Area D South Results!

Shifty, but lots of wind today with nice, flat water. RC recorded 13-15 knots consistent with peak gust of 19.5. Many capsizes, some damage, but nothing regatta-ending.

Good race management - fleet is gorging on BBQ right now.

Scores posted HERE!

According to the Boca Ciega baywatch (http://home.tampabay.rr.com/baywatch/) during the afternoon the winds peaked around 2pm at 22mph with gusts to 28mph. Not too bad with flat water though.

Hate to stir the pot.. BUT...
Whats up with most of the F16s DNC, DNS?
WTF happened?

congrats Olli !!!!! Capricorn is looking well ... Doug

1st Race - top 4 boats, from 4 different classes, within 1 minute corrected

2nd Race - top 4 boats, again from 4 different classes, within 44 seconds corrected

1st through 5th overall coming from 5 different classes.

Looks like some pretty good racin goin on.

Some swimming and some boats did not realize there was an offset mark to round.

oops! what course(s) do they normally run at these? Is the offset mark a reaching mark (B?) Or is it the mark next to A that limits the possibility of a pile up rounding A? I think I remember a discussion on offset marks in high winds with mixed fleets.

I see that the elapsed time of the first place boat was less than 30 minutes most of the time, congratulations Kelly and Ollie. I am curious what the courses were?

Dan

The event is not over yet. Three more races were planned for today.

Wouter

All over now - great breeze again today. Final scores posted. I need food - post more later. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There was more wind than I wanted, or felt comfortable with, so I took the DNC. Nice party though, great venue. Great folks at GYC.

The site was not at GYC, but at the public beach. The place has a Key West kind of feel. I expect to be back often.

Hey Pete I am going to have to start calling your Frank <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I think Terry has some stories to tell you! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ahhahaha There are sailors who have, and sailors who will! (sorry for the inside joke)

It has to do with the mainsail. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm afraid you're right, but I'm gonna postpone it as long as possible! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Why has Terry Back been removed from the overall results ?

He and Tina were in their yesterday and now he is gone ?

What happened ?

Wouter

Huh? I show him in 19th... are we looking at the same thing?

JW - who gets the invite? Have O&K or J&K already qualified in some other manner? Sorry if this is dumb question.

Duh !!!!

you are right, sorry !

NOT a dumb question. Olli and Kelly had not qualified in any other way, and they confirmed that they will be pleased to represent Area D South next April in the Championship.

JC is likely to be invited, and I expect Performance will name him as one of their reps - however, he'd been saying all along that he would not race with Kenny on the Blade. That is why Kenny was on the helm all weekend - JC never touched the tiller. Kenny wanted to qualify in his own right.

So, since Kenny was second, he has a chance of being invited - because Area D South was the biggest qualifier this year, if any other Area doesn't send a team, then the second-place team from this event gets invited.

Next month, the manufacturers will name their teams. Petitions are due by December 31st. By mid-January, the whole fleet will be announced.

I can say unequivocally that the Blade is fast fast fast. Matt and Gina were across the finish line seconds in front of us twice today - he's beating Nacra 20s and F-18s boat-for-boat. That is the good news. The bad news is that all this race data goes straight to the Portsmouth Committee - watch for the F-16 number to drop. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Dan, they were all course 6 with a short offset at windward. No gate.

If I'm remembering correctly, there was no gate because the conditions prohibited setting it properly. Others may have understood the rationale better.

I have scored the fleet using the Texel handicap system. Here the F16's are rated no less then 4.5 % faster then under US-PN and that is alot !

The top 5 under Texel is :

-1- Ollie and Kelly Jason ------------ 9 points
-2- Kenny Pierce and John Casey --- 12 points
-3- Matt and Gina McDonald -------- 22 points
-4- Jennifer Lindsay, Fred Metcalf--- 26 points
-5- David and Cathy Ingram -------- 28 points


But its gets even better then this !

If I score the Blade F16 sailed by Matt/Gina not at the Texel F16 rating but at the Texel F18 rating then I find that they STILL end up at 3rd place with 25 points !

I have deep respect for Matt and especially Gina. This 3rd place was earned the right way, by fast sailing and not because of any peachy PN handicap.


But I'm not worrying yet, it'll take DECADES before the US Portsmouth rating comes anywhere near the Texel F16 rating.


And yes I want everybody to know that ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Wouter

In race 1, Tina and I capsized 2x on the same spin' run, the second time I sent her thru my main sail (much like Robi at JPOR -- Batten to Batten along a seam line)

Tina's great! .... I'm heading for the beach to have a beer and Tina says "The "C" mark is that way <-- " (opposite direction).

I look at the main, and say "Tina, we have a "f****g" hole in our main (in a nice gentlemanly way). Which she says in reply, "you think it'll get any bigger?". WHAT A COMPETITOR.

