A-class help

Firstly, hello!

My name’s Andrew and I’m based in Southampton (UK). I’m currently sailing an RS300 (for overseas readers – it’s the lovechild of a Finn and a moth) that I love to bits but hanker for something a little hotter. There aren’t many options for us singlehanders who fancy going fast which is why I’ve decided to broaden my options by giving cat sailing a go.

The boat that I’m most attracted to is the A-class, they look stunning and I love the relative purity of the uni-rig. I fully intend to test sail an A beforehand (as well as an f16, just to make sure I don’t fancy a kite – though 2 years of battling with an rs700 taught me that singlehanders are more fun when you’re in control and KISS) as this is a big commitment to make.

I’m currently 96kg (~210lbs) and working my way down to 90kg (~198lbs) before I get a boat. I realise that this still pretty heavy for an A but as I’m keeping my rs300 for the circuit I need to stay at 85kg (~187lbs) minimum. This leads to the main gist of my query:

What are the various designs like at handling skipper weight? I’ve read various reports of the marstroem coping well with weight but they’re quite rare and (relatively) expensive and was wondering how the newer designs stack up, e.g. how would an A2 fare against a flyer?

Also, what experiences do people here have of the newer designs (tool, balance, etc)?

I look forward to any replies and apologise for the length of the post…


P.s. I would have posted this on the A-class forum but it’s a bit dead over there and most topics are lucky if they garner more than 1 reply. You guys are chattier

Andrew give the UK A-Class lads a call, they would only be too happy to help you out, I went from a F18 Tiger to a A-class a few years back and never looked back. They are a easy boat to sail but hard to sail fast, it all come down to time on the water. http://www.aclasscatamaran.co.uk/contacts.html

i had a quick chat with a couple of them at a recent open meeting and have scoured the uk and international websites.

i'm touting for info on here as the british A's all seem to be variations of flyer (+ the new xj's from jjcats) and i was wondering what people thought about the other designs that i haven't really seen in this country (e.g. A2, tool, balance).

your comments regarding 'easy to sail, difficult to master' are precisely how i envisage an A, and is precisly what i'm looking for <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As far as class legal singlehanders go, you have a few choices:

Acat
F16
F17 (Nacra F17, previously known as the Inter 17 - not to be confused with a formula class)
Hobie 17

I also believe that some of the Hobie classes stipulate a minimum weight but do not stipulate that there must be two persons on board. Did I miss any?

Dart 18 can be sailed class legal one-up with main only.
Fantastic boat if you are in an area with alot of breeze, otherwise a litle short on sail area.

Remember this is the UK, so there are more options. You also have the Shadow.

However, the best option would be a F16 (yes I have one), you can tune it a little more to your "fuller figure <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ".

If you want to go for a sail sometime let me know (I'm based at Grafham) or another option would be to contact JohnP (member under that name here) and get him to arrange a Demo of the Stealth F16 at Datchet - he builds them).

Don't write off the Kite option, Cats are far easier to get going when learning to sail with the kite compared to the 700. Much less swimming as you have a more stable platform (oh and they are just a little faster )



Your options in the UK are:

Shadow (but IMO not so good for the larger sailor)
F17 / Inter 17 (I had one of these before the F16, but there are not many around the UK)
F16 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
A Class

F16 and A class allow you to set the boat up more as you require and you can also spec a stiffer mast for more power.

Added advantage of the F16 is that you can sail 2 up by adding the jib.

any cat can be raced singlehanded (keeping in mind safety issues, ability to right, etc) in open racing with a DPN modifier. Unless you are lucky enough to have a bona fide class in your area then it doesn't matter.
I have decided to have no class, and will push my classless agenda on everyone else <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I am new to the A class and sail an older Waterat. They are easy to sail, but definately have a steep learning curve when it comes to maximizing speed. Beyond that, I would choose an A over an F-16 because of the consistant develpoment going on in the class. I sail at 185-190#. My boat handles that well enough. The Tool from Australia and the new Scheurer 5 are supposed to be designed to handle heavier sailors. Again, you can look at the UK site, http://www.aclasscatamaran.co.uk/contacts.html

The A is like a fine wine and a cat with a kite is like a strong Vodka, it depends what you are looking for? They both get you drunk!!!
Andrew have a go on as many boats as you can, it builds a better picture. With regards to the A's platforms, there is nothing free in the world of boat design, all designs have strong and weak points. Most of the current crop of designs are in the same ball park, just get a rig and sail to fit your weight and go sailing.

