Rules question:

Sailing to an upwind finish line two boats on starboard tack have overstood the finish line and are now sailing slightly low of -high and tight- to lay the line, windward boat is overlapped on leeward boat.

Does the leeward boat have to allow the windward boat in at the finish line or can he sail higher and take him above the layline to the finish line?

Is it considered like rounding a mark, where the "outside" boat (leeward boat in this case) has to give room for the inside boat?

My understanding (with no research yet) is at the finish line, the leeward boat does -not- have to allow an overstood windward boat "room" to finish, and can take him up above the finish line. True or no?

Oh, I gave him room, because he's a nice guy and his crew is cute and I drink beer with him too... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But for future reference, what is the correct answer? Thanks.

I think you have to give him room, unless you go above the mark with him.

Pete is correct.

Anything outside the ends of the finish line is to be considered as an obstruction and you cannot prevent an overlapped boat on the same tack from finishing.
If you do, he can protest and will probably win.
You did the right thing. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Stephen

Open water outside the finish line is considered an obstruction? I thought it was like at the start, where a boat barging in has no rights to room.

Guess I'll go get my rules book and look it up.

How much Overlap ???

Lets use the example that the leeward boat is "bow ahead"

First, the leeward boat is allowed to "luff up" the windward boat .... BUT must do it in such a manor as to allow the windward boat the opportunity to keep clear.

Secondly, the commitee boat is a "OBSTRUCTION" and you can not luff the windward boat into the commitee boat, the windward boat must be able to manuver clear of the commitee boat (just like a start and a "Barging" competitor)

Therefore, the leeward boat must luff up the windward boat before the commitee boat and then bear off ... and (most importantly) the overlapp must be broken at this point.

If there is still an overlapp at the point at which the windward boat can not manuver clear of the commitee boat you MUST allow them room to clear the commitee boat

I would have gently luffed up maybe 50yds out ... and then footed off just before stalling ...

This is a "I want to win", legal manuver

Note: If my friend is a "newbie" sailor, I would let them be .... if they are a "experienced champion" ...COMING UP, COMING UP!!!!!

Of course if the crew is that cute and your friend is buying the beverages ......

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe .....
Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458,Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC

Dude, read the book. 18.1.a is pretty clear about the only time you can peal someone off.

can't luff someone- ie force them head to wind at any time during the race.... only prior to the start. you can't do it AFTER the start. "luffing" doesn't apply to the case timbo is talking about.
I need to look it up too, but I think you can force the windward boat to the corner of the line and force them to slow and duck you. The mark is considered as surrounded by navigable water so it is not an obstruction. I would have done what timbo did- let him in (because I am not into pissing people off like some others).

I'm digging through it now, looking for "finishing" instead of starting, because I think there is a difference. And the committee boat was on the left end of the finish line, we were passing the ball on the right end of the line, so there was no boat as an obstruction, just a ball. We had both overstood and he moreso than I, so I had had to come down even further to allow him room at the ball, or did I? Could I have held my higher line to the finish ball and kept him above it? That is the question. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't necessarily call this clear regarding a finish line given the oddities of some of the rules:In rule 18, room is room for an inside boat to round or pass between an
outside boat and a mark or obstruction, including room to tack or gybe
when either is a normal part of the manoeuvre.
18.1 When This Rule Applies
Rule 18 applies when boats are about to round or pass a mark they are
required to leave on the same side, or an obstruction on the same side,
until they have passed it. However, it does not apply
(a) at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor
line from the time the boats are approaching them to start until
they have passed them,

So I would interpret this as you CAN force them above the line... you are also not sailing above your proper course if you do it because you are still sailing on a path to get you to the line in the least distance possible (heading any higher than the finish would be sailing above your "proper course"

Personally, I'd sail for the line (my proper course) and the guy above me will either have to get in ahead of me or slow down and duck in behind me. I'm not about to make it easy for him. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, that was what I had originally thought, but I have been digging in the book, and can find nothing regarding finishing, so I will have to assume the finish line ball is considered a "mark" that has to be passed on the same side and using that logic and rule 18 a leeward boat must bear off and allow an overlapped windward boat into the finish line.