I decided to err on caution and suggested we hit the beach and make a repair. I wasn't sure the sail tape would hold with such high winds and gusts.

We made the repair and got back out for the 3rd and 4th race. Surprisingly the repair worked great.

Soooo, we DNF in race 1, DNS in race 2 and in race 3 we exonerated ourselves because we didn't round the offset (DNF). (Frankly we hadn't seen it even in race 1.) Race 4 we did much better finishing (corrected) at 12th.

Too tired to write more....I'll check back later.

You misunderstand me, Wout. In every class, there are one or two teams that drive the number down - Matt and Gina are that team for the F-16s. Their position was EARNED - I did not mean to imply otherwise. But as the first boat in their class to cross the finish line, their's are the numbers that will be used in the next revisions.

No disrespect intended toward you John, I fully understood what you meant and my post was not at all directed in a negative towards you.

But it'll be a while till the portsmouth numbers drop. We had a few of similar scorings happen in the past. One was when Jim Boyer was over here last year. Kirt Simmons actually won the Alter Cup Area D south qualifier 3 years ago singlehanding his Taipan. Diddly sh!t happened with those results then. So I'm not holding my breath now.

The remainder of my post was just to show everybody how much the McDonalds earned their place. I find it a significant achievement for a crew that got off the Hobie 16 last year to do this well in such a fleet now. With Matt being very busy it is not like these guys train alot. As far as I can gether their practise time were the Harken distance race events. Only a handful of those each year.

Best of luck to you all.

Wouter

Hi John,

Has the Alter Cup been shortened to just three days? April 27-29 is posted.

Ken
Area H

Using that logic, shouldn't the number also come down for the F18 and Nacra 20?

Hey Wouter -

Actually it was Jennifer and Kelly that won on a Taipan 4.9 in 2004 - they rated 66.9 then. The current number is 65.2 - I think that is a pretty significant drop in just a couple of years... Use today's ratings and the girls would have been third behind JC and Kenny on a Nacra 20 and Alex and Patsy on an F18.

Regardless - great weekend and mucho fun. I like this club a lot. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Heya Pete -

Possibly - those classes have more accumulated data than the younger F16 class, so changes are less dramatic as a result - usually.

Disclaimer - I do not sit on the Portsmouth Committee. I just turn in the numbers. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Ken - long time.

It will still be a week long event, but the dates have not been set. I'll get Darline to correct the web page. Thanks for catching it. I think she pulled those dates from an e-mail discussing what days the club needed to reserve the park from the City of Melbourne.

You are right about Jennifer and Kelly of course but I also seem to remember Kirt Simmons won it one time singlehanding his Taipan. He didn't go to the Alter Cup itself that year, which I thought was a real pitty hence I remember it. Maybe somebody else knows ? Kirt ?

Anyway with your example of Jennifer and Kelly and possibly Kirt we have now shown that good results for these boats do not really change their US-PN in any meaningful way. Hence the US F16 sailor taking the matter in their own hands now and requesting faster handicaps at events.

66.9 back in 2004 ? I had forgotten how low the rating was back then. At that time I was already sailing my boat of the F18 rating under Texel, think about 63 under PN (6 % faster).

It is not the way the world should be but ... it is the only way to get it done.

Thinks for the info John.

Also I hear everybody say how nice the Tamba club and it members are. I may just have to go there for a short sailing holliday !

Wouter

How many spots do they give for the alter cup?

Congrats Olli... absolutly, but it was Kelly doing all the work!

WELL DONE KELLY!

Congratulations Ollie and Kelly Jason. 4 bullets in 7 races. You guys smoke !

Wouter

From the Championship Conditions:

So what is the "designated rotating class" this year JW?

The Committee will accumulate the results from all the different classes' nationals and come up with a ballot that includes how many boats were on the start line. The ballot is circulated shortly after the manufacturers designate their teams so that there is no duplication. Participation is the biggest factor - a class with 40 boats at their nationals has a better chance than a class with only five or six.

Brings up a good topic for discussion, though: there is a proposal on the agenda to change the way the invitations are allocated next year. Rather than give Hobie and Performance both two slots, it has been suggested they each get one, with one going to the A-Class and one going to the Formula 18 class, since these two classes are multi-manufacturer and have consistently high participation at their respective national events. What do you folks think of that?

It's really none of my business since it doesn't affect anyone this side of the pond John, but I'd have thought that it was high time that A's and F18's got automatic slots. Particularly with the growth that both classes have demonstrated in the US. Doesn't the Tornado class rate a slot as well?

Do you not give a youth team a slot to come and play with the 'big boys'? I'm thinking particularly of your top rated youth team that are working towards an Olympic place.

The Olympic Class automatically gets a slot, though they seldom take it.

