The Future of Sailing is Here

Hay I found the perfect multihull sailboat. It's a 16' trimaran that weighs only 115 lbs. You can set it up in 5 or less minutes. It’s fast and sails well in light winds. Also if you have no wind you can use its human powered propulsion system. It’s also car-top-able and dismantles in an easy to manage package. It’s currently the #1 selling sailing product in the US and Canada, and will soon be introduced internationally. It was voted the #1 recreational product for 2007 by National Geographic. Once you see it at www.hobiecat.com and whether you like it or not this is what the general sailing public wants. The future of sailing is here it’s just not obvious to those stuck in the old world of carbon fiber cats (heck the kevlar/carbon cats are not even the future of sailing). I constantly hear sailors, young and old say they are tired of all the set up time, etc. with most cats, particularly racing cats (& monohull sport boats, etc.), they just want to go sailing and have fun, and they want to spend less than $10,000. Most want to spend around $3-5000 new. They want to race but not with hard core racers.

Also regarding why Hobie will not produce a HT boat or something else, well when it ain’t broke why fix it (the H16 class is strong ((next H16 world’s; masters registration is full; will be a large turnout again like all the H16 world’s of the past – 170 competitors signed up and that number will reach well over 200)), the Tiger is doing great, and the Wave and their other roto-molded boats are consistently strong sellers). Hobie co. is very happy and very successful company, they certainly do not need to build a new light weight cat for a very small portion of the market that really is not a profitable market, and producing a new HT boat would only fragment the strong H16 & Tiger classes.

Fair winds, <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

(Is this a wind-up or not? I'll bite anyway...)

Who is the "general sailing public", are these ppl who cannot sail yet?

I guess every sailing product has its place. How long will it be before these are left in the garage because they are cheap toys (that's all they are marketed as) that will not entertain after more than a few uses. I guess the resorts may get bang for buck.

Also, 52kg isn't light so using the word "only" to describe the weight isn't really appropriate.

It may be entertaining for a little while, but it's NOT the future.

I'm nervous that these toys will actually be detrimental to the sailing community. I've heard a number of friends complain about going to a resort, hiring a dodgy boat, and not having a good time. I blame this on making it too easy for n00bs to be introduced to sailing on their own. First impressions last, current sailors should be responsible for introducing new sailors and give them a good first impression. Don't rely on products that are cheap (and look simple to us experienced sailors) to give the first impression of sailing, they often don't live up to the punters expectations for more than a few hours. Give your crew the sailing bug and encourage them to get their own boat, then get a new crew to introduce to sailing. It only takes a few skippers and owners to do this before classes will start to grow.

The laser isn't doing anything for growing sailing, all it does is suck sailors out of other classes.

Enough time wasted now, and my brain hurts from the frustration!...I think I'll go sailing in a real boat with my new crew.

(whoa, that rant was all over the place!)

http://www.hobiecat.com/adventure-island/models_adventure_island.html


And it is made by Hobie ?

I thought we just had the 1st of april !


Wouter


(This concept has been around for many years already though, this is not new by Hobie)

The AI isn't that impressive. I wonder what it rates without the drive in?

I mean yeah it is a cool idea and has uses but it isn't going to break open the sailing world. The 16 is a heavy old outdated design. Why sail something that would rather dive to the bottom than stay on the surface. Now, the tiger there is a machine, but they thing weighs 400 pounds! Look at todays top cats like the F16's and the A's. Super light super fast.

geesh...buy an ad.

The future of sailing is s kayak!?

Are you sure your name isn't Frank Mighetto?

I can see this turning into another boat bashing thread...oh wait it already has....yawn

You guys have it all wrong, click on Wouter's link, scroll down to the video clip. it's a great idea, but here's what it realy needs: Toss the skinny little Amas and hook it up with some F16 hulls, then replace that tiny stick, again, put a F16 wing mast and sails on it, now add some tramps on the Akas, and you have a real 16 foot trimaran!

In it's present configuration it would be terribly slow in anything under 25 knots of wind, and then too wet as you would be pushing those tiny amas under all the time. But I like the concept, it just needs to be pimp'd. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Frank, is that you?

Yeah those ama's look like they get pressed under easily in that video.

I wonder how that sails in a considerable wind (and chop)

Wouter

The hobie site states the weight capacity is 350lbs but I think thats pushing it. That dude in the picture doesn't look more than 250 and the boat seems to be sittin' pretty low. I'd like to see a similiar boat made of a lighter material than roto-molded plastic. Bottom line this is a cheap boat for cheap thrills and I agree with ncik, they are going to collect a lot of dust in the garage after a season.

wont or cant?

If THAT'S the future of sailing, I've never been more content to live in the past!!

How much does this thing cost anyway?

OK, step outside of the box!!! For those of you hard core sailors/racers, stop reading! For the adventurists, look at it as a way to kayak around a small lake gunkholing, wetting a line or leisurely checking out spaces you wouldn't get to with a regular sailboat. Kayaking has its place! The sail will help when crossing larger bodies of water (relative here) with a little breeze. BUT, You've got to think about NOT RACING!!! Agreed that the statement of the future of sailing is way off base, but it could be useful to the right audience.

JMO,

Clayton

P.S. Of course I can stick it inside of my Stiletto! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

What a bunch of rubbish. The future of kayaking/adventuring maybe, but this has nothing to do with sailing. And if you think the H16 is also the future then I am sure that you are driving a Ford model T.

Well put Clayton. It's not a replacement and has it's own niche.

You guys are funny - and are playing the elitist role that conventional mono-hull sailors did in the late 1960's.

Go back 40 years and replace this with a Hobie 14. "The Future of Sailing!" Bah! Never! Who would ever buy one of those things! Plastic toys! Those aren't real sailboats! After one year, they'll collect dust in the garage!

Sound familiar? Think about it.

I'm not saying that the Adventure Island will ever sell like the Hobie 14/16 did/has. But the pricepoint and simplicity are there - just like the H14 in 1967.

The boats we sail today (even the Hobie 16) are:
1) Too expensive (when new)
2) Too complicated
3) Too big / heavy
For the average Joe SixPack who has no intention of ever racing or even sailing in the ocean.

You guys may look down your noses at these, but Hobie Cat's laughing all the way to the bank.

You're right. Its just that to many of us "sailing" means something that this thing doesn't represent.

I think there is a place for the rotomould boats but that isn't what he is talking about he is talking about that little kayak they built that can't do more than about 6 or 7 knots under sail.

Also he said something abouth the HObie 16, yeah it is a fun boat and i love to sail on it, but not the future!

There's a video posted by Greg Ketterman, on YouTube.