Yes you can take the above the line but you can't peal. Isn't that the question here? Can I peal someone off at the finish? The answer is clearly NO!

YES! That is correct.

Dave, I cannot find the words "peel someone off" in the rule book, could you please elaborate. To me that means force them head to wind like a good hard luff just before the start. I'm talking about having to bear off my "proper course" to allow him room to finish.

Yes, you "COULD have done that, and you would have lost the protest if he had chosen to file.

I won that very protest.(one of only two protest hearings I have been required to attend as a skipper in the past 8 years)

It happened at a NAC event.

The Jury Foreman was an internationally qualified judge that was sitting on a jury boat at the finish line and watched the situation develop and play out.

Stephen

Peal = Not giving room at a mark. In a sentence: "Who from GYC is going to be at the WildCat to help me peal Ding off at the start?"

I can see you're still not convinced, and all I can say is peal someone off at the finish and let us know how it works out for you.

Here is the exact quote you are referring to I believe, no "peal" word in there, as I'm not sure of the meaning, I am sure of the intent however so I'll give you a pass there. Kind of hard to stuff someone into the committee boat when it's not there though, which was my original question in this thread.

From another thread, "Come on you GYC guys, are you coming over to Eustis this weekend or no? Todd? Seth? Steph? Matt and I could really use some help smacking down those F18's, with their "We are sooo superior" attitudes! You know we will all be on the same starting line so you can stuff them into the committee boat if you want! Don't make me do it alone."

To be fair, there is no "stuff" referrence in the rule book either! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Does the other boat have to ask for room? I may have screwed myself out of a couple of positions not asking for room once. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (inside joke, sorta)

Well, he did ask for room and I did give it to him, then on the drive home I started wondering if I had to or not. Good discussion and something to think about for the future anyway.

LOL, Okay Wouter you got me.

Well...I didn't want to -go there- but I know how you love it so... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> And I wish you guys had come out to play on Sunday but thank you for taking one for the team. Too good of you, really. But thanks. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

There will be other opportunities, Clearwater comes to mind. You think you can get GYC F16's to drive the 20 minutes down the road for this one? I think the mast up storage at GYC is making them lazy.

no one seems willing to summarize in an understandable (at least to me) manner....
so.. to summarize
the marks that denote (pin or bt)the starting line cease to be a part of the start line after the start and are therefore treated like any other marks.
agree?

huh <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Yeah pretty much, the line becomes an obstruction.

When is the Clearwater race? I think you are right, if they already have a local series where their boats are already set up, why would they leave? I think we should all move to St. Pete and sail there every weekend! But that's not going to happen, so...

And I doubt they will do anything just for me, they might need a boot in the Nutz to get motivated.
You are a much better -nutz booter- than I, so have at it! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I registered yesterday, thankyou very much!

Registrastion link please?

http://www.regattaprocessing.com/CCSC/Carlisle08/index.php

If you've never been there, it's as nice a facility as we have in Florida. The dinner is catered by some fancy-pants restaurants and is really, really good!

It's also an important charity event for the local kids. If I remember correctly one of the beneficiaries is a program called "Access Dingies" or some such. A very worthwile program by any name.

You guys got me to reading my OFFICIAL 2005-2008 US Sailing Rules of Sailboat Racing ....

So lets back-up this scenerio a little bit and look at:

Sec A/Rule 11: Same Tack/Overlapped- When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boatshall KEEP CLEAR of the LEEWARD boat.

vs

SecB/Rule17.1: Same Tack, Proper course- If a boat from clear astern becomes overlapped with-in two boatlengths to LEEWARD of a boat on the same tack she shall not sail above her Proper Course while they remain OVERLAPPED ....

So it is important how the overlap was established intitially .... your scenerio leads me to believe that the overlap was established by the windward boat ... correct???

Therefore:

1)The leeward boat is allowed to "Pinch-up/luff" slowly giving the windward boat opportunity to keep clear and the windward boat is reguired to keep clear ...