There is not a permanent Youth slot, but for the last several years, the Committee has voted to give the current Youth Champion one of the three petition slots - I fully expect that to happen again this year.

Personally, I agree that As and F-18s should both get a slot. Strong competition. The current set up was written before these classes had such consistent participation. I like change, and it seems warranted in this case. I still would like to hear what others think, since it is a decision that requires votes by representatives - decisions on the Committee are supposed to be constituency-based.

John,

I like the idea.

Dave

John: That is a great idea!

Kelly and Jason: You continue proving yourselves quite capable sailors! Congratulations again. Looks like a tough field to be sailing against. Good luck at the Championships.

Later,
Dan

Credit where it is due - this proposal came from Bob Hodges and is on the agenda for the Committee meeting in Rhode Island in a couple of weeks.

So in practical terms.

Performance chooses betwen Nacra 20 classes

Hobie chooses between Hobie 20, Hobie 16 and Hobie 18,

(Setting asside the single handed Hobie 17, Hobie 14 and F17R sailors for a minute)

Plus F18 (Takes care of Nacra, Hobie and Cap)
Then you have two small classes
Tornado
Sharks.

Seems like the large number of Hobie sailors get slighted if they loose one of their two slots for designation.

Is there a rational policy for including Singlehand sailors in a championship using two person boats?

Seems to me, Hobie 17, Hobie 14, A class and Isotopes and F17R's are all in the same circumstance. They would need to put together a team to compete. Perhaps they don't care about competing in the US multihull championships.

In any case, Why would you parse a designated spot for one of these classes (A class) but lump the rest into the recommended by builder?

If you decide that the single handers deserve a shot at competeing for the US Championship outside the Area qualifiers ... then how do you sort between the single handed classes.

I am not sure the proposal has been cooked all the way through yet.

Personally, I would like to see all of these classes feature the area qualifiers in their schedules. In my area we managed only 8 boats as each individual class scheduled lots of events just before the area C qualifier.


One draconian change might be to have invitations go out based on class participation in the qualifiers. Classes that support qualifiers get an additional slot. Those classes that don't care... don't get a slot...

In Area C, we have a large H17 and A class fleet, No Hobie 20 or F18 or Nacra 20 (doing buoys racing fleets) and a large H16 fleet and a small Hobie 18 fleet.) Calculate what percentage of the viable racing fleet supports the qualifier with attendance. Average across the different Areas ... Pick the classes that care and award additional slots based on those class nationals.

IMO, We need to have the Class organizations behind the ARea Championships and then reward them with extra slots based on participation. Shift the onus for securing the number of slots to the sailors in the class... Not the builders.

(These ideas are off the top of my head and perhaps should be shreded instantly... but food for thought.)

Mark

Just like John Alani I'm on the wrong side of the big pond to be affected by what is decided. However this thread did got me thinking about it.

Just a few wild idea's :

Why should any class get preference over another with respect to the Alter Cup slots ?

Why should some F18 sailor get 3 chances at getting in while most others are only getting one shot ? Some sailors like an Nacra F18 sailor are getting one shot through their nacra nationals, one shot through their F18 nationals and one shot through their local area qualifier. While say a non aligned sailor will get only 1 shot through his local qualifier. And this sailor will be especially unlucky if his qualifier is one of the big ones with over 20 boats participating.


This is hardly a fair ruleset.

So allow me to propose a totally different approach.

Why not make the allotting of slots more dependent on boats entered. If you win 2nd place in a 24 boat fleet (area K) then you have more ground to claim a slot then when you win 1st in a 5 boat fleet (see area H of this year). So why not give him that ?

So here my proposal :

First, the winner of last year needs a slot and at least 1 wild-card slot is handy to have. The latter gives the Alter Cup committee some way of adressing freak phenomena during the qualifiers. So lets reserve 2 slots; still leaving 18 slots to be devided.

Now line the events up, in decreasing order, by the numbers of boats that have finished least 1 heat. Area's without a qualifier event are deleted from the list.

Each area still in the listing gets a slot.

Then each area having more then 10 boats finish at least one heat will get an additional slot, preference to place in the listing. Then same for each area having more then 20 boats etc. This continues till there are no more slots left or till you've run out of events having rights to more slots.

If slot are left over, which is likely under the current participation at the qualifiers then these slots all become wild-cards that can be petitioned.



An example taking this years qualifiers.

Area K 24 boats (taken from last year) => 3 slots
Area D-S 21 boats => 3 slots
Area E 18 boats => 2 slots
Area G 13 boats (taken form last year) => 2 slots
Area F 12 boats => 2 slots
Area J 9 boats => 1 slot
Area D-N 7 boats => 1 slot
Area C 8 boats => 1 slot
Area H 5 boats => 1 slot
Area A/B no qualifier held so no slots

Assigned : 16 slots + 1 last year winner = 3 slots are left for petitioning (wild cards).



