honorable fellow he is, makes an insurance claim under his liability policy. P's insurance company might deny the claim, especially if it doesn't get the facts, doesn't understand the racing rules, or mistakenly applies the legal doctrine of "assumption of risk". That doesn't make P any less responsible. If P can't get his insurance to cover the (monetary) damages, then P has to pay them out of his own pocket.

The completed protest form (with facts, conclusions, and decision of the protest committee) protects both S and P. S needs it to pursue a claim in the courts (if P doesn't pay willingly). P needs it (and possibly other documentation) to support his insurance claim. If there is no hearing, then somebody is going to get stiffed.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: brucat] #271760
04/23/14 10:23 PM
04/23/14 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
You need to get out more. Not every event has to be run the same way, nor the way you personally desire.

No one is a bigger stickler for rules than I am, but rules can and do change. What is important is that they be clear and the consequences be well understood.

I'd love to see how you can allow unlimited communications, but censor the conversations on private devices. Get back to me when you have an answer for that one...

(I know, it's easier to just accuse me of promoting cheating, isn't it?)

Mike


Get over yourself.I called you irrelevant, not a cheater. You have nothing to do with this race and aren't a distance racer, and obviously don't know near as much as you think you do, so how 'bout quit trolling and go back to the Hobie 16 forum.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: brucat] #271767
04/24/14 06:58 AM
04/24/14 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
You need to get out more. Not every event has to be run the same way, nor the way you personally desire.

No one is a bigger stickler for rules than I am, but rules can and do change. What is important is that they be clear and the consequences be well understood.

I'd love to see how you can allow unlimited communications, but censor the conversations on private devices. Get back to me when you have an answer for that one...

(I know, it's easier to just accuse me of promoting cheating, isn't it?)

Mike


Past Tybee 500s had the same rule...you can talk to your ground crew, just not about strategy. David Lennard even had a waterproof bluetooth ear piece for that purpose (for whatever good it did). I remember him calling in to report that two teams had cut inside the forbidden exclusion zone around Canaveral....which was a rule application disaster. I think those teams ended up with a 20 minute penalty which was, at best, close to the advantage they gained. This was in contrast to the skipper's meeting statement that you would be disqualified if you sailed inside the zone (not only taking a buoy to the wrong side but inside a straight line between the buoys that are separated by miles).

That's been my one beef about the east coast distance racing I've done. It takes a lot of time and preparation to put together a campaign for an event like this and then you run into something that's just not fair and it takes away from it. It's not that complicated to put a genuine jury in place. Dealing with rule infractions swiftly and justly actually reduces tension and makes things go much easier.

On the flip side, I do realize that there just aren't that many bodies willing to organize and operate a race like this - so I do feel a little guilty complaining.

Has anyone ever tried a video conference jury?


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271769
04/24/14 07:16 AM
04/24/14 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
You need to get out more. Not every event has to be run the same way, nor the way you personally desire.

No one is a bigger stickler for rules than I am, but rules can and do change. What is important is that they be clear and the consequences be well understood.

I'd love to see how you can allow unlimited communications, but censor the conversations on private devices. Get back to me when you have an answer for that one...

(I know, it's easier to just accuse me of promoting cheating, isn't it?)

Mike


Past Tybee 500s had the same rule...you can talk to your ground crew, just not about strategy. David Lennard even had a waterproof bluetooth ear piece for that purpose (for whatever good it did). I remember him calling in to report that two teams had cut inside the forbidden exclusion zone around Canaveral....which was a rule application disaster. I think those teams ended up with a 20 minute penalty which was, at best, close to the advantage they gained. This was in contrast to the skipper's meeting statement that you would be disqualified if you sailed inside the zone (not only taking a buoy to the wrong side but inside a straight line between the buoys that are separated by miles).

That's been my one beef about the east coast distance racing I've done. It takes a lot of time and preparation to put together a campaign for an event like this and then you run into something that's just not fair and it takes away from it. It's not that complicated to put a genuine jury in place. Dealing with rule infractions swiftly and justly actually reduces tension and makes things go much easier.

On the flip side, I do realize that there just aren't that many bodies willing to organize and operate a race like this - so I do feel a little guilty complaining.

Has anyone ever tried a video conference jury?


One of those teams would not have fessed up if I hadn't threatened a protest.They admitted their fault (under duress) and I suspect that's why the penalty was a wash and so weak. That's one of the reasons the no protest thing worries me.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: brucat] #271770
04/24/14 07:23 AM
04/24/14 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
I'd love to see how you can allow unlimited communications, but censor the conversations on private devices.

Obviously, you can't censor private phone conversations. But then again, you can't prevent a boat from breaking a number of other rules when she's sailing out of sight. When there are no witnesses, a boat can also get away with:
  • skipping a mark or rounding it improperly (RRS 28);
  • touching a mark (RRS 31);
  • removing PFDs (RRS 40);
  • prohibited means of propulsion such as rocking, pumping, ooching, or sculling (RRS 42);
  • wearing weights (RRS 43);
  • hauling out (RRS 45);
  • adding or removing crew or equipment (RRS 47);
  • sitting outside lifelines (RRS 49);
  • flying multiple spinnakers, double-poling a spinnaker, or using an outrigger (RRS 50);
  • moving ballast (RRS 51); or
  • putting trash in the water (RRS 55); et al.
Imperfect enforcement is not specific to RRS 41 by any means. At some point, however, one has to assume that competitors generally abide by the rules. One can hope that those few who don't will eventually slip up and get caught - or one can get used to disappointment.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271771
04/24/14 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Has anyone ever tried a video conference jury?

I haven't been in one myself, but video conference protest hearings have been held. US Sailing even has (or at least had) a GoToMeeting account available for that purpose. The judges I've spoken to who have done it feel that it's very important to be able to see the protestor and protestee (as well as the witnesses). It's important to get the nonverbal clues, as well as to insure that the parties aren't getting off-camera advice.