2)You must do this far enough before the finish line so as the rules for Marks/Obstruction DO NOT come into effect.

3) if the OVERLAP was intitially established by the leeward boat, the leeward boat is obligated to sail their PROPER COURSE to the next mark (unless the overlap was broken at some point by getting CLEAR AHEAD of the windward boat) ie: the leeward boat can not "scrap/peal" the windward boat off by using the mark and pinching-up since it can be demonstrated that the windward boat was sailing her PROPER COURSE to the next mark.

This is my interpitation of the rules for this scenerio ... I am VERY interested if I have analyzed this situation correctly

The real point here is that you may have waited to long to do what you needed to do ....

Sailing is like CHESS ... you need to be thinking several moves ahead ....

Personally, I try to "keep clear" at all Marks/Obstructions because the "Rights" change under the rules so quickly ... I usually hail other boats early and state what I believe the applicable rules/rights are ... Ex: Just before the two boat length circle: You have established NO inside overlap ...I will not leave room !!!!! (You have no rights, so don't be sticking your bow in there)

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC

You have it correct, after we both tacked to the finish line, he was behind but because he was more over stood than I, he could come down, faster, and established an overlap well outside of the 2 boatlength circle, more like about 50 yards out.

I guess I could have started pinching him up as soon as I saw him coming down fast, well before the finish line, and maybe held him off, but since he was on a larger, faster boat, I figured I was going to get rolled one way or the other. As it was he beat me across the line by one second but owed me much more than that, so I was not worried about losing to him.

But if we had been on the same type boat, I might have been able to pinch him up and out earlier as we would have been going the same speed, not him so much faster.

Tim you cant pinch him and make him sail a higher course you must give him room.

Yes you can, and should, until you are within the two boatlength circle and he calls for room, because you might soon get a headder and not be overstood anymore, so you should "put some in the bank".

We were about 200 yards away when we both tacked to starboard to get to the finish line, the wind shifted right and bingo, we were both overstood. If you are leeward boat you can (and should) sail as high as you want going upwind, until he has an overlap and needs room at the mark.

I didn't bother to do that as I was more interested in getting to the finish line ASAP to save my time on the rest of the fleet, since we were racing corrected time, so rather than F with him, I just went for the line, he came in from above going faster, established an overlap and called for room, which I gave. Had it been -you- however... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(I'm teasing, I would have given you room too, but not Ding, never give room to Ding!)

No Room for YOU, NEXT! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No you cant because then you wont be sailing the proper course to the finish line.

Robi, please define "Proper course".

We were always told when team racing that you can take another boat to windward of the finish line as long as you also go to windward of the finish; we were also always told to start planning and executing this EARLY to make it clear to the other boat what you were doing, in case they do not know the rules (not probable in team racing, but you never know...) and so the ctb cannot get in the way, as you cannot force them into the CTB, and so you would then have to give them water to avoid the CTB, and then there may not be room for both of you to go between the CTB and an inner spacer mark, and thus you would have to let them in to cross the finish line.



As far as I know, same rules apply when fleet racing.

Edit to add; if you tack under someone, you need to get clear ahead to start luffing above close hauled.

Proper course-

You sail to the pin or c-boat (whichever will be the mark on starboard side) and plan to almost scrape paint.

To me proper course means - the shortest course between the marks. You cannot carry another competitor way off course. That is not good sportsmanship. Just like room at the marks, you are entitled to do a tactical rounding, as long as its done in a seamanship manner. You are not allowed to go way off course.

You over stood the line, you are sailing a lower course, anything higher than required and you are no longer maintaining a proper course.
Its even worst if you are pushing a windward boat above the mark where he will miss it in order to avoid a collision with your boat.

Tim is this a good representation of your encounter?

The lines connecting the marks are the laylines.
The circle around the N20 is his two boat length zone.

Proper Course-course which would be sailed in the absence of other boats to finish fastest. So not always the shortest distance, esp. downwind where a proper course for one boat might be wider,faster angles, not the shorter distance but slower speed of running.

Robi,

You really need to read the rule book some more.