This way each sailor gets an pretty equal chance at getting at the Alter Cup if his skills are sufficient.

Area's with small qualifier fleets are not favoured, neither are sailors who happen to belong to 3 seperate slot assigning groups like Hobie Tiger, F18 class and Area X. Or nacra A2, A-cat class and again area X.

Also area's able to hold qualifiers with large fleets tend to sustain a racing cirquit of higher skill levels. Such area's get now to send more sailors to the Alter Cup making the cup more heavily contested. This system will prevent any qualifier event from being more heavily contested then the Alter Cup itself. The current system certainly allows such a thing to happen now.

Also it really awards area's that get more then 10 boats at their qualifiers. It will be in everybodies interested to get Joe out on the water as well. Maybe this directly helps participation. It will certainly make organising a succesful qualifier more rewarding.

Also a sailor maybe an excellent sailor inside his class but be pretty mediocre in an qualifier event. Therefor it is far best to have the qualifiers determine slots. You don't want this guy at the Alter cup when 5 other sailors from his own area would beat him already. This would be fair to nobody. Especially not to the 5 sailors who have better skills but don't belong to any favoured class. What if John Casey/Kenny Pierce were last years winner. Then some other I-20 crew from Florida could possibly get a slot while having been merciless beaten at the qualifier by no less then 11 other crews. Not the sort of thing you want to happen.

Wouter

As much as I don't want to, I have to agree with the Wout on this one.

The flip side of this is you need boats for the Alter Cup, and Hobie and Nacra have pretty much been the main players in this regard, and yes there have been exceptions (Bim F18ht and now the V-Works Blade), I just don't know how well this idea will sit with them.

Mr. Williams I do not envy you in this task, but I couldn't think of a more qualified person for the job.

Ding

My recommendation to John was to consider increasing the number of rotating classes and I asked that they consider reducing the number of manufacturer classes. The risk is it could bruise the relationship between the manufacturers and the Alter Cup committee but I think like a bruise it would heal quickly.

If that happens, I asked John to use a selection criteria that gave the classes with the most participation at their major national events the first shot at the three slots. Currently in the US, I believe the A-class, F-18, and H-16 are getting the highest numbers to their major regattas (in the case of the A-class, 42 boats at the midwinters and 30 at the North Americans) so if this is used for the 2007 event, I think these classes should get the first shot.

It would be my responsibility as class president to determine ASAP if our class would provide a participant and I think I should have a deadline to get back to the Alter Cup chairman. If we do not produce a rep, the committee should have other classes in mind if they have not already been selected.

Bob Hodges
USACA President

Bob,

My I ask why you think it is wise to give a wild card to a sailor who was present at a large class event over one that actually finished high in one of the larger area qualifiers ?

This sailor may even have ended up lower then 2nd or 3nd in his own qualifier or he may not have attended his own area qualifier at all ?

Surely the Alter Cup should be a fleet race pitching the best against the best ? And how better to determine who is best then by seperating the men from the bouys, ehh boys, at the open class qualifiers ?

Don't you agree that a sailor should get a wild card only because he is a very good sailor that will otherwise be sorely missed at the Alter Cup event. Not because he happens to sail an particulary large class.

There are only a handful of boats in the US Tornado fleet, but still it is probable that such a crew can beat any and all sailors who attended a 40 boat nationals of a different class.

Why should any sailor get a free pass simply because he is lucky enough to sail a particular kind of craft ?

What if the top 5 of the F18 nationals all win their area qualifiers ? Should we then also put number 6th of that event in the Alter cup even when we already know that he is the 6th best of the F18 sailors ? Maybe there are a few sailors of other makes about that will easily have his beacon too, but came second at their qualifiers. Shouldn't they be giving the slot then ? What if some F18 crews in line decline and we end up at the crew placed 10 or higher ?

Wouter

Yo JW, give me a ring.

I don't think that changing the current system is neccessarily the right way to go.

This year Nacra had 17 N20's and 14 N17's. They would have to choose between these classes for the Alter Cup. What if we had 17 N17's and 14 N20's? Nacra would probably choose the N17 and possibly leave the N20 champion without a spot. I can also see putting the power into the Altercup committee's hands but then this becomes a political battleground with possible hurt feelings.

I look at Hobie this year and see that the H16 should definitely get the nod but then they are probably going to choose the H17 as their other class. This possibly isn't the way that it should shake out. They may choose the H20 champion though I'm not sure? They also often supply the boats to the events and should get some benefits from that.

I'm also of the belief that the A cat's and the F18's need a spot currently. I'm not sure that this will always continue in the future. There is nothing wrong with a manufacturer picking the F18 class winner as their represenative.

