New User/New sailor

Just saying hey to everyone on here.. I'm going to be needing a lot of your help!

I recently purchased a 1990 Nacra 5.8 and am currently working on getting it all refreshed and ready to sail.



Now, I have lived on the water and around boats my entire life, but I have 0 experience with a Nacra and only a little with a Hobie 16, so please bear with me.

What I have replaced so far:
-Cam Cleats on jib and main sail blocks.
-Here is why.
-Main sheet and jib sheet lines.

This boat already has a double trapeze set up but needs shock cords return lines. Any advice on the length and width of these I will need?

It also need new shock cord to hold the dagger boards in place. Any advice on these size of these?

It came with a new tramp I need to lace on and all the shrouds and stay seems to be in good shape, as well as the diamond wires?

Any advice is GREATLY appreciated and I can't wait to sail it.

Thank you.

-I did think of another question. How should the bridle for the jib be attached to the hull? Cable? How ling? I will put a pic up tomorrow of how it currently is.

Use the search engine on this site and you will see a whole lot of Nacra 5.8 fans out there and check the Performance Catamarans site for the assembly manual. Also you'll get more resonse with a more specific thread title that mentions the 5.8 Ed

Trapeze shock cord 2 pcs 3/16" X 8'
Tramp back lace 1/4" X 10'
The dagger boards are held in place with side loaders do you have them?
Did your boat come with a bridal foil assembly? There are 2 versions of the nacra 5.8, a standard and a nacra 5.8NA the NA will have the bridal foil the standard will have just bridal wires

Just my preference, but it does work better...Use seperate shock cord for each trapeze and double the lenght(run to other side and back around a small block. The advantage is you or the crew can go around the forestay in a stuff and the shock cord will be long enough to not break. If it does break, then only 1 trapeze is flyng around loose instead of both side(if they were connected together).
Instead of shock cord for the daggers, glue in a piece of carpet to give the dagger well resistnace to the board. The shock cord will get inyour way, and the carpet is just a cleaner solution.

The bridle should be a seperate 2 piece cable witha connector plate tying them together in the middle. The forestay attaches to the plate. Some boats were retrofitted with an aluminum crosspiece(cant remeber the name) that the forestay attches to, bringing the tack of the jib lower.

One suggestion, take your mast off the boat and float it in the water. Anywhere it bubbles, seal it!

Godd luck, keep us posted, and always wear your pfd on a cat, especially if you are new to cats and its getting colder.

Note bridle foil on the ground in first photo.

I think you have to read the "TEST" thread from beginning to end in order to complete your training, grasshopper...

Yep, as someone noted it does have the bridle foil. In the owners manual it looks like it is held on by cable but that is not the way the previous owner had it.

And it did come with the side loaders(is that the roller type thing?)

I will check the mast. My friends Hobie mast leaked like the Titanic and ended up weighing 300 pounds when it broke off one rough day. Lesson learned there!

Thanks for the help everyone.

Welcome to the crowd Mr Blow Boater,

I'm a little short of time now but I will post in later on the N5.8 Jib Luff Thread .... please read it when I do and I'll explain how to rig a jib Luff Tensioner/Downhaul and install a bowfoil as I have done both on my P19MX, Ok. It's straight forward but no sense in you re-inventing the wheel.

Yes that "rollie thingie" is for the daggerboards ... it's usually attached/tied to the shroud/sidestay w/ the rollie part on the inside of the daggerboard pulling outboard.

Where are you on the Chesapeake Bay??? Ed/Lucky Duck is at Gailsville, Mark Schieder is at Pedickery Point, I'm over at Rock Hall YC ....

And one last little thing ... if you notice we all sign our posts w/ our names ... it is a matter of honor amongst us .... ( there have been "ISSUES" in the past w/ anonymous posters saying nasty things ....), so please be so kind as to sign your name.

I have to go now and get some work done outside while there is daylight to work in.

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC-Open Class
Rock Hall Yacht Club (member)

Foil adjuster (to hull) part #9893, basicaly just a 10 hole shroud adjuster

No offense, but I never sign with my name. And I'll probably never do. I'm not anonymous either as there are a number of people from my club on this board, and they can all vouch for me: I really exist! And if you look through my post you can find the club I'm sailing at and my sail number, or even the last regatta I went to and the results of it.

The reason for using an alias is not for lack of honor or to offend anyone but it is because my name is relatively unique and I don't want my sailing activity to register more than my professional activities in search results. ie, when my name is pushed into google I want my resume to pop up first, not some crazy idea I had related to sailing...