I've signed up as "judge on call" for a couple of events, but wasn't needed to phone into a hearing.

I've attended a few regattas where I couldn't be on protest committee (conflict of interest as a competitor), but I've offered advice to the PC. I can't hear testimony, question witnesses, help deliberate, or otherwise participate, but I can be called as a witness to advise on protest procedures and rule application.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #271773
04/24/14 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by brucat
You need to get out more. Not every event has to be run the same way, nor the way you personally desire.

No one is a bigger stickler for rules than I am, but rules can and do change. What is important is that they be clear and the consequences be well understood.

I'd love to see how you can allow unlimited communications, but censor the conversations on private devices. Get back to me when you have an answer for that one...

(I know, it's easier to just accuse me of promoting cheating, isn't it?)

Mike


Get over yourself.I called you irrelevant, not a cheater. You have nothing to do with this race and aren't a distance racer, and obviously don't know near as much as you think you do, so how 'bout quit trolling and go back to the Hobie 16 forum.


...having no solution, you're back to slinging insults. So helpful to your relevancy.

Go back a few posts, you most definitely accused me of making a case to break rules. How is that not calling me a cheater?

Jake and Eric make great points, that this could basically be handled as a gentleman's agreement and protested under the existing rules. I would caution against too much naïveté, it only takes one bad situation to ruin the reputation of an event. And ultimately, I care deeply about this.

Mike

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Isotope235] #271775
04/24/14 09:10 AM
04/24/14 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
Has anyone ever tried a video conference jury?

I haven't been in one myself, but video conference protest hearings have been held. US Sailing even has (or at least had) a GoToMeeting account available for that purpose. The judges I've spoken to who have done it feel that it's very important to be able to see the protestor and protestee (as well as the witnesses). It's important to get the nonverbal clues, as well as to insure that the parties aren't getting off-camera advice.

I've signed up as "judge on call" for a couple of events, but wasn't needed to phone into a hearing.

I've attended a few regattas where I couldn't be on protest committee (conflict of interest as a competitor), but I've offered advice to the PC. I can't hear testimony, question witnesses, help deliberate, or otherwise participate, but I can be called as a witness to advise on protest procedures and rule application.

Regards,
Eric


I can see how the visual aspect of being on a jury is important - it would definitely be important to me if I were sitting on a jury. But, I do believe that even a conference call committee is better than none. That could be a cool service.


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #271776
04/24/14 09:15 AM
04/24/14 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
You need to get out more. Not every event has to be run the same way, nor the way you personally desire.

No one is a bigger stickler for rules than I am, but rules can and do change. What is important is that they be clear and the consequences be well understood.

I'd love to see how you can allow unlimited communications, but censor the conversations on private devices. Get back to me when you have an answer for that one...

(I know, it's easier to just accuse me of promoting cheating, isn't it?)

Mike


Past Tybee 500s had the same rule...you can talk to your ground crew, just not about strategy. David Lennard even had a waterproof bluetooth ear piece for that purpose (for whatever good it did). I remember him calling in to report that two teams had cut inside the forbidden exclusion zone around Canaveral....which was a rule application disaster. I think those teams ended up with a 20 minute penalty which was, at best, close to the advantage they gained. This was in contrast to the skipper's meeting statement that you would be disqualified if you sailed inside the zone (not only taking a buoy to the wrong side but inside a straight line between the buoys that are separated by miles).

That's been my one beef about the east coast distance racing I've done. It takes a lot of time and preparation to put together a campaign for an event like this and then you run into something that's just not fair and it takes away from it. It's not that complicated to put a genuine jury in place. Dealing with rule infractions swiftly and justly actually reduces tension and makes things go much easier.

On the flip side, I do realize that there just aren't that many bodies willing to organize and operate a race like this - so I do feel a little guilty complaining.

Has anyone ever tried a video conference jury?


One of those teams would not have fessed up if I hadn't threatened a protest.They admitted their fault (under duress) and I suspect that's why the penalty was a wash and so weak. That's one of the reasons the no protest thing worries me.


Krantz and Lennard made a fuss too and did actually file a protest with a non existant protest committee. And we woke up to nasty crap on our boat because they mistook us for Krantz' boat. That whole thing was awful and took away from the event experience. Wanna have a good trip down memory lane? Go replay the TV special footage of that next-morning skippers meeting where one of the offending team's ground crew ironically called out (negatively) the people that had made a fuss about them cutting the corner as poor sports. The whole thing just wasn't handled well and took more than 24 hours for any penalty to be adjudicated.

As I said before, I feel pretty bad by harping on this incident and I don't want it to taint all of the work and effort that Chuck and his group put into the event. Lord knows they spent a lot of time, money, and effort to make it happen - and it was overall a terrific event. However, we should be able to learn from the couple of times that things didn't go as well as they could have.

This is just one of those deals where reality and "what should be" (sailors being happily self-policing) are different and the best way to deal with it is to have something in place to handle it efficiently should the need arise. That whole situation would have been much less dramatic if it was just dealt with swiftly and there was a mechanism in place to handle the situation. Frank and I both saw both teams cut inside - they were just inside of us on the course when they consciously deviated north while we were heading out to clear the first buoy. You have a hearing, you hear the witnesses (at least four teams saw it happen), adjudicate the penalty, and go back to racing. Rip the bandaid off quickly and move along.

I would be willing to be a jury member on-call by video or phone for this event. I might even be able to organize the voice conferencing system through my Ring Central account.


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271778
04/24/14 09:29 AM
04/24/14 09:29 AM
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It sounds like a situation that a gps tracker could have simplified. We're such devices in use for that race?

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