Simon, if I'm reading between the lines correctly, are the A's going to get a bit of time off the F16's in SCHRS? (Just doing a but of fishing)

thanks for all the replies guys.

i'd already cut the decision down to A-class or F16, the shadow looks nice but agree that it's a bit underpowered for a gentleman of my proportions...

as i said, i'm intending to test both. good looking though the stealth is, most A's are completely georgeous and as a ship designer myself that's the catch.

[quote]The A is like a fine wine and a cat with a kite is like a strong Vodka, it depends what you are looking for? They both get you drunk!!!

Dave Carlson has some pics of a Fuller Woodie that he runs with a kite. Tried to attach one of the pics, but am having trouble doing that.

I cannot comment as we do not yet have signoff from the ISAF on the new rule. We hope to be able to announce some things at the beginning of Feb, and then have a further update by the end of Feb. As I've said, it is all pending ISAF signoff.

In the UK the A-cat and F16 class have developped quite an interesting relationship, it seems. They hold combined National events and seem to hang out together a few times as year.

Something as is done at the combined Gulfport A-cat/F16 invitational in Florida USA.

So despite the usual bickering I think both class do indeed get along quite well. Hell, the bickering is halve the fun ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />





I think this is flash from the past. Back then indeed the A's did nearly all of the development but these days and also since several years, I think the Formula classes do at least the same amount of development if not more.

Personally I think the F18's have a larger turn-over in development now then the A's. Pretty much for the simple reason that this is MORE to develop on a spinnaker equipped and sloop rigged doublehander then there is on a catrigged singlehander. Spinnaker sailing as a whole, T-foils, selftacking fully battened jibs and all that were never developped by A's. Even a very large portion of the squaretop mainsail development was done in the F18's after the A's come up with the idea in the late 80's. Prebend mast sail design was a Tornado development.

The last true development in the A's was the flyer hullshape and that was over 10 years ago. Since then they are moving their daggerboard around a little and fine-tuning their carbon masts but no great effects have been achieved. There have been no real new ideas in the A-cats since then.

The lastest true development in sailing was done by the moths, by going to full foiling. The fore last was assymmetric spinnaker sailing done by the F18's. The A's are, I'm sorry to say, living of past glory a little bit. Especially so as like the F18's the F16's are doing alot of their own development now.

Which isn't the same as saying that the A's aren't great boats.

But the next quote is telling :




Who would have thought 10 years ago that a heavier aluminium based 16 foot singlehander, at 3/4 the cost would be pressed into being rated faster then the undisputed King of the sailing course of the time ?

This puts the question of which class sees more development into a different light, doesn't it ?





You should indeed test sail both these boats. You will go home with one of these for sure. With respect to F16's in particular, take a look at the Blade F16's in addition to the Stealth F16's. If you arrange to be at Datchet sailing club sometime then you can test sail both of these F16's and compare them directly.

The attached picture is of the Blade F16 I mentioned, shown in doublehanded mode. You have already seen pics of the Stealth I gether.




The European Blade F16 dealer is himself an old A-cat sailor. Again, you see how closely these two classes are related at different levels. He has excellent contacts in the A-cat carbon mast development/production. Personally I would be very interested in seeing a crossover between the F16 basic setup (wider platform with a spinnaker) and the A-cat carbon mast expertise. This guy will be able to deliver a top product on both accounts. Well worth a closer look I figure. Such an F16 (including the selftacking jib for the occasional doublehanded sailing) shouldn't cost more then an modern A-cat.