He's sailing under reefed main in high wind. If you look at time stamp 00:46, you'll see his wrist mounted gps showing 7.3. Knots or Miles per Hour? He says, in the video, that it "looks like it's blowing 25, maybe 30."

The sail is reefed.
Santa Rosa Island, Channel Islands National Park

Hobie Adventure Island videos on youtube.

GARY

I think this thing has enormous potential. Perhaps not this particular model. But. . . think ice boat.

I will now duck and cover.

Another interesting "sailing kayak."

GARY

You could buy 2 AI's for what that thing costs.

But it looks pretty cool.

I think a sailing kayak is a cool way to go exploring. It is also a good way to introduce more people to sailing. Perhaps they get the wrong impression from sailing these crafts, but so would they if they jumped into an Optimist. Getting more people on the water in crafts without engines is going the right way in my opinion. I would not mind a similar setup for going on trips with my better half. The Tornado has her scared, but this is something she can relate to.


Pete, ice boat?? What are you thinking about.

An ama that is more foil than float. Stuff like this guy designed. http://www.geocities.com/aerohydro/overviewframeset.htm

Does anyone think this might make a good gateway? Sort of a way to get people interested in sailing a multi-hull? I could see it working that way. It's probably fun to use, and hopefully people would want to try actual sailing, or at least sailing something more substantial in size.

Here's another question. Why is there so much Hobie bashing on this site?

They won't let the rest of us come to their parties.

Have you read the whole post??? The future. Please. Jake said it, buy a ad.

Or these guys : Now this IS the future of sailboat design...
http://www.sailrocket.com/boat.htm
and they are using the design principles of Bernard Smith who you mention, ideas from 1960`s !

The kayak ideas are a cool way to get folks who are into kayaking to become interested in sailing, so don`t knock it.

But 7knots boatspeed in 25knots ? No thanks, today I ran at 26knots in 15knots of wind. (Oh sorry, shouldn`t talk about windsurfing on a catsailor forum <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Then again, ask a kayak paddler how fast he can paddle into a 25knot headwind. Given the choice I`d rather sail at 7knots than paddle at 4knots backwards.

I agree I don't think that everyone is going to be running out for one of these. And "the future of sailing" is a little fruity sounding.

I don't know about "the future of sailing", but maybe where a lot of future sailors will get into sailing.

Ok, I gotta tell you, the Hobie Mirage Adventure Island is really fun and it is VERY versatile.



It is the MirageDrive that makes it all work. It is a kayak that can pedal or paddle, a trimaran sailboat that is fun to sail and pretty fast when compared to other boats it's size. The sail is roller furling and can be reefed as desired. The amas fold in against the hull for docking and beaching.

No, we did not design the first trimaran nor did we have the first folding amas, but we did design the Hobie MirageDrive and this has created a whole new class of products for Hobie Cat. We are very excited about combining the drive with other sailboat products as well. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is a natural. This is something EVERYONE can do. You can pedal out of a harbor, pedal through tacks and gybes, pedal for more performance or to get up on a plane (yes... they plane in good winds / 10+ MPH is possible), pedal upwind or pedal in no wind to get home. It is simple and efficient. Combine that to the roller furling sail rig and you have something that is safe and secure for people with little or no sailing skills.

Is this sailing? Of course... I have sailed and raced for over 30 years on all kinds of sailboats and boards. This is still excitiong to me. Will this bring in new blood to sailing? Absolutely! The Adventure Islands ARE teaching people about sailing and how to sail. Is it good for sailing? Certainly, any new sailors are good (to have) sailors. We are getting World Wide exposure and the product is EXPLODING with popularity. It is our number one seller now. We have one dealer in San Diego that sold 30 before they were even available last winter. That is Fast Lane Sailing (and Kayaking now) and one of the biggest Nacra / Prindle / Hobie dealers in the country. Ron, his family and his staff love these things. Is it just a flash-in-the-pan that people will get bored of? I don't think so. It is MUCH more versatile than any other "sailing" product I have ever heard of. You can do a lot on these.

You don't have to trust me on this, you can read the users feedback in our kayak forums and others. People love them!

http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/video/Adventure_Island.wmv

---------------------
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company

Pete, you're welcome to come to the parties. You can even bring your Blade. But there won't be an F-16 start at a Hobie One-design regatta, just like there wouldn't be one at a Laser One-design regatta.

>>> beat-to-death subject for a different thread

Hey look at this mirage drive video called "tug of war"

http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/images/miragedrive/tugofwarsm.wmv


Are those two old school peddlers given it their best or what ?

Ever seen how an Olympic tandem kayak team bolts out of the start gate, these guys appearently didn't.

Here is a video more like it :

http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/images/miragedrive/Tug-O-War_LG.wmv

Still an very nice concept though, that mirage drive. Human leg muscles are indeed much stronger then the upper torso and tire less quickly. Still not the same as sailing though.

Wouter

Looks like fun and a chick magnet to boot <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For some of us that "sail" this is fun!

you tube

I'll warn you that some of the people that were filming were having so much fun they used some four letter [sentence enhancers]. Also some kid linked this to his myspace and his comment was something like,

Some day this will be us.

However, he probably has not seen that PIC of the kayak yet.

....and OMG Wouter said something positive about a Hobie <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

The MirageDrive is not the sailing part... it makes it easier to get around. Kinda like having a ready outboard. For performance sailing, think of it as a super ooch'er! You just pedal to get moving if desired or don't pedal at all. Doesn't require it.

Nothing said here gives me confidence that products like this encourage more ppl into sailing.

It just takes one big gust or wave and some mayhem arising from it to discourage a potential new sailor on these things. We all know these incidents happen when sailing, but they are part of the challenge and having an experienced skipper at the helm to encourage the whole crew to deal with it is a good thing.

Do something for the sailing community, train a crew.

Back to topic...
It is a kayak with three propulsion options; sail, pedal, paddle...that's all. Kayaks with sails (and paddles) have been around for ages.

I like your thinking. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Been there, done that with grand daugther.

Doug

O rly?

Last Saturday, we had a "Fast and Fun" in Kirkland, on lake Washington. See http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm
We used our five Hobie Cat Waves from Sail Sand Point, and a dozen Hobie volunteers to take the people out on this Free outreach program. More than 100 new "sailors" were introduced to sailing. Our local Hobie Cat dealer, Dan Carpenter, Hobie Cats Northwest, again brought back the traveling Hobie Cat Kayak program for this event. All models of the Hobie Kayak, including the Adventure Island were available for use. Most people took advantage of the Wave rides and the kayaks. The Adventure Island was a big success, and at least one was sold from this event.

This Saturday, Hobie Cat 101 will be held at Sail Sand Point. See http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/ for more info.