So please do not assume that all posters not using their real names are somewhat hiding for a nefarious purpose. There are reasons that could make us choose not to use our names.

Pepin,

That's easy. Just misspell your name. My name is so common that I have 12 that work for my company alone. I get calls from bill collectors regularly looking for some dead beat Mike Hill. And, No it's not me.

Some people use their name and others don't. Certainly not to big of a deal unless you come in here looking for a fight.

Welcome to the site. There is a wealth of info here.

Your foil attaches to the hulls with two short wires. Then one long wire attaches to the bridle foil and to the main hound on your mast. There is some adjustable chain plate that attaches to the foil part and then you attach the main wire to that.

Good Luck. Do searches and ask specific questions and you will get good answers.

Mike Hill
N20 #1005

This is patently false and entirely misleading.

Whether or not we sign with our real names is irrelevant compared to the quality of the words and ideas that we post.

I COMPLETELY AGREE>>>> Pepin's ideas related to sailing are CRAZY!!!!! hehe...

Hey Mike. Are my bill collectors calling you again? Just tell them I died, or is it that you died. Oh wait, my name is not Mike Hill. Seriously though, welcome to a fun group of knowledgable sailors.

As a totally unbiased sailor I welcome you to the forum and acknowlege your superior ability to choose a cat. It took me a few different cats before I got the 5.8 and you managed to purchase the best catamaran ever made first time round .
regards

Dave, where are you securing the ends?

1 to the trap' handle ... other around the block [tied to opposite tramp lace] and back to ....? where?

Get jake to step in here and post his most excellent tramp bungie system. Its overkill but we use a toned-down version of it and it works great.

Ok, MD Blow Boater,

I posted over on the thread "N5.8 Jib Luff Tensioner" some information you should find of value. I noticed in the pic you do not have a Jib Luff Tensioner Blocks installed on your bowfoil ... but it is a simple system to add that improves the boats performance and adjustablity/tuning

If you wish to look at my P19MX it is still rigged at Rock Hall YC for the next week or so before I pack her away for the winter. Bring a camera and you can take all the pic's you wish ... Sunday's are best as it is Goose Season and there is a Duck/Goose Blind 100' from the boat that is leased for the season on the property .... (a gentleman DOES NOT interfer w/ another gentleman's hunt)... there is no hunting allowed on Sundays

You can send me a PM if you wish ....

Harry Murphey

KISS, just tie it off on the opposite side tramp lacing where the rear beam and hull meet.

I forgot ... the idea above about increasing the trapize shock cord length is "KEY"

I tie two Harken Double Air Blocks to the underside of the tramp to the lacings at the rear corners .... string the 1/4" bungie from (for example) the "Skipper's trap starboard side, through the hull, then over diagonally to the double Harken Air Block on the port side, around/through the block then across the rear of the tramp to the starboard block, through that block continueing diagonally over to the port hull and through it to attach to the portside Skipper's trap. Repeat for the Crew's trap using the un-occupied pulleys in the double blocks. (origonally I had a bunch of single blocks tie on ... then I cleaned the system up by using double blocks

Harry Murphey

I finally know what it's like when I talk to non-Jeep people about Jeeps.

I'd love to come check out your cat Harry but that's quite a hike to there and I have to work Sunday night. I'm in Sparrows point, closer by water to you than land. With the season that it is I doubt I will get it out before spring, so I should have plenty of time to get everything straightened out.

I've been out of town for the last 2 days but I'm catching up on reading the Jib luff tension adjustment post, trying to grasp it all.

Hi MD Blow Boater,

Ya, you are correct, I can stand at Graditude/RockHall Harbor and see Sparrow's Point but it is a 2 1/2 hr drive by car to get there.

I have a friend who lives on Bodkin Creek and sails his beach cats out of there .... I for years sailed out of the Flanigan's property which is just south of Anne Arundel County's "Jack" Downs County Park and north of Gibson Island .... so if you see Beach Cats to your south they are my friends or even me as I sometimes return to sail there.

I hope you understand what I was trying to discribe about the bowfoil/jib luff tensioner and Trapeze Bungie systems.

I will try and borrow a digital camera and take some pic's ... I have several projects that I'm helping w/ that require me to take pic's and E-Mail them out ... my 13yr old niece has promised to help me w/ the E-Mailing part ...