Proper Course is a defined term in the rules.:
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.
(italicized words are defined terms in the rules)


Yes you can, and it's done quite often in high level events. The last race of the F-18 Worlds last year, Bundy match raced Mitch Booth right off the course to assure his win.


I would tend to agree with you there, especially for local stuff - but when you get to the real pointy end of the fleet, it is an acceptable end-game strategy.

Whenever you look at a rules situation, it's best to break it down into its individual components and think of rules switching on or off.

The first part of this scenario is straight forward windward / leeward - Rule 11:
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

Rule 17.1 does not apply, since the windward boat established an overlap from astern.

The leeward boat can do whatever she pleases, including going head to wind, as long as she complies with Rule 16.1 (gives the other boat room to keep clear).

As they approach the finish line, the end of the finish line is a mark and Rule 18 switches on "when boats are about to round or pass a mark they are required to leave on the same side, until they have passed it."

Rule 18.2(a) requires the leeward boat to give room to the windward boat starting at the two-boat length zone, but only just enough room to pass the mark.

Notice that there is no mention of proper course in either of these rules. Proper Course is only used in Rules 17.1, 17.2, 18.1(b) and 18.4 - none of which apply here.


This is really a fairly simple rules question - you guys have made it much more complicated than it really is.

Robi, that's a pretty fair representation of the beginning of the situation, but we were further out from the finish line. As we got closer, he caught up and had an overlap as we approached the finish line.

So, now I am confused because we have heard you can take another boat above the finish line as long as you go yourself (only a good idea if team racing) and also you must give "room to round" to the inside boat. So, which is it?

And as far as proper course, in shifty lake winds, is there such a thing? Several times I was coming into A mark on what I was sure was the layline, only to get headded and have to tack twice to get there.

So on other occasions when I would get a lift coming into A, I would ride it high of the layline, expecting another headder before I got there. Same applies with the finish line. If we had got a signifcant headder before the finish, he might have laid the line, I would have had to tack to get up to it, so any time you are sailing below close hauled going upwind, you are risking that...so what is proper course?

If he caught up within two boat lengths out to your side, you had full luffing rights, and could take him head to wind, if outside two lengths you would be limited to proper course, but I think it's based on the current wind, not a future wind. But I'm not sure, if you really think that you will finish faster sailing higher the the mark planning on a header, and would do it anyhow if the other boat wasn't there, he might just have to suck it up as windward boat and take your stern, as long as your not right at the mark and trying to go around by yourself.

Robi & Timbo,

Please read Matt Bounds' explaination .... he and I have agreed on the rules that pertain to this scenerio ....

1) it's "VERY" important on "HOW" the overlap was established.

2) let's devide/split the scenerio in two parts: sailing to windward and then, Upon reaching the two boatlength circle at the Mark/Pin still overlapped.

Sailing to windward with the "windward boat" establishing a overlap on a leeward boat: the leeward boat is allowed to luff or pinch-up at the leewards pleasure as long as they give the windward boat time and opportunite to "keep clear" (secA/rule 11)

If upon reaching the two boat length circle at the mark and the windward boat still has a overlap (effectively an inside overlap) the leeward boat must give/leave enough room for the windward boat to clear the mark.

This is what you did Timbo which was correct as you did not luff-up the overlapped windward boat prior to reaching the two boat length circle.

Now for educational purposes let's look at the scenerio if the "Leeward boat" had established the overlapp from clear astern instead. The leeward boat can not sail avove her "proper course" while overlapped to the windward boat unless the leeward boat breaks the overlap by being "clear ahead".

So this means that the leeward boat can sail a course "laying the pin" BUT no higher. So the two overlapped boats sail side by side up to the pin, upon reaching the two boat length circle the windward boat has an inside overlap and calls for room, which the leeward boat is obligated to give ... now if the leeward boat can "punch through" and get "Clear Ahead" they are then free to sail any course they wish including sailing above a "proper course"

Now the (once) leeward boat will have turned the tables and will be able to ask for room if the (once) windward boat is able to re-establish an overlap but now she is the leeward boat and will need to allow room at the mark

So, it's all goes back to how the overlap was established ... that determines which rules apply.