For info on the class go to :

http://www.formula16.org


Our very active class forum is at :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Fleet45

After 12664 postings in 1141 threads I think it can safely be characterized as "very active". You don't have to worry about getting any replies there ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

There are heaps of pictures there. The "best of the best" section needs updating as there are a score of better pictures in the events folder. But I'm trailing a little bit behind on my duties.

And this is also a good time to write down the disclaimer, as required. I own a F16 myself and have been an active member for many years in this class. I'm racing the European Blade dealor in my club races and had great fun biting at his heels this year as I'm not as good a sailor as he is. He is about 15 years in (A-cat) experience ahead of me.

Good luck and also best of enjoyment wished to you when you test sail both boats.

Wouter

thanks for the thorough reply wouter, having read this forum for the last month i'm fully aware of the f16 section and the discussions which have been taking place there.

i've checked out the f16 website many times in the last month or so, switching to cats is not a decision that you make without carrying out some extensive research first (it's even on my list of bookmarks <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). i've seen a blade in action actually. i'm in the process of switching from hayling island s.c. to weston s.c. and there is a blade already racing at weston. i know that it has been very popular since being launched and i can appreciate what it is trying to achieve (sawn-off flyer hull with kite) but the shape doesn't really do it for me. the hulls are too short for the reverse rake on the bow and it looks too stubby (as i said earlier, i'm a qualified naval architect so my comments are based on more than pure aesthetics).

the f16s are bound to be making greater strides in terms of development as their rule is newer and so designers are still finding their way around it. the A wont make any huge evolutionary leap unless the rule is altered or a new material is discovered. the A had it's big chance to make the leap in speed with the hydrofoil debate but this was turned down. this isn't necessarily a bad thing, it shows that the A is about more than outright speed, the A has chosen to become the ultimate distillation of simplicity and skill.

bugger... i knew this would happen! as soon as i posted a question about A classes i knew it would descend into an f16 debate <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. oh well. anybody got any opinions on the A-class desings?

Sorry about my off the mark response. I hadn't realized that you had already done the research.

Wouter

If you are looking at new boats, you can no longer get an AHPC Flyer. Those boats are now Flyer 2 and made by Gel Tec of Australia. Former manager to Boyer is building the boats. He has teamed up with Glen Ashby and the combination won every race at the last Worlds. There may be some deliveries to Europe. I have a 02 Flyer that I love to sail. The Nacre A3 looks perhaps a little "sexier". Any of these boats will work for you. My son sails a Flyer at around 200 pounds and is not slow. He came in 5th at the 04 Nationals. Best advice I can give you is to look at what is available in your area. In the US we have two manufactures (Nacra A3 and Vector Bim XJ), plus a pipeline from Australia. What is available for you considering shipping and dollar valuation may be very different. There are some other options that may be available to you. Look into the Scheurer G5. Also the DK17 looks like the A3, but is designed for a larger skipper. Steve Clark has a set of molds in the US. I do not know of the availability in Europe. I know Nacra sends containers to Europe and they could possibly add an A3 to the container, thus reducing shipping costs.
AT 200 pounds you should be able to kick butt upwind, the real learning curve will be making the boat go fast downwind. Not just because of your weight, but because that is were the experienced separate from the inexperienced
.

Don't know much about the Balance A-cat, so ...

But I do know that "The Tool" was evaluated by Pieter Saarberg in the Netherlands. I don't know the ins and outs of it but it is my perception that Pieter is now importing "The Tool" instead of the Boyer A-cats (+ flyer) he used to import.

It may be that he also deals in the new Geltek Flyer 2 but I haven't seen that boat yet at hsi workshop so I don't really know. He also never mentioned it to me. We did talk about the Tool as that one was right in front of his shop when I went to the sailmaker next door.