My E-Mail address is listed in my profile or you can send me a PM (Private Message) through this forum

FYI- for local Chesapeake Beach Cat Racing information please go to www.sailcrac.com .... in June we have a "Open Class Start" at Rock Hall Yacht Club ...in July we have two more local Open Class events at Cambridge Yacht Club and Corsica River Yacht Club (Centerville Md) ... there is also racing at Gailsville/West River, I just do not know the dates/times.

Keep in touch

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
Harry Murphey
H18Mag/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86,CRAC-Open Class
Rock Hall Yacht Club

MD Blow Boater:

Welcome to cat sailing on the Chesapeake. In addition to Harry's list. There is a "casual" weekend event around the corner out of Gunpowder State Park in May. A good opportunity to meet some of the local catsailors.

The West River races are Tuesday nights, spring and summer; and Sunday noonish for frostbite.

Kris Hathaway
F-16
WRCRA


Pssss...If you get frustrated with refitting the N5.8, I have a 2003 Nacra F-18, in great shape and cheap.

Thanks for reminding me Kris, I called Danny Flanigan and he said the tentative date for Gunpowder should be May 2nd & 3rd. The date will be confirmed in early December.

Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC-Open Class

Hey guys. I'm back and been working on the boat some more. I just replaced a sheave today on the base of the mast and I'm trying to figure out the downhaul system. The owners manual is worthless for this, and I'm not even sure this is standard.

Here are some pics.

Starboard:


Port:


Here is a guess of mine but it doesn't involve the extra block on the bottom. I also added a free hanging one to the set up.


I don't need an overly complicated system. I'd just like to use what I have for now. So, please tell me if I am way off. I'm guessing the other cleat and pulleys are for the jib?

EDIT: I just thought about this. Could I use a double block at top and run it down to both of those lower pulleys? And if I do that could I dead end it on the bottom of the upper pully instead of the mast itself?

both of those blocks on the side of the mast should be used in the downhaul. there generally isnt part of the downhaul dead ended to the mast unless you are trying to make a cascading system.
however, looking at the other side of your mast there isnt the same configuration so forget what I said.... your mast isnt playing by the rules


The system you diagramed should give you 6:1 if I am correct which, depending on your boat/mast/sailing conditions might be enough but I have 8:1 on the Blade and had 12:1 (but now that i think about it, maybe it was 14:1 when i doubled it with the cascade)on the 6.0. I think N20s run at least 12:1?

EDIT: I just thought about this. Could I use a double block at top and run it down to both of those lower pulleys? And if I do that could I dead end it on the bottom of the upper pully instead of the mast itself?


Yes, I think that would work and would give you 8:1 (once, again, I believe)

Hi,

You kind of have the idea but not quite the execution. Here's how I "THINK" it would be rigged.

First you need a "Harken Micro Triple Block tied to a piece of 1/4"dia line approximentlly 18" long ... that gets rigged through the grommet on the sail and down to the "JR Jam Cleat on the side away from the "Cheek Blocks" with the block dangling under the sail, OK?

Next, Take your downhaul line and tie one end to the "padeye" just above the "Cheek block" in the middle ... take the line UP through the "Triple Block"(end sheeve) ... then down and through the "Cheek Block" in the front ...UP again and through the "Triple Block"(middle) ... then down and through the middle "Cheek Block" (just below the padeye) ... back UP to the "Triple Block"(other end) then down and through the "Exit Block" in the "Luff Track" .... OK???? You may need to try different orders of threading to eliminate any "crosses/twists" so the line feeds CLEANLY.

Now, here's the "Trick" to the system ... to remove the sail, just remove the single line attached to the "Triple Block" from the "Jr Jam Cleat" and out of the "Grommet" ... and the sail is ready to come down.

Not a bad of a system actually. Now what alot of us have is what you have on the one side of your mast on BOTH sides of our masts w/ two "Exit Blocks". This will double the ratio of the downhaul, make it continious and makes it adjustable from both sides. (we tie the downhaul to the traps or shrouds on either side so as to reachable on either tack. To lowwer the sail we just untie the "Triple Block" from the sail ... leaving the rest of the downhaul rigged.

Next, I'm not sure ... but I think you have the wrong "Mast Rotator Control Arm" or at least there is a "Up-Graded" part (Mast Over-Rotator Arm availible at Murray's P/N 25-3040 or 25-3041 {different size bolt holes}) ... This type of "rotator control arm" allows the mast to be over-rotated for increased performance downwind.