And this is why earlier I stated that you MUST/SHOULD defend BEFORE reaching the two boat circle around the mark as the rights flip-flop at that point.

Robi, if I may have a little fun at your expense ... while "Hobies" are not the fastest beach cats out there, there are alot of very talented and exceptionally good sailors racing in the Hobie Points Regattas (and I'm not one of them but Matt Bounds is ... also thats where Robbie Daniels got started racing Beach Cats)... so,if you compete against them, they will make you learn the rules ... or you will be spending alot of time doing "360" circles

Timbo, thanks for asking the question and making me revue the rules ... I still remember "mast abeam", HAhahaha

Sail Fast, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC

I stand corrected and thanks for the explanation folks.

Robi,

When I ever get to Florida for a race would you be so kind to come by my "campfire" and have a "beverage" from my cooler ... I would be honored

Harry

This is almost 100% right, but this also may be a difference in terms used....

In the UK, the Pin end is the Far end on the line (so away from the CTB);

The leeward boat can sail any course up to laying the CTB end of the line; given the "slight overstand" situation, this might be slightly below closehauled. Essentially, they need to make it clear that they are not sailing above the layline. Remember; they ARE alowed to take into account TIDE and so they may be actually be sailing above the direct angle to the CTB to ensure the course they make is to the line.

The leeward boat can CHOOSE which bit of the line they want to cross, but cannot go above the course (including tide) to cross the line at the CTB and leave enough room For the boat(s) to windward to cross.

Thanks for all the great explanations.

To explain why/where the Committee boat was on the finish line; we would have the boat on the right end, even in America, but because we had 4 separate fleets starting/finishing, and a shortage of committee boat volunteers, what we normally do is anchor the boat once and leave it there, put the start line ball off to the left (looking upwind) and the finish line ball off to the right of the anchored boat. That way, you can be running a start sequence on the left side of the boat for one fleet while another fleet is finishing on the right side of the boat.

This is also why they keep the start-finish lines closed, which makes for quite a large -no sail- area in the middle of the course, where the best wind is... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Which is why the best place for the start / finish line is below the gate . . . completely off the race course . . . but that's a whole different thread.

Bingo... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Slight change if I may.

How do you handle someone who is barging? I will bet the must often given "advice" is that you can drive them into the committee boat.

I doubt if that is legal. Further, I doubt a committee would uphold it.

So what to do? Both legally and as a practical matter.

I think that would merrit another thread. Good question.

You start. I'm particularly interested in how you feel that should be handled. Personally, I think boarding hooks and cutalsses are in order, but that's pro'ly not in the rules.

My take on it, dont drive them into the RC boat, leave them a way out. If they have passed the point of no return, give them room (call "No room" first, well ahead) and protest them. Prudent RCs dont use the boat but a mark to define the line, so the bargers have a way to espace if they need it. This is just a game, so even if somebody plays the game poorly or even stupidly, there is no need to cause injuries on sailors or equipment.

What if there is no way to give them room? What if you are being taken up in a long line of leeward boats who are all taking each other up? You cannot bear off and are the next boat to the committee boat, you have to come up or hit someone below you. It's a chain reaction and sometimes you cannot give the guy above you any room. He has to see it developing and bail out via a tack away from the com. boat, circle around and then start in the back row.

He doesn't get to bear off and hit you, and then claim you didn't give him room to keep clear, because you cannot bear off without hitting the guy below you. That is why I don't like to start right at the com. boat in a crowded agressive fleet. You will get hosed!

Man, you guys are soft.

Two pages already and nobody gave Tim crap for calling this guy "cute" and drinking beer with him?

The same thing applies at mark roundings. Chain reaction protests. If you couldn't give the inside guy room without hitting someone above you, you must protest the guy that prevented you from coming up in order to keep yourself from being subject to a protest from the guy under you that had to hump the mark.

You guys are making it too complicated.

Inside boats are owed room at finishing marks. You can't use the finishing mark or boat as a pick. You murdered that last tack and got beat - live with it.

But do you have to be soooooo mean about it?