Let's see. We have 10 areas
2 Hobie
2 Nacra
1 Olympic
1 Rotating
1 Returning Alter Cup Champ
3 Petition

If anything I can see you moving one of the petition slots to rotating so that you have 2 rotating and 2 petition slots.

Remeber that we often have the same person qualifying in different ways. We should always give precidence to heavily attended events.

Oh Yeah and Congrats to Ollie and Kelly. You guys rock!!!

Mike Hill

As neither Hobie nor Nacra is supplying the boats this year can we then have 1 of their slots so the current supplier can appoint a crew. As to get some benefit for supplying the boats as well ?

You can't claim it if you don't give it out.

Wouter

Well if the F16's held a Nationals with significant competition then I'm sure that they would also get a slot, I'm sure. The Alter Cup Committee will cross that bridge when it comes.

Let's also consider that some Nationals are a lot easier to win than others. While none are easy we could rank them in order of toughness. This ranking will change every year. Right now I think it would go something like the following. My apologies if I leave a class out I haven't spent the time to analyze all of the players.

1. Tornado
2. F18
3. H16
4. N20
5. N17
6. A Class
7. H20
8. H17
9. H14
10. Isotope
11. Shark
12. Nacra F18
13. N6.0

This is just my opinion. I'm sure I just pissed off a bunch of sailors.

And Wouter since the Alter Cup is run by US Sailors for US Sailors I'm not sure why your opinion even matters.

Mike Hill

Fleet "Final
Standing" Helmsperson Crew Sail No.
18 1 MARSHACK, KEN MARSHACK, DEBBIE 15897
18 2 COOLEY, STEVE COOLEY, SABRINA 16759
18 3 SOHN, JAMES KING, KRISTEN 16892
18 4 MAURI, JUAN FAVELA, ROD 12024
18 5 RAUGHLEY, DAVID CAREY, VALARIE 16934
18 6 EVENDEN, PAUL GROESZ, VALARIE 16769
18 7 CRONAN, ROBERT CRONAN, LAURIE 13413
18 8 MIMLITCH, ROBERT H MIMLITCH, SUE 16846
18 9 KUNEY, GEORGE BLOOMGARDEN, SUSAN 12
18 10 THOMSON, GILLIAN PARK, TERRY 15852
18 11 JOHNSON, ROBERT SINCLAIR, CAMPBELL 15976
18 12 SHEDD, CORY PUCKETT, ERNIE 9471
18 13 GODBOLD, GARY N/A, N/A 15924
18 14 TERNULLO, FRANK LONG, PATRICIA 15986
18 15 PECK, BRENT ELLIS, CLINT 16918
18 16 BOUSCHOR, DAVID COKER, DUANE 7877
18 17 ISAACKS, VICKI COKER, LOUELLEN 12853

Pissed off maybe some of these sailors? Congrats to Ken and George for passing the test at qualifiers.

Mike,

Other than your winning (congrats <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) and some kind of Hobie 14 pre-Nationals warm up race we heard nothing of the Area K qualifier results at Clear Lake, and none are listed on US Sailing.

Mind giving us a recap? Did anyone make it close? How many boats?

Thanks

Perhaps we should go back to the orginal format and the one used by all of the other US Sailing championships, with the modification that 20 slots are available.

The assumption behind 10 slots to Area Champions and 10 slots to National winners is that the area championship are hotly contested! So, in most areas this is not the case.

If two or more slots were available in a region based on turnout perhaps interest would go up.

The alternative is to just pick teams from the nationals.
Certainly would be a lot less work!

[quote]Let's also consider that some Nationals are a lot easier to win than others. While none are easy we could rank them in order of toughness. This ranking will change every year. Right now I think it would go something like the following. My apologies if I leave a class out I haven't spent the time to analyze all of the players.

1. Tornado
2. F18
3. H16
4. N20
5. N17
6. A Class
7. H20
8. H17
9. H14
10. Isotope
11. Shark
12. Nacra F18
13. N6.0
[quote]

Let's see here. Here's a partial of the top five at the A-Class North Americans:

Lars Guck - Three time runner-up in the Tornado class Olympic Trials, V-15 National Champ, Intercollegiate All American, International Canoe World Champion

Phil Kinder - 2006 A-Class Midwinter Champ (42 boats), Intercollegiate All American

Bob Hodges - Snipe Midwinter Champion (1986), Laser Master National Champion (1994), F-18HT North Americans, 3rd 2003 Alter Cup

Ben Hall - twice A-Class NA champion and has won numerous national and north american titles in a bunch of classes (keelboats and dinghies)

Pete Melvin - 2 time A-class World Champion, former ISAF Youth World Champion, 3 time A-Class NA Champion among others

Yep, we suck!