Caleb Tarleton

Who is this guy? Is he on another planet?



You have GOT to be kidding...

That certainly applies to any catamaran or small monohull more than it would an Adventure Island.

Sheesh.

I suggest that people like this "guy" (really trying to be nice here) "do something... anything" positive for the sport themselves and spend a little less time being negative about other ACTUAL positive results being achieved. Especially with NO actual knowledge of the products being discussed.

This really does get old guys.

At the end of the day this is mostly a catamaran racing forum and catamaran racers are a small part of the sailing population, so we don't get the view of the general public here. Depends how you define "the future of sailing", but if it is sales volume then the comment has merit. If it means the future of racing cats then I agree it has no chance. These boats appear to be selling very well.

A guy at my office loves the idea so much he just bought one with the full sailing kit (this is someone who has a cat that he built himself). He is very pleased with it. Anything that gets people sailing is a good thing. This appears to be a very versatile alternative that will probably get more people out sailing than racing catamarans.

Gareth

Awesome, I love it! I thought you all would bite, but I didn't think you would bite that hard. Actually I was having a lot of fun with my post related to the “future of sailing” and boy did you guys take it line, hook, and sinker. Of course Wouter’s response was predictable as usual; however I was not expecting him to actually say something positive about Hobie.

Actually we just had a big demo day in our area with cats and the Islands, and many many of the people who tried the Island (including some expert cat sailors) absolutely loved the Island. We had about 15 knots of winds so it was great conditions for the Island. Our sailing club already has several members that will be racing with Islands. So when there is no wind on the race course the Islands can pull us cat sailors back to shore.

Is the future of sailing in the Island, maybe not fully but it is for sure part of the future of sailing. I can tell you our local dealer is selling a ton of these things and what’s amazing is many of these purchases are by very experienced sailors.

Also is the Hobie 16 the future of sailing, well for sure, it will continue to be a part of the future of sailing. We just had a guy locally that sails a Super Cat and races other exotic cats (including an A Cat) go for his first sail on a H16. He sailed the H16 in 20 knots of wind and told me he had the time of his life. I am still amazed after all these years the H16 is still going strong and will continue for many years to come for sure much to the benefit of the multihull sailing community. I know you all do not like to hear this but oh well get over it. And I still can’t understand why you all want to kill such a strong multihull class, when you keep talking about promoting the sport. Your hatred of Hobie really has blinded many of you on this forum.

Just relax, take a deep breath, and go sailing. You all just need to get over your hatred of Hobie and realize Hobie is good for the sailing community and for the future of sailing. What Performance Catamaran Co., and other sailboat manufactures are doing in general is of course also great for our sailing community. Really are we a community of multihull sailors or just a bunch of biased, negative sailors, stabbing each other in the back?

RRRREEEEELLLLLLAAAAXXXXX!!!!!!!!!

I don't think that anyone hates Hobie, I like them actually, I just don't think that the AI is the next big thing in sailing.

As for the 16, they are alot of fun and very fast, but compare them to some of the modern boats and they are old dinosaurs.

Maybe Hate is to strong of a word but I will say there are many on this forum that have a strong dislike for the Hobies.

I however believe that the AI will be an incredible boost for sailing in general and current Hobie numbers are showing very strong sales and responses by those that have purchased them (sailor and non-sailors alike) are very impressed with its performance and versatility.

Some sailors on this forum may think the H16 is a dinosaur but its more like a shark, even though sharks lived during the time of the dinosaur they are still very much a part of the current Oceans ecosystem and there is no sign that they are going extinct, as a matter of fact many recent species have come and gone. The H16 is here to stay when many other cat designs will come and go (many cat designs have come and gone sense the H16 came out). I hate to keep this whole topic going about the H16 but all Hobie manufactures year after year continue to see strong H16 sales numbers. In India they had there first H16 nationals and new fleets develop there. Greece also recently had H16 nationals with again new fleet development. The same has taken place in Asia. Finally South America will soon have its first H16 national regatta, with again new fleet development. There are some new developments related to the H16 in other countries. The H16 continues to see strong fleets participation in established markets, and in many areas renewed development. I know none of you follow the whole H16 movement but I do and its great to see this great class of multihull continue to sail strong after so many years. It’s really great for our multihull sailing community. I realize some of you just do not get it and that is fine, I wish you the best in what ever you sail. Really I have no dislike for any of the boats you sail – sail long and prosper!

The Hobie crowd got to expect some retorts when you poke fun of "those stuck in the old world of carbon fiber cats (heck the kevlar/carbon cats are not even the future of sailing).". If you dont want the obvious feedback, dont post stuff like that but phrase your opinions with a little less camel hair glued to them.
It seems like there is a "the world hates us" feeling among Hobie sailors on this forum. I dont see why this is, as it wasn't the Hobie sailors who changed the now infamous HCA edict about only Hobie boats on the line at Hobie events. I am pretty certain that most enlightened readers of this forum is able to distinguish between a Hobie sailor/owner and HCA/Hobie Co. and what the latter issue. This wallowing in your own misery is really getting old, especially from a company rep. who really should look forward and let the matter die of its own from old age.


AI will forever be Artificial Intelligence in my head, but OK.

I dont agree with Nick that the Adventure Island will be dementrial for sailing. You dont get into a kayak and expect to stay dry. At least I dont. Kayaks are also highly technical watercraft, especially when you begin to practice different bracing techniques, eskimo rolls, strokes etc. (how do you do a brace or a roll with the mirage drive? Both er essential safety techniques in a kayak). Of course some might get the totally wrong impression of sailing by either watching or trying an Adventure Island, but I am pretty certain there will be more positive experiences of sailing than negative. The perception of sailing as something mystical only the upper class do can be altered by a craft like the Adventure Island. Buzz by an Adventure Island or similar with your cat, and they will surely be interested.
As I said in my other post in this thread. Getting people who want to be on the water out there, in a non-motorized craft, is all good.

Pete, I think Hobie is doing the right thing in building this thing for the masses. There are plenty of extreme sailing crafts for us fanatics. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I admit that I would love to sail a AI for a while. I am sure I could find something fun to do with it. But I am about to start building a F16 class cat and for some reason the AI just looks like a toy to me.

I imagine that some people will love it and that it will help people get into sailing but I think if any boat is going to be the future of sailing it will be the Wave that hobie makes. Granted it catchs alot of [censored] on this forum but it can get people on the water cheap and still has decent performance.

As for Hobie sailors, I guess I am one technically, but I also sail other cats and have some hostile feeling towards Hobie because I feel like they are limiting themselves some.

AI Artificial Intelligence or Adventure Island

I understand your point on the whole poor me related to bashing Hobie as I do the whole poor me I am not include in Hobie events thing.