It is a nice looking boat without a dolphinstriker setup (= glued in non-constant wall carbon beams)

His comments were that he was very pleased with the design, he felt it to be better then the Flyer. However I don't know how the Flyer 2 has progressed from the orginal Flyer and so I can't give you any info on that.

I must have some pictures laying around let me see if I can find those.

...

I can't find my own pics of Saarbergs boat. I guess I lost them. They did mostly show the construction details and such.

If you haven't found the links to the Tool websited here they are :

http://www.thetool.com.au/

Here the confirmation that Pieter is indeed dealing in the Tool A-cat

http://www.a-cat.org/id102.htm


But as Boyer fibrecraft no longer exists I don't know who is producing this boat now. The latest I heared about the Tool moulds is that Jim Boyer gave them back to the real owner. I guessing that that is Wayne Mercer himself. But I haven't heared about him having a production facility.

Was this the kind of into you were looking for ?

Wouter

Andrew,

I am about your weight and sail a DK17, I built it last winter with Steve Clark's help. The Hulls were designed for a larger person, with more volume high in the stern. Both Steve and Dirk as couple other DK owners are all heavier than you. Dirk Kramer (DK) designed the hulls, (17 for the 17th version of the design). Dirk is an Alighi designer. Steve's experience was that more volume in the stern would keep the boat from squatting downwind. His experience on the Flyer was that he couldnt sit far enough forward in moderate air downwind while going wild. Both Steve and Dirk went from the Flyer to the DK17.

If you are interested, PM me and I'll put you in contact with Steve, he might be willing to make you a set of Hulls and ship them over in a Vanguard container bound for Europe.
We've got a good low cost source for carbon beams too (www.forterts.com), so you'd only need to buy a Mast, rudders, daggers locally and fit them to the boat. We've got a good source for tramps too, Kinder Industries in RI. That could easily go in the container with the hulls and beams.

The other option is to ask if he'd be willing to send you the stations on mylar in the mail. You could strip plank in foam off plywood stations.

As far as the A2, I have compared the A2 hull volume to the DK17 and it is noticable less, most of the guys that have been successful on the A2 are all lightweights. Pete Melvin looks like he's 150lbs. I'd recommend the Xj over the A2. I know a number of the guys sailing the XJ in New England and they are very happy with it.

The A2 has gone thru a number of core changes, they started with Balsa, now its either Nomex or foam. I've seen a case of pretty serious delamination on one of the first A2's. I havent seen any serious delaminations or failures on any of the XJ's. The A3 has the beam moved aft 6inches, thats a pretty significant change in my opinion and tells me that Pete got the beam position wrong on the A2.

my 2cents

Bill

I predominately race solo on a Stealth F16 but have also been able to take out my friends 2005 Auz Flyer. I'm a bit lighter than you at 168lbs but have found that nothing (almost) is better than sailing an 'A' upwind, you just wont stop smiling or being amazed at your speed. On the other side of the coin, taking a F16 downwind solo can also be very exciting. However, you only tend to start smiling when the kite is back in it's snuffer and you're rounding the leeward mark.
I have always raced boats with kites so buying a F16 made sense to me but if your background is Lasers and the like then you wouldn't really miss one. Both UK F16 & 'A' Fleets are quite small and this makes for a really friendly after sail session.
There are a few second hand F16's & 'A's on the market all relatively new, but not meaning to be rude given your weight I think you are more suited to the 'A'. Send me a PM if you want more details of 'A's or F16's which are for sale. (I'm going skiing tomorrow so I wont be replying for a little while)

Andrew I am 102kg and looking for a one up boat and have found no problem getting offers to ride one and I would say go for it. Last Saturday I was leant an older A for a 17km regatta on a day that went from laying under the mast and bagging up to on the wire and tight as with wind shifts. They are a really satisfying boat if you like instant response to any alteration. The other thing I find attractive about the light boats is I can tie it high in the shed above the Stingray and only use up one boat space in the shed. Im no expert but from what I've read heavier guys like us get sails cut fuller to power up and seem to lower the diamond spreader tension if they need to flatten the sail a bit.
regards

Hi Andrew,

I guess it would have been my Blade you saw down at Weston. The boat's actually kept at Datchet, but I was down there for the cat open drift-a-thon last year.