John,
Why can't you just simplify this by using the same guidelines (except only for multihull classes) that are used for the US Sailing Championship of Champions, with the modification that 10 of the 20 slots will be allocated to the winners of the Area Qualifiers?

Forget the petitions and forget the Olympic Class. Forget giving specific number of slots to specific class associations or manufacturers, because that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

In other words, for the remaining 10 slots, the winners of either National or North American Championships of any one-design multihull classes during the prior year can submit their bids to be in the Alter Cup. This could even include winners of, like, the Corsair 28R Nationals, for instance.

If more than 10 skippers want to enter, the Alter Cup Committee would have to make the decision about whom to accept and whom to cut, just as they do in the Championship of Champions.

If less than 10 skippers want to enter (and/or if you have vacant spots from the area qualifiers), petitions would only be used as a backup to fill the empty slots and they should also come from high-placing sailors in National or North American Championships during the prior year and NOT as "representatives" designated by manufacturers or class associations.

Let me take a run at ranking cat classes. (since I can't sleep anyway)

1. A-Cat - Due to depth of skill and number of sailors
2. Tornado - The top teams are Pros- no #'s
3. H16 - The shear number of sailors and events breed great racers. Don't knock it until you've tried it.
4. F18
5. Hobie Tiger-more #'s & depth than both N20 & Nacra F18
6. Nacra F18-Great skill at the top, but not the depth of the Tiger Fleet
7.N20-Usually the same players as the Nacra F18 Fleet, just not as many boats
8. N17
9. Wave-Boarders on being a regional niche boat

The rest are niche boats. I think anyone who has gotten in to the top 5 in any of the above could make a pretty serious run at winning those classes. The old Hobie classes still have their die hards and specialists, but their appeal of the boat for whatever reason, takes away from their participation, thus the depth of the fleet.
H20
H17
H14
Not really sure about what order to put the old Hobies in, but I do know that the venerable 14 is staging quite a comeback on the National level

Isotope
Shark
N6.0
these three classes are really only raced regionally, so the numbers of participants is low.

I also do not like seperating out individual F18 manufacturer classes. Hopefully that will go away in the not too distant future.

Disclaimer: My opinions can change with reasonable discussion &/or enough rum <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Don't forget that it's been several years since a US sailor won the H-16 North Americans.

Top finish this year was Bob Merrick in 5th.

Puerto Rico, Guatemala, Brazil, Mexico were the nationalities of the top four (and yes, I know that PR is technically part of the US, but not in international sports).

There are some really good ideas in this thread - when I get back to Jacksonville, I think I'm going to have to print this topic to take to the meeting.

I appreciate the input, but I'd suggest that any effort to "rank" the classes against each other is futile and counter-productive. I can only think of one or two people off the top of my head that have competed in all of the classes specified here - those are probably the only folks that can be truly objective. The rest of us just don't have the whole picture, no matter how well-intentioned and honest. It is a great topic for a friendly bar room debate after a race, but has little bearing on the topic. I don't think the Multihull Council would ever engage in any sort or effort to pidgeonhole fleets with respect to how talented, competitive, or deep they might be.

Remember that the current rules of how to invite teams to Alter Cup were concieved during a time when there were predominantly two "brands" hosting national events for their fleets - it wasn't always that way, and now it isn't really the case anymore... hence the discussion. But whether you agree with the method or not, surely we can all see that the format invigourated the event and raised the level of the whole idea of an invitational one-design US championship.

So, for the future, we need to continue to modify the format to mirror the evolution of our national makeup, and keep the door into the event clear and attainable.

Truly - thanks for all these ideas. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Acat230,


What you are doing is called "bootstrapping".


You justify that the named A-cat skippers are very good in general (over all classes) by naming how many times they won an A-cat event.

When a sailor wins his class event then it only says something about his relative skill compared to the other crews in the class. It does not say anything about his skills in absolute sense.

Lets forget about any dinghy wins also. I have yet to see a dinghy champion to make quick and succesful transition to a catamaran. The two designs are just extremely different in how they need to be handled. Rig tuning is completely different, can't tack on shifts easily enough and the speeds are so much higher that correct sail trim is much more critical.

What I mean here is that you can grasp the 49-er world champion and put him on a tornado and they will come last in any international Tornado event. That is has much dinghy experience helps racing cats. And that applies the otherway around as well.

So what are we left with here ?





So his skills come from sailing Tornado's and not A-cats. These Tornado skills should be more then sufficient to win him a slot through either the Olympic boat slot or his area qualifier slot. No point in awarding him a third slot through the A-cat class.





nothing besides A-cat class wins





Which F18HT north americans was that, the one with 7 or 8 boats participating ? By this standard any cat class can claim a slots. And there are many more 3rd spot (or any other spot like 2nd) Alter Cup crews over the past years. Only the WINNER of the Alter Cup gets to return. All others have the fight to win back their slot.





nothing besides A-cat class wins





nothing besides A-cat class wins unless you really want to count his youth class win of about 20 years ago.