Time to move on....

How do you like this statement guys, the tail directly contradicts the earlier part.




So I was predictable when I did something that was not expected ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Try and beat that !


Wouter

Boy you really need to take a chill pill Wouter. Is there no humor on this forum?

I love contradictions <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I always wondered why some people think that when a negative thing is said about a particular craft that that somehow is the result of some unfounded hatred. Could it actually be that there are some good reasons unlaying a given critism ?


Wouter

First you write :




And then you advice me to take a pil ?

This is getting better by the minute.

Wouter

Again relax, breathe slowly......

I think the "Adventure Island" is a great way to get non-sailors out on the water, since they can also pedal or paddle it while they experiment with sailing. Great for rental places because you know the boat will be able to get back to the stable.

We have a friend with a kayak rental business at Put-in-Bay, and I'm going to suggest that she buy one of these, since there is no place on the island to rent any kind of sailboat right now.

I have several friends with kayaks. They never look like much fun but I would go 'kayaking' with them if you give me a sail. Hell, I think roller blading with a bedsheet sail would be awesome. I just love the speed! Whatever it takes as long as it doesn't require petrol! This is the future of Kayaking!!!

You have no idea how much fun I'm having here. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Even under Hobie 16 sailors it is rare to encounter such a person as yourself.

Wouter

How do you beach that without damaging the drive unit? I would think that may be detrimental to rental units as the customers will not be so careful when comming in unless you have them docked in deep enough water.

Just a thought,

Clayton

It's amazing how many people are ready to bash something new if it doesn't fit their miopic view of what sailing 'should' be. It's like they're threatened. And just because the LOUDEST posters are into kev and carbon doesn't mean that these types of boats are the 'best'--they just suit the person that owns them. I don't have people calling for F16's, Tigers or Aclass everyday, but I do have people calling for AI's everyday. They obviously fill a niche and people love them.

The elitist 'my boat is the only boat' attitude does more to discourage new sailors from joining our sport than you may be aware. If you want to encourage new sailors, a little niceness would go a long way. Show them it's 'FUN', not that 'that other boat is crap blah,blah...'.
It's still fun for you to sail, right? It's hard to tell with all of the negativity sometimes.

Now, to anyone that posted a negative comment reguarding the AI.
1)Who has sailed one? (If you did you couldn't not at least crack a smile because you were having a good time.)

2)Who has seen someone sailing one? (They would've had a huge smile, because they were having a good time.)

3)Who just saw pictures of one on the internet and loves to type? (That's what I thought.)

And if you think that this type of craft does not provide an entry level for someone to get into sailing, I want some of what your smokin' <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Who said "my boat is the only boat?" I think at lot of positive opinions were voiced along with some questions on the position of the product in the market and also if the product would have long term interest for buyers.

Could this kayak be an entry into sailing? Sure, why not. no arguements there. Is it the future of sailing? Probably not.

The only 'my boat is the only boat' attitude is coming from the Hobie only people. I think that people here are pretty inclusive, not exclusive and I guess there is still a backlash against the Boat X edict.

Yeah, the only people that are saying anything about "my boat only" are the Hobie people.

I prefer the higher performance boats and I don't think I will ever own an Adventure Island but I am sure it could help get new people in to sailing. But like I have said before it is not the future of sailing. In my mind saying that it is the future is saying that it is the newest and most exciting thing out there. To me and I think many others the F16 class would be that. It is filling many gaps and allows alot of people to get on the water are very fast boats.

The Hobie crowd, which I used to think I was in because I owned a Hobie seems to look down on the other sailors because they buy from one dealer. And they seem to think that this dealer is the only one people should buy from. But Hobie has become slightly stagnant, yeah they just came out with the AI but what new high performance cats have they come out with. Look at Hobie Europe, they are rolling out new models all the time and some of them are pretty hot looking boats.

I am not saying that Hobie makes bad boats, far from that, I actually love some of their products. But I think that crowd that thinks it is Hobie or nothing else needs to adjust their attitude.

I will go on record again in saying that I find this concept to be interesting and even attractive.

I was just making some fun of the testimonials and the claim that this is "the future" of sailing.

So this is one LOUD poster who is in favour of the AI and I don't feel threatened by it.

Wouter

(can you tell I have been bored sh!tless for the last couple of days ? I got heaps to do but can't do it because I'm watching over a bunch a students so that they don't electrocute themselfs. The newspaper only lasted for 30 minutes. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)

Wouter

I'd sail one.

The previous Hobie kayak dealer here on Maui had a pile of damaged Mirage drives caused by beaching them. He refused to sell any more kayaks equipped with them.

To answer a few questions raised about the Adventure Island and the MirageDrive.

Bracing and Eskimo roll as a safety requirement -

All of the Hobie Kayaks are sit-on-tops. You don't roll them while locked in the **** like a sit-inside. You simply hop back on if dumped out. The chances of rolling an Adventure Island are very slim. If you did, you can fold one ama in and then roll the boat back upright... and then hop back in the ****.

Beaching with the MirageDrive -

This is one of the greatest features of the MirageDrive. You simply push one pedal forward (either pedal) and the drive fins come up flush with the hull bottom.

Otherwise, for very rocky shores that might damage the drive in some way, you can easily pull the drive out of its well.

Dealer on Maui? Likely a rental place. Owners of MirageDrive boats don't have a lot of problems, but it is a problem with rental people as described in the last post. Kind of like having a fiberglass cat in rental. They take more maintenence. Hard to get the rental people to push one foot forward when beaching... simple concept.

We have been looking at ways to make a drive work (mount) on any boat to use in and out of harbors and when the wind dies. They weigh just 6.6 pounds. You could tuck one under a tramp and pull it out when needed. Just like a paddle, but way more effecient.

Now that I could go for, maybe something that would just hang off the back between the rudders! No more paddling or sculling.

Matt, I think it's a great product, and maybe we speed freaks could add a spinnaker kit <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I ride my bike around a lake to keep the beer gut in check, I have often wondered if I could somehow put my bike on a set of hulls, remove the rear wheel and hook the chain to some sort of propeller drive unit, then ride ON the lake instead of around it, where I'm always at risk of being hit by cars.

How do you steer it? How does this system compare to say riding a bike 20 miles? Same work out? Harder? Easier? Will I want to pedal this thing for an hour straight? I rented a paddle boat (pedal powered, two seats, side by side) last month and it sucked big time, too heavy, too slow and too hard to pedal fast. The pedal motion was not smooth, but more like thump-thump, thump-thump. Not something I wanted to do for more than 15 minutes.

Is the pedal motion smooth and how fast does it go with a -semi- fit person pedaling the eqivelent of 20 mph. on a road bike, not using the sail?