I've never sailed a fast asymmetric monohull, but I've seen enough people swimming near RS700s and the like to know that single-handing a cat+spi is a different game. Getting the last few percent of speed is still a big challenge, but it doesn't take long to learn how to stay dry and have a blast.

It wasn't you I gave a ride to in Garda this summer, was it?

Paul

hi paul,

yeah, i was watching at the weston drift a couple of months ago and no it wasn't me in garda.

the 700 was an utter beast of a boat. the speed and power downwind (and upwind for that matter) was awesome, but gybing was always a 50-50 chance. if i had really knuckled down and practiced i probably could have got on with it, as it was i just got depressed about having to try and compete with loads of skiff experts. the appeal of the f16 is "the thrill of the 700 but with stabilisers on" which probably shows my total ignorance and misguided beliefs about cat sailing <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. would this be even vaguely acurate?

to everyone else who's responded - thank you very much for your help. it has shown some interesting questions which i need to bottom out; my nearest Acat supplier claims to be an agent for the AHPC flyer yet people here are telling me that they've stopped producing this with the introduction of the gel-tec flyer2. i'm also going to have to send mr. saarberg an e-mail to find out what's going on with the tool (the catamaranparts website is completely blank on the a-class page)

I've done a bit of 49-er sailing myself (after I had about 7 years of catsailing on my resume) and it is my opinion that the two experiences are considerable different. Not so much better or worse but different.

The exciting of a skiff (for me at least) is the high octane adrenaline rush when you are succesful keeping the boat upright and executing the manouvres with ballet like control. I found this to be a high pitched rush, but also extremely tiring. Over halve the time your mind is with control and staying on your toes, the racing comes second.

Catamarans, even when fitted with spinnakers, do not provide this high pitched thrill unless it is blowing nuclear. Not that there isn't a thrill to cats, there certainly is, but it is a different kind of thrill. The cats produce a much more lower pitch excitement that humms away over long periods of time. The excitement of cats is the speed and going faster and faster while being in full control. Racing cats is more like fox hunting. You can zero in on your opponent and battle him for as long as 1, 2, 3 hours or even more and still be going strong. The excitement comes from knowing the other won't tip it in or crash and that you'll have to run him down by superior trimming and smart moves. I found sailing the cats to be far more a game of planning and strategic moves then tactics like tacking on a shift. Even with a simple manouvre like tacking on a shift you have to think it over. Is the gain large enough to correct out over the initial loss, which on cats is quite big. Tacking on most shifts is a sure way to loose a race on cats as it kills your speed too much. And all this does happen at noticeably higher speeds. So the excitement builds up during the race but is less high strung, it is more of a game of who blinks first. I personally find this dueling much more enjoyable. Also because on our club race day we can do this for about 2 to 3 hours.

When I sailed 49-ers I would be so tired after 30 minutes of hard sailing that my concentration would drop off leading to more and more capsizes and mishaps. I also found a Hobie 16 to simply pass us on the upwind legs EVEN if we were planing upwind. The boat demanding so much attention that I have hardly any memories of the scenery or the conditions during sailing. In cat sailing I do have several of those where the sun breaks through after a rainy start, where I've been duelling another boat for 3 hours during a long distance race. With the crews chatting when side by side beam reaching at 15-18 knots. Arguing whether the losing boat should buy the other a crate of beer or a box of wine while keeping the pedal to the metal all the time.