I don't think anyone said that. Apart from you that is.

If anything your summary shows that the best of the US A-cats sailors have trouble winning anything other the A-cat races. Should therefor the A-cat class be given a reserved slot for each annual Alter Cup event ?

If this is still your claim then that is hardly reasonable or fair, is it ?

And if these A-cat skippers are so good anyway, why couldn't they win their own area qualifiers ? Just like Charley Ogletree and Ken Marschack did, sailing an A-cat?

Or didn't these sailors you name even bother to participate in their area qualifier ? If so then why should they be given a slot to the Alter Cup event anyway ? Try explaining that to the other sailors who actually did put in alot of effort and raced hard to win a slot.

Wouter

ermmm....Paul Elvstrom?



Just because you state it Wouter doesn't make it true. I think you're waaaay off the point of discussion here and your argument is without substance. Sorry.

Who ?





Just because I said it doesn't make it "NOT true" either.

I sailed the 49-er for a while and I know how it is different to a cat.

Wouter

Nice one. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mary,

I really like your proposal. Makes it simple and much, much more competitive than the current format. Isn't it all about the competition?

My 2 cents,
Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey Rolf,


I know who he is. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/profiles/bio_uk.asp?par_i_id=37250

Point being of course that he did not make a quick nor very succesful transition to a catamaran.

He won many monohull championships and was 13 times World champion in no less then 7 different monohulls. However his best result in cats came in the form of a European championship and 4th at the Olympics in 1984. Quite meager for a 13 times world champion dinghy sailor. By that time he had over 25 years of racing experience in dinghies.

He was a very good sailor but his dinghy credidentials didn't assure great succes in a catamaran class in the way it did with respect to other dinghy classes. Also we are talking about a sailor with his prime several decades ago, both dinghies and cats have gotten very technical since then. I think prebend rigs we're invented around 1985.

My point still stands.

Wouter

WTF? 4th in the Olympics is meager? Does 2 silver medals make Smyth average then?

I would not be so quick to jugde Paul Elvstrøm. Remember that he helmed from the trapeze and ran the mainsheet while Trine (now married with Gøran Marstrøm) trimmed the jib. He was not a youth anymore either. I think an european championship and a fourth at the olympics is a splendid result and proof of both a succesful crossover and deep knowlegde of how to sail a cat.

Was Paul sailing Tornados as late as the 84 games?

This guy won 13 world championships and 4 olympic gold medals and ofcourse many many many more local championships like Europeans and such. All of which in many different dinghy classes, 7 in total. So many succesful transitions from one design to another.

Then he switches to cats and doesn't win any olympic medals or anything else, he only wins the European champion thing.

Would you call this a succesful transition to cats when you compare it to his previous achievements ?




It certainly makes Smyth better on a catamaran then Paul Elvstrom, meaning I would like to see Randy in the Alter Cup much rather then Paul. Despite the fact that Randy has much less (if any) dinghy world championships then Paul.

THAT my dear friends is my point all along. The number of dinghy championships under your belt says not much at all about how well you can sail cats and is therefor a bad indication whether you should be in the Alter Cup event.

Wouter

For a 56 year old having sailed for fun with his daughter for just a year before the games, yes. I would definately call it a successful transition to cats. I would call anybody with a Kielerwoche win, an European championship and a fourth at the olympics, missing a bronze medal to Rob White in the last race, a very successful catamaran sailor. He did even better in other classes which was more homogenous, but that does not mean that he was not a succesful catamaran racer. You dont go to the olympics in any class without being an successful racer in the class, in my opinion (he beat the norwegian team, and I know what effort they made and how good those guys are).
Elvstrom could probably still beat both you and me speedwise on an F-16 (just dont make that long man do manouvers at his age).

Don't twist the point guys,

The point is whether the number of dinghy wins/championship wins is a good indication of whether somebody should be prefered over another sailor with no such wins for participating in the Alter Cup.

Clearly a sailor with NO dinghy champions under his belt (Randy Smyth) wins 2nd place in a Olympic cat event where a (13 + 4) dinghy championship title holder finishes 4th.

Now you tell me the indicative value of holding dinghy championships especially if they are from a different time era ?

Or in simple terms; should Randy or Paul be invited to the Alter Cup of 1984 (if Paul were American) ?


Wouter

Paul Elvstrøm was one succesful dinghy sailor who more or less jumped over on a cat and did well. That was my point and my whole basis for the above discussion.

I am not able to compare Smyth to Elvstrøm and say which one should participate in the Alter cup. As long as they qualified by winning a major class or event, I would love to see them both.