But I love the sail, can we make it bigger?! And at what wind strength will the amas start to go under?

Oh, and where can I test drive one near central Florida? Oh yeah, what's it cost, ball park?

Jeremy, I think the correct term for the people that have not seen or tried the Adventure Island, or for that matter support Hobie Cat products is "Green with Envy".

Caleb Tarleton

While I do think this thing is semi-silly, the more I read this post the more I want to get one. Hobie needs to make a kayak with a closed top so you can put a skirt on it and stay dry. Does this kayak work with out the sail and ama's all the same? For river/creek use?

Dry? We have a dodger you can install over the ****.

Smooth pedaling? Yes.

Steering? Small handle / tiller controls rudder. Another raises and lowers it. Handle in the lower side of this image is steering. Very confortable relaxed position for your hand to rest.



Resistance? The standard fins have good performance and little resistance. We have 3 sizes of fins now to increase performance and reduce cadence. Many people pedal these for hours.

Speeds pedaling? There are a bunch of guys that are totally into this. Here is one part of a post on the issue of different fins performance:



Slow cruise (40 cycles per minute):
Standard fins 3.0 MPH
ST fins 3.4 MPH
ST Turbo fins 4.5 MPH

Fast cruise (60 cycles per minute):
Standard fins 4.4 MPH
ST fins 5.0 MPH
ST Turbo fins 5.7 MPH

Sprint speed (average, using GPS):
Standard fins 6.5 MPH
ST fins 7.3 MPH
ST Turbo fins 7.5 MPH

Here is the thread: http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=6270&highlight=speed++turbo

Without the sail and amas? That is the standard Hobie Mirage Adventure, so yes. We just don't recommend shallow moving water conditions.

Karl, It's their adventure model when stripped of amas and sail. Sixteen foot seems like alot of kayak for other than ocean or lake work.

I suppose your aim is warm water and calm conditions then. I have been out in a kayak in rought conditions in cold water. Missed on the brace, did not know how to roll, wet exit. After three attempts at re-entry, I swam to shore while supporting myself on the inverted kayak. Not much fun at 63deg north in october. Nobody to do an assisted entry with, as this was before the kayak craze hit. I would not go out in anything but a dead calm in a kayak I could not do proper braces and rolls with. I have since perfected several rolls and become both older and wiser. My point is, that it is not as easy as it sounds to simply hop back on if it is choppy or even breaking waves with strong winds, and those are the conditions you capsize in.

The Mirage drive looks pretty good, you have really done something good with the propulsion system. The whole control and propulsion system looks functional and show "out of the box" thinking! Even if I myself am too traditional to let go of the paddle.
I know one of the resellers of the Adventure Island here in Norway, and he say that interest is high and he has sold serveral already.

You are talking about a sit-inside kayak. Yes those are rather dangerous when you roll and even worse when you come out of the hull with the skirt detached. The hulls flood and require very specialized techniques for re-entry. Sit-insides have their place, but have less appeal to the recreational market. They are especially good for experienced users in rough (river) moving water.

Our products are sit-on-top and are certainly capable of handling rough conditions. I surf my paddle sit-on-top... is this rough enough? I can brace well enough to stay in in these waves. I get dumped and climb in, no problem. They don't swamp like a sit-inside, so even if you don't get back in, they float.

Matt Kayak Surfing

Are they available at the Tackle Shack in Tampa or somewhere on the east coast of FL?

I've been pretty astonished watching these things go - they are efficient.

I believe that Economy Tackle in Sarasota carries Hobie Kayaks.

We have dealers all over the place...

Hobie Dealer Finder

We also distribute through Hobie Cat Australia

www.hobiecat.com.au

and Hobie Kayak Europe

www.hobie-kayaks.com

Tackle Shack is selling a ton of Hobie kayaks and sailboats... which we consider the Island to be both.

Amas being pressed under in high wind

GARY

It weighs 25# + bike 30# = 55#.
check www.shuttlebike.com
and
http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/67017-SetupDay2.jpg

Now I have to figure out how to put a sail on it.

Has a Tuna or a Marlin ever hit that Mirage Drive! You must customers gettin launched all over the surf by all manner of gamefish?

I was just thinking of versatility. 16 foot is real long for small river running. I've been using a 12 foot and that seems a might long for playing around. A kayak on a lake, other than the BWCA, sounds boring. Unless you add some sails and a ama's of course. Speaking of the BWCA, what does one of these weigh? Can't use the sail up there, but the pedal drive would probably go unoticed.

Man am I dumb, I really thinking about getting one of these.

Yes, my experience is with conventional kayaks. The water is too cold and the elements too harsh here for sit on tops during winter. In summer and during autumn it can be OK, but I still prefer to stay dry inside the **** with the skirt on. The inability to roll a sit on top kayak is still a serious flaw for any kayak in my opinion. You can argument that there is a risk for getting trapped inside a traditional kayak, but the risk is relatively small with proper training. Everybody should get proper instruction before going for a paddle anyway. I believe the recreational market, which IS the kayak market here, is 95% traditional kayaks. But we are quite traditional in this country, just look at multihull penetration..

It was a nice video. Not what I call rough, but a very nice surfspot. But you were using a pretty traditional paddle, not the Mirage drive which I wondered how you could brace with? Is the Mirage only installed in very wide and stable kayaks? For reference, some of the pictures from the Alter Cup is beginning to be rough in my opinion. Smallish waves tough. Have you tried reentry in conditions where the wind combined with chop or waves have thrown you over?

You are probably doing just the right thing with your kayak producs for building a healthy business. Question is how long the current kayak craze will last..

Matt,

I actually did some white water kayaking when I was younger and about 5 years ago I played for several days in the surf on a Hobie sit-on-top kayak (there was no wind). I found the difference to be rather big. Maybe your sit-on-top is a newer improved version but the one I had then wasn't to great in wave riding and I found it to be pretty unstable in the surf and hard to do recoveries on. I've used a plain polyethyleen (rotomolded) closed kayak a lot and that one was very easy to surf and control. Inuit rolls were a breeze in that kayak.

Personally I would love to have a kayak again for those storm days that we seem to have more often over here. I found it to be a nice addition to having a sailboat.

Wouter

Yeah, I surf for the exercise and fun.

Rolf, you can use "thigh control straps" on a sit-on-top to brace or possibly do a roll. I would rather just pop out than get my head banged on the bottom though. There are a lot of sit-on-tops designed just for surfing and "surf skis" that are more surf board than kayak. Mine is a Maui.. that seems to work really well in the surf. I go out with a bunch of guys on surf specific boats and I catch as many or more waves. The Maui is like surfing a long board as compared to surfing a short board. Easier to catch waves, but less maneuverable. For actual surfing, I don't prefer the MirageDrive, but they are to good get out and back in thorugh surf. For surfing you have to pull up the rudder and use a paddle to brace into the waves so you can slide. The Maui also has a harder chine that allows me to stay on the face of the wave.