A catamaran is more than a skiff with stabilizers on. The are faster, especially upwind. The way they are sailed is different. The setup of racing is different and the type of exitement they produce is different in my experience. I tried to do a short distance race on a skiff once, never doing that again. Cats also allow you to take some inexperienced friend along and have them experience fast sailing. Last season my crew brought a friend with her and after 10 to 15 minutes of getting used to the boat she was trapezing off the boat handling the spinnaker sheet. Granted the water was relatively flat with a nice and stable force 3 to 4 wind but then again even in those conditions I would never have done that on a skiff like dinghy, with or without a spinnaker. When a neighbouring club invited our club to their races then we sail our boats over. Takes about 60 minutes to do so but it won't have much effect on how well our racing goes later in the day.



Wouter

For Heavier Sailors in Order

DK-17
The Tool
Geltek Flyer 2
Bim XJ or MM's A3

The tool though is a production boat made for heavier sailors. The DK17 is more of a one off design that evidently can be built for you. The A3 seems to be less likely for heavier sailors. I took a close look at the DK17 during the NA's in Bristol and was very impressed with the quality and workmanship.

Who makes The Tool and DK-17

That is about the DK17
This below is about the tool
http://www.a-cat.org/id102.htm
After the maiden trip of the first prototype in January this year the TOOL, an Australian design by Wayne Mercer, is now in full production. The new hull shape has proven to be very good in all conditions, upwind as well as downwind. Due to the new hull shape, which has more buoyancy placed through the length of the hull it is a balanced catamaran in flat water as well as in conditions with wind and waves. The wider hull shape at the rear beam provides a stiff platform to connect the rear beam to which makes it the stiffest A-cat available to date. The bow section has been designed to handle waves in rough conditions and the rear transoms have enough buoyancy to prevent the rear beam hitting the water. This makes the platform also better for those heavier sailors who have been restricted in choice by the designs available to date. All this gives the new TOOL a very nice character to sail in all conditions and makes it an all round racing machine.
Of course the latest designs of foils is used giving the lowest resistance especially at higher speeds. The Australian built hulls are the insurance for a high quality standard and durability as down under they are forced to build strong hulls for the environment they normally sail in.
The results so far in regattas already indicate that the TOOL will evolve into the cat to beat.
The TOOL will be assembled for the European market by Piet Saarberg, to keep the cost of transport down. The expected price will be from EUR 13900 exclusive VAT, ready to sail. There are already a few boats available and a normal time between order and delivery can be expected due to the capacity of Boyer Fibrecraft.

Enquiries to:
T.B. PESA
Piet Saarberg
Celsiusstraat 210
2041TR Zandvoort
Netherlands
Tel: + 31 235718695
Fax: + 31 235730102
E-mail: psaarberg@planet.nl
Mobile : +31 653408075

VAT is 19 % overhere (and that applies to any customer from the European Union)

16.541 Euro's in total excluding the shipping to your home. If you're picking it up yourself then that will add about 500 Euro's to the price.

I heard a few comments on this price from a very reliable source. So if you want to have one build at this price then first ask what the general layout is and what is made out of carbon and what is made out of aluminium/other materials. Plus what sailmaker did the sail etc.

I'm really not against aluminium, as is well known, but when comparing to other A's and other boats it is of course wise to know how the boats relate to eachother and to include VAT in the prices.

Wouter

If you want to know about the Tool than the best is to ask Piet about it and not assume a lot of things. I can tell you that the most parts are carbon and than we are talking about 95% or maybe more. The platform is extremly stiff and reliable.
I can tell you this because Piet is my father and i am close to the development of The Tool as you can be for the European market.
I think also that the Tool will be the A-class to beat the coming time, if seen the downwind performance of that boat with 18 to 20 knots and it is really flying and no other type could do this, his was during the A-cat Nationals in Holland. With less wind the boat was also quicker (down and up wind)
On the website of Catamaranparts (www.catamaranparts.nl)there will be soon more info about the boat.
The price for the boat is also not to bad if you see the carbon prices the last time .

Regards,
Hans

Links on website don't work. Will it be shiipped to US?

That,s the point we are working on this page and it will be on at the end of this week.
The best you can do is contact Piet. I will send you a PM.

Regards,
Hans