Yes, it's all about competition. And the spots at the Alter Cup should be "earned" (in a pre-ordained way), not "designated or assigned."

Mike,

My response to your ranking order was tongue in cheek, I was messing around but it certainly provoked a long winded response from you know who. I have to remember he is lurking about.

Bob

I SUGGEST THAT WE OPEN UP A SPOT IN THE ALTER CUP FOR WOUTER
TO COME AND GET PUT IN HIS PLACE , I WILL PAY ALL EXPENSES!
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH WITH THESE ATTACKS ON ANYONE AND EVERONE.
I RARELY EVER POST BUT CAN NOT HOLD BACK ON THIS ONE. AND UNTILL HE HAS BEEN TO AN A CAT EVENT, WHERE ALMOST EVERONE HAS WON SOME SORT OF TITLE HE WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE DEPTH OF THIS TALENT POOL.
RESPECTFULLY BUT TIRED OF THE ANIMOSITY, BRET MOSS

Sorry Bret,




No I don't and I will show you why.


A counter example :

Number 6 at the 30 boat A-cat nationals 2006 finished 4th in his 21 boat fleet qualifier. At double the points then the team at place 3.

This guy was the highest ranking A-cat sailor (nationals 2006) to have participated in his qualifier.



Another counter example :

Lars Guck won all 14 races during the 2006 nationals ending up at 12 points overall (2 strike-outs)
Phill Kinder had a subscription to 2nd place here and ended up at 31 points overall
And Bob Hodges (3rd) was never much danger to #1 and #2 as he ended up at 58 points overall
Number 4, Ben Hall, his high scores were a single 2nd, a single 3rd and a single 4th bringing him to 72 overall.
Pete Melvin, number 5, ended up at 82 points in total. Guess it was not his event as he also scored a 29th, 27th, 26th and a 24th (Is this the reigning A-cat world champion ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ). With such wipe-outs in a 30 boat fleet he shouldn't be in 5th overall if the other sailors knew a thing or two about sailing fast (depth ?).


This was not a particulary hotly contested event was it now ? The first indication that a class may not have much depth.


Counter example number 3 :

Number 6th (out of 30) at the A's also raced in the F18 north Americans and got 14th (out of 40). So I guess the F18 fleet was just a tad more challenging.

At least number 7 at the F18 nationals (40 boats) won his qualifier after a hot battle with number 2 of that same F18 event. With number 14 and 16 ending up at 4th and 5th in the same qualifier. All raced in a 21 boat qualifier.

So I call BS to any "special depth" claim to the A-cat class. It is just like any other class and as such it is nothing special.

Now it is time the A-catters themself learn this. Just as they have to learn that the racing doesn't stop at the first A-mark. (sorry I couldn't resist that)


If your claim is however that I'm a little arguative know-it all then I'm afraid that you are 100 % correct.


Wouter

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT AGAIN!!!! WERE YOU ABUSED AS A CHILD? WHO IS THE REIGNING A CAT WORLD CHAMP? OFFER STILL STANDS, IF YOU ARE NOT RECOVERED FROM YOUR LAST VISIT ACROSS THE POND. OVER AND OUT., BRET

Now this is funny!

Brett,

Just face it, we suck.

Bob

WOUT,

TAKE HIS OFFER! You'd get to go for FREE!!!!

Who cares if you don't win. IT'S FREE!!!

Well it was a bit chilly and windy. The first day was in 8-12 knots. We got 5 races in if I remember right. Really a good day of racing. Wes Wilcox on an N20 was in second with Brett and Jen on a N18 close on my heels in all the races. When scoring was complete I managed to cover the time in most races. There were some absolutely crazy shifts with huge puffs suddenly filling from one side or the other. Makes it really hard to be consistent. You could easily be first or last to the first mark. I had a couple of races where I had to make up quite a bit after rounding A mark.

The second day was quite a bit windier with gusts around 20 knots. The races were fast and you just had to have a great start to come out on top. We got two quick races in and hit the shore early. That was nice to get home at a decent hour for me. I had about an 8 hour drive home.

We had a really fun regatta with a good mix of boats. I think there was like 15-17 boats there of all different makes and models. We even had like 5 H14's which they luckily put in a different class.

It's a nice lake though a bit small. No weeds or shallows so I was happy.

Mike Hill

Your words, my friend, not mine.

I only argued against you guys being exceptionally special, as in moreso then most other classes.

I'm an irritating little know-it-all, but not stupid or malignant.

Wouter

OK John, I have to ask. Is the date for Alter Cup really August 11-16 (in Florida?), and why is Robbie holding the "Sears Cup" in the photo?

Ken
Oh, and your e-mail address on the Alter Cup web site does not work.

I'll second that.

All in favor....