Fish hits? Don't think we have had any big fish take a bite out of the MirageDrive fins. These are likely the hottest item in fishing these days. We have a whole separate market there. The Mirage allows you to hold a rod and fish while pedaling, grab a drink, shoot photos, bird watch... whatever. We say "hands free" because you certainly can't do all those things while paddling. We have guys going for big fish (Black Marlin) on them. Charter boats are carrying them to spots and dropping fishermen in to be on their own. The kayak fishing craze is amazing. We are seeing kayak fishing tournaments that draw hundreds of kayaks and the Hobie's are starting to take over due to the better function for fishing, wind and waves.

Rough conditions? Story after story is told about Hobie Mirage kayaks pulling paddle guys back upwind and out of trouble. Yeah, they work in rough and windy conditions.

Wider boats? We have all styles. Long and fast like the Adventure and short and wide for fishing (like the red boat in an earlier post). More stable and better **** layouts are possible with wider boats.

Oh yeah...

Gary, just like a cat when pushed too hard, the lee hull can bury. You either sheet out or under it goes. The beauty of the Island is you can infinitely reef quickly and easily. The mast rotates like our Bravo rig. Just furl a little if the hull is pushing down too much and you actually go faster. Guess that is like using the main traveler on the cats. Eases the load and the boat goes faster.

It weighs 25# + bike 30# = 55#.
check www.shuttlebike.com
and
http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/67017-SetupDay2.jpg

That looks like what I have been thinking about, except I never thought to make it inflatable. Any idea where I can find one in the US and what it costs? Looks like fun and not too much trouble to set it up.

web page

Pedal Boats (hydrofoils too!)

GARY

Wow, that is some great stuff Gary, thanks! I really liked that foiler, second to the last picture. OK, who's going to build me one?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A couple years ago it was $900. Bought direct from Italian manufacturer with Paypal.

And how well did it work?

A plastic pedal kayak with training wheels and a toy sail is the future of sailing? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I thought this was the future of sailing.

Um....no. That's a monstrosity of fugliness.

That looks more like the future of mega yacths when we run out of oil!

As for the original post, that looks like the future of kayaking, not sailing, but hey, if it brings more people into sailing, it's all good. Much rather see a bunch of those on my lake than more Jet Skis.

I'm going out to ride my bike around the lake again, I'll be daydreaming of one of those pedal hydrofoils! That would be nice.

Oh no, he's right, I googled it too, you get pictures of the clipper yacht <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

If that is the future... I am taking up golf!!

Toy? Isn't that what they were saying about cats a few years back? Actually some are still saying it.

Thought I'd stick in my .02, there was just a big study by the bike industry, and they were baffled by the fact that despite bikes getting better, there were less people getting into it. After a lot of focus groups, they realized an underlying problem; their product development people are enamoured with high tech, but the customers are intimidated by too many gears. So with this boat, maybe there is a whole world of people out there who might like sailing, but are intimidated by the thought of stepping a mast, or just plain don't enjoy going too fast! For me, I love being on the knife edge of control with the rudders screeching through the water, leaping from wave top to wave top, and enjoy the physical challenge of stepping my 6.0 mast single handedly. Is one better or worse? No, and I bet if you put 100 random people together and gave them a choise of setting up and launching a Tiger or the Adventure Island, a lot more would pick the A.I....

may I point out that there hasnt been any advancement in boat building in 25 years.
The so called "high tech" is 70s technology... The "modern" blade F16 with its tortured ply construction is 40s aero technology..
The basis for the hobie line-up is 50s technology.. The rotomolding is no diferent in essence to water tank drum industry of the 50s...

The only developmen has been in hull design and rig... Here again the A cat is simple..

*shrugs*

So what would a truly modern building technology be, and what would the advantages in a procession environment be?

nomex/carbon/epoxy was used on colour 7 at least 2 decades ago.. The only difference is the epoxy.. Back then it required an autoclave these days vac bagging and a warm box is all that is needed.. I believe kevlar was used in 18teens before carbon if not was around the same time..
what else? foam? not sure apart from minor improvements in composition has faom changed..

I cant think of any hull technology that isnt 70s.. This is evident in the total lack of decrease in weight with respect to boats since the drafting of the mosquitos and tiapans..
The only improvment is perhaps the use of these technologies, hull design, foils and rig... But even in rig we are behind the C class development work of the 80s when it comes to efficiency...

All the technologies you describe was developed in the space programs. For new technologies we need to look at what NASA and ESA are doing (I disregard India and China, as I believe they are playing catchup). Problem is that they have not developed significantly new technologies either, so the civilian market dont have anybody to pick up new tech from.

Now, do we need new technology for beachcat hulls? Isn't the current top technology producing 'light enough' boats? If we could build 18foot hulls weighting 5kgs each, would that be an advantage? I think there is a crossing point somewhere, but where?

18ft hulls weighing 10lbs or so? Wow... interesting to contemplate. can you imagine how much more inportant skipper/crew weight positioning would be? Everything would be mid boom/ front beam sheeting.

I think what we need is technology that will allow hulls, both light and heavy, to be built more inexpensively! And that does not necessarily require "modern" technology.

I'm waiting for someone to come out with a basketweave design for hulls. Or a design for carving hulls out of blocks of styrofoam (a la the Snark).

If money is no object, I'm sure the technology must be available to build a boat that is light as a feather but as strong as steel.

I'm content with the current level of technology.

I would not be willing to pay more at this time.

Rolf, you really gotta find a ride one one of the F16s! As proof of technology, take a Blade out "lazy" rigged (main only; no jib, no spin)in wind 15knots and up. You won't believe it! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My friend and I have been considering carving a hull and structure out of foam for a moth, except use something better than styrofoam (it tends to soak up water over time).

There is a dedicated boat builders 5 axis mill nearby that make large scale moulds all the time. It should do the job.

Another little anecdote from a conference I attended on yacht design. The speaker had worked on a kiwi americas cup design many years ago when aluminium hulls were normal but the rules allowed fibreglass hulls. The rules were worded so that you could only build a fibreglass hull if it weighed the same as an aluminium hull. The whole point of building in fibreglass at the time was to reduce the weight of the hull so instead of doing the weight estimate for a standard aluminium construction, they designed an aluminium boat that was to be milled out of a solid billet of aluminium! This way they could have the most efficient aluminium structure with no weight for welds and the calculations could be based on the un-welded aluminium strength (which is higher than welded aluminium). I believe it was physically possible to do it at the time, although the cost would've been incredible! But they didn't need to actually do it, just prove that it was lighter so that they could build a fibreglass boat to that weight.

What still seems to be lost on many in this forum is the biggest innovation that the Adventure Island presents... the Hobie MirageDrive.



This is our first purpose built sailing product that includes the MirageDrive. That, I believe, qualifies this as an innovative sailing product... yes, using many "old" technologies as well. You do not need breakthroughs in materials... to have a breakthrough product.

MirageDrive Flash Demo

Ad

So? Hobie pays for a full pager in the hard copy of Catsailor. Matt didn't start this thread.

ST[sentence enhancer]U

Another thing that seems to be forgotten by the techies is the cost/benefit ratio.

A Hobie 16 cost $1,200 in 1973. That's "only" $5,586 today, whereas a new H-16 in 2007 is $8,700.

One of the reasons the initial Hobies were so popular is that they were affordable.

The Adventure Island is only $3000 in 2007. That would have only been $644 in 1973. The affordability factor is huge.

An America'c Cup boat? Thats a whopper of a chunk of aluminum. How would be my question.

I bought a new main for my mono from Neil Pryde (Florida).

The sail was designed in New England.

The design/parameters were emailed to China.

The sail was was cut and sewn in China.

Shipped to Florida (from China)

Then shipped to Georgia.

And 20% less than than the rest.

Gee there are some really biased post on this thread, ANYTHING that is relatively safe, gets people off their fat rear ends away from TV, computers, and “video” games, and out onto the water has to be good for all types of water activities, - even sailing -, so although this is obviously not “the future of sailing”, it is still all good.
It just surprises me a little at how this thread turned into an active blatant free plug for Hobie? (Not that there is anything wrong with that, as Sienfeld would say). I must say that sailing cats is my first preference by a country mile, but I still appreciate and encourage ALL other forms of water sports, and although I do feel that there has never been anything detrimental to sailing from Hobie (quite the reverse) a few of the people sailing Hobie cats over the years should have taken a more tolerant view of the other many sailers and sailing craft than they have, particularly when the 14’ and 16’ were at their peak of popularity. Positive action and deeds can only serve the “greater good” better than derision heaped on the non-Hobies by the few over the years. (A compliment brings a smile; a derogatory word is never forgotten)
I love the concept of the drive system Matt and would love to know who it was who actually came up with the Hobie adaptation of this principal for use in the Hobie Kayaks? The principal has been known for many years but to my knowledge has never been adapted before for any commercial use (with the possible exception of Gondolas and their like).

Yes the drive is fantastic, but it has nothing to do with sailing.

Seems like all the wizzy technology is being done out in the Mojave desert at Scaled Composites.

http://www.scaled.com/index.html

Technology is already there <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Inexpencive, too

So it’s obviously that the Adventure Island (or the Island as I call it) is not the future of sailing? How in the heck do you know, how in the heck does any of us know? Now I don't know either but I believe Cats are not the future of sailing. I believe Cats will continue to have a respectable future, but products like the Island that are simple to set up, sail great, and when there is no wind you can actually move and have fun with is what people are finding so amazing about this product. Also the average person/sailor wants a boat they can set up in just a few minutes, get on the water, and have fun with. Rick White is having great success with the Waves, another boat that is simple to sail and have fun on, and race. And again the H16 continues to be very successful. If you try to drop your biases a little and just look at the meat of the substance of what people or the average sailor wants you would quickly understand why Hobie now has 4 roto-molded sailboats and continues to be successful with the H16. You all are getting stuck on the same old track again about new technology/material for hulls, etc. Most people/sailors do NOT give a rats’ ___ about whether a boat is built of carbon, Kevlar, fiberglass, plastic, or crap for that matter, just as long is its simple to sail and set up, plus are able to have great fun on, then you have a winner. Of course it has to be a great product like the Island. You really need to try an Island to appreciate it and when there is no wind you will appreciate it even more.

Pete, I do intend to get my own F-16 this year. A homebuild Blade with a shortened Tornado mast on top. Looking forward to that!




16nut, are you actually foaming around your mouth? Havent we already covered this several times in this thread? Would love pictures of you flying a hull on your defecated boat. Probably cheap to build as you can supply the materials yourself, but it would surely be a stinker. (sorry, I am begin childish. Couldn't resist.. I'll go away now)


Vladimir, the russians are really taking that technology further. Do you know how long these boats lasts?

Vlad, very nice looking boat, but no trapeeze? What does it weigh and how high can you fly a hull before the rudder is out of the water?

A very intriguing concept! And attractive as well!

A little more information please. How long does it take to inflate? Are they exported? Can you compare performance to any other catamarans?

I agree!

GARY

When I saw the new Hobie I couldn't help but wonder if they had seen the Jim Brown designed Windrider 16, thought it was a good idea, and copied the concept. (See attached photo.)

Google "Windrider 16"
or see the manufacturer's site at www.Windrider.com
or go here: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1388105/0

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, looks pretty close.

I saw a windrider 17 a few days ago, that thing is kinda cool but slow compared to my 5.2.

Except for the MirageDrive which is the thing that sets this apart from everything before and makes it really work... and the folding amas... and it is a kayak by itself... and it is less expensive...

Rotomolded Polyethylene: The Poor Man's Carbon Fiber.

In addition to our small sailboats my wife and I have a kayak apiece. We live in Louisiana which begs for some kayak paddling once in a while.

I wouldn't say it's the future of sailing but small rotomolded boats that don't seem intimidating or complicated can introduce a lot of new people to the water without resorting to jetskis and that's great.

I think it would be fair to say that the Hobie Adventure Island is more of an advance for the kayaker. There are other kayaks that can be fitted with small sails (but without the amas that add stability a kayak with a sail needs). And the Islands sail is larger than the typical kayak sail.

The Island is also a pedal boat which may appeal to people not comfortable depending on the wind alone for propulsion. Some customers may enjoy a pedal boat instead of a sailboat.

We're really talking about two different products here. The Island is a convertible kayak with a sail, and hulls that make it a trimaran, and the Windrider 16 is a small trimaran sailboat, only. (The Island has 52.5 sq.ft of sail compared to 82 sq.ft. for the Windrider 16.) Some interesting irony is that the Windrider 16 was designed by a famous kayak designer; Jim Brown.

Fortunately, like all sailboats, the Windrider 16 can be picked-up slightly used by owners for whom sailing was not a big thrill. The cost of a used Windrider 16 all over the 'net is about $1,000 to $1,200. At that price you can have his and her's and plenty left over for a couple of kayaks to boot. To me, the Windrider 16 is a prettier craft and all of us (admit it) will pay extra for a prettier boat.

The Windrider 17 expanded the idea of the 16 but, no, when comparing that to a Nacra 5.2 is ludicrous. Those two are two different boats, as well.

Yes MATT, but who was responsible for design of the "pedal drive?

Was that ever really a question?... sorry if that wasn't already clearly stated by me. Hobie Company USA is responsible. Specifically: Greg Ketterman Hobie's VP of engineering's concept. Patented World Wide by us.

Are there plans for a larger hull?

The Adventure Island might not be in your 'future of sailing', but from what I've seen in the past few months I can tell you it's going to be in a TON of other peoples 'future of sailing'. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I am not sure why this thread has persisted so long. Yes, it is a multihull but it is nothing like one of the cats that we discuss around here for the most part- it is in a different class. It is kinda like pointing to a sunfish and saying it is the future of sailing. It is the future of PART of sailing.. like this AI thing- it is the future of sailing for people who like that sort of thing. It fulfills a need in the marketplace for a plastic low maintenance kayak/tri/sail/paddle boat. If it keeps catamaran dealers in business when selling our "type" of sailboats is slow then great <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
whatever

This thread is persisting because many people are excited about this new SAILING product. We have a group of us with AI's doing a long distance sailing trip this weekend with AI's and many in this group are very active sailing of multihull and monohull classes. I don't know about other areas that people live in but in our area the AI is a great hit and is bring diverse sailing groups together, which is great for sailing in general and also for Hobie. Honestly I have not seen this much excitement except back when the H16 first came out. The AI is great fun and sails great. When it comes to paddling regular kayaks jsut can't keep up particularly when you are pedaling or sailing. There is just nothing on the market that is so much fun, simple, great to sail.

There is no OFF position on the sales hype button.

Thanks PTP for summing up why I personally 'hit back' so hard on the forum when people talk negativly about a product that I represent.

PTP:
"If it keeps catamaran dealers in business when selling our "type" of sailboats is slow then great..."

YES! You nailed it!

I don't know of one catamaran only dealership (Brick and Mortar, not garage guys) in the United States. Most likely, they sell the small Vanguards and Hunters, Hobie Kayaks, etc. That's how we stay in business to provide the support needed for catamaran sailing. It's all necessary. I can tell you most definitely that your local cat dealer is not making a million bucks off of your cat habit. He's probably doing it for the love of high performance sailing.

With all of the competition from the big box marine stores, it's amazing that there are any small boat shops left in the U.S. at all. That's why its great to support your local cat dealer if you can, rather than some big box or mail order place. Establish a relationship with him and tell him what you want him to stock. He'd probably appreciate the help with inventory. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In our area the Hobie dealership sells kayaks and the like to stay in business to support more.... Kayak sales. The dealer is located literally right around the corner from the only place on the Bay where catamaran sailing/racing is actually on the increase. At the last Annapolis Sailboat show they proudly displayed the kayaks and the trimaran rig, along with an Escape tucked in the back. When I asked if they would have interest in what was going on in their own backyard, I was told by the area rep that "the days of 100 boat regattas are over" and their money was in kayaks. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.

We've grown an A-Cat Fleet and a NACRA-20 Fleet in addition to the open class racing going on. A little interest from a dealer might have made the next one to build a Tiger Fleet. Instead, F-16s are popping up, 3 new Blades in addition to the two Taipans we already had.

If you're waiting for the 100 boat fleet to materialize before you feel like getting involved, you're part of the problem, not the solution.

As for supporting the local stores, this outfit alone drove me to the mail-order houses when I was still sailing Hobies. I'm of the opinion now that my business goes to the most helpful and reliable, and these days that's mostly mail-order for our area. Big box stores in our area have very little overlap, except for kayaks, rope, and some blocks. I'm starting to feel like a certain cat company is becoming irrelevant.

That may be a little raw, sorry.

That sucks Kieth. I can't defend or speak about any other dealership but my own. You may want to just communicate with him as to what your needs as sailors are. It would be more convienient to walk into his shop to pick up a part rather than wait on shipping. Who knows, he might really lag...then it's mail order for you!

On the other hand, I can tell you that Surf City is the other way around, we sell kayaks and plastic boats to be able to sell H.P. cats. As far as the relevence of a certain cat company, each area of the country has a dominant fleet. As I said before diversity is nice. Are we done with this thread yet?
Don't apologize for being 'raw', sometimes it needs to be said.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, the parts shop for cats used to be in the dealership based in Annapolis. I tried buying stuff to stock up for my Hobies at the time. Most stuff out of stock and had to be ordered. Then they closed up the cat parts and moved the stock to Alexandria, still didn't stock much, stuff was all on back-order, and to get it I'd either have to drive or get them to mail it to me (mail order from the local dealer). Went down to SC for a wedding, found the Sail and Ski Connection, and found out how good things could be. Everything was in stock, and since I was mail ordering anyway I decided to go with the people that actually acted like they wanted my business.

But now I sail NACRAs, so I have no reason to bother with that local dealership except for trying to build the Fleets and bring more boats out. The location of the dealership near our two clubs seems to have no interest, but in the end it's their loss.

Glad to hear your dealership is better, I know the good guys are out there. I'll mail order from just such places (except in those times when the factory refuses to drop ship because it's not the local dealer - seen that one too).

The kayak tri is a good idea, although hardly the future of sialing. If you feel like homebuilding check out Chesapeake Light Craft

Not Vladimir, but try to reply.
With good care and maintanance 10+ years easily. Inflatables can be replaced, manufacturing new inflatable hulls is rather widespread service in Russia and Ukraine.

Weights between 45 kg (100 pounds) - smallest and lightest and up to 200+ kg (450+) for large seagoing boats. Boat on Vladimir's photos in appx. 90 kg (200 pounds) AFAIR.
Why not to fly hull? May be not too high <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Also with trapeze:

But this boats are relatively underpowered compared with "rigid-hull". Usual racing classes are 7,5 - 8 - 10 -13 m2, so not often need to trapeze.

Inflating is not the most time consuming procedure, 10-15 minutes with good pump, with electric pump less. Assembling the frame takes the most of time. Average assembling time is from 40 minutes to 1 day <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Depending on boat and crew.

AFAIK, ukranian company Ducky have sertifed their boats for EC market.
Boat on Vladimir photo is custom made. There are dozens different inflatable multihuls in ex-USSR countries.
Russia

Ukraine


Difficult to say, not too much experince. Not F18 or Tornado in any case, but more suitable for long travels, can be transported by car, train and airplane, wide range of boats for every use from 13 to 18-20 feets, even 30 feets for some customs.