Harry Murphey

Ok, I just drew what you described. I totally understand now. And the 1/4" line just runs bare though the grommet?

Thanks guys for the pointers. Now I have to go buy myself a micro triple block.

G'day again I've been having great fun on my 5.8 while you've been hybernating. I took some photo's of the downhaul setup on my 5.8, this has a continuous sheet that you put around your sidestays and tie the ends together so that your crew can use it on the wire. You just put the hooks through the eye in your sail and pull down.
I sorted out my jib downhaul by putting a camcleat on the chainplate on the bridal foil. Previously I had it go around a block then to a cleat on the main beam but this made the bowfoil rotate upwards into the wrong position to support the mast.
regards

More photo's

Hi,

Yes, the line runs "bare" through the grommet and down to the Jr Jam Cleat ..... or to that padeye on the port side down low. On a second look/thought you maybe currect that the "cheek block and Jr Jam Cleat maybe used together to give you some mechanical advantage and cleat for you jib halyard. I'ld have to see your halyard to determine that. Do you have a pulley up high on the forestay? Is there a 1/4" length of line attached at the end of the halyard??? How long?

That system would be a rudamentory "Jib Luff Adjustment".

I think you need to see my P19MX ... it has the up-graded systems (adjustable from the trapeze)that can be installed on your boat quite easily and fairly cheaply.

Small Steps ... one at a time.


At this point, I would suggest that the first priorities be that you purchase/install the "Over Rotator (Controll) Arm" since you have NO Over-Rotation at all, next up-grade your downhaul system. The "Arm" is the cheapest, quickest upgrade and really helps the boats downwind speed. The downhaul will be slightly more expensive w/ the additional "exit block" for the other side being the most expensive part plus some other misc parts. After installing them, then I would consider changing the "Jib Luff Adjustment" system over to something like mine that is adjustable from the wire/trapeze.


Keep in Touch ..... maybe I can stop by and see your boat sometime. I can route myself over the Francis Scott Key Bridge when I'm headed south to Gibson Island or Annapolis ....

Harry Murphey

Hi Jeff,

Nice clean looking boat you have there "Down Under". I'm studing your pics but I think I'm missing something .... how does the downhaul line pass behind/aft of the mast, from side to side??? does that shackle w/ a pigtail and sm block get attached to the grommet/sail that I see in one of the pics??? And the other blocks w/ the "cunningham hooks" get hung onto either side of the sail at the grommet???

I don 't see the Over-Rotator Arm on your boat .... most of the N5.8's over here have been retro-fitted with one for windward-leeward race courses. What's your thought's???

Yes, I the same problem when I installed the bowfoil on my P19MX ... but I experimented w/ the location of some cheek blocks on the foil and made the system adjustable from both port and starboard sides ... the line runs out through a camcleat from the crossbar (at the hulls) to the end of the foil on both sides ... turns on a cheek block and crosses the bowfoil ... as it passes from side to side it passes through a small block w/ a small shackle. This shackle get attached to the tack of the jib. The shaft/post of the small block allows the block to spin 360degrees so the jib can assume the correct "entry into the wind". I had to drill out the shaft/post slightly so the shackle's pin would fit. With the rig tension on the P19MX if I "pull" the bowfoil, I know I have on too much jib luff tension. That may not be the case on a N5.8, I do not know how much rig tension is correct for a N5.8 ....

Again I like the pics ... it always nice to see how others have solved problem ... there's usually more then one solution. (I got a (cheap) Digital Camera for Christmas, now I just need to learn how to post pics on the forum ....)


Harry Murphey

These are some slick rigs you guys have. This summer mine is going to be for pure recreation and then I'll be ready to dump some more money into it next winter to get everything top notch. (The Harken Cat Quick Rig Downhaul block looks like an easy, although expensive, way to switch to a downhaul system similar to what you and most serious guys are running. Murrays PN 28-0359)

As for the jib halyard I honestly have no idea how that is currently set up. I might try to pull it all out tomorrow and have a look/take some pictures. So far I'm working in baby steps.

And the mast over rotator, I checked it out on Murrays. It doesn't look very much different from what is on it now(un-trained eye)?

I'd love to see you boat. A friend of mine is driving down to south in 2 weeks to pick up a Nacra 6.0 and we are open to see any and all designs that people have so we can get ours properly set up. Once you have it rigged up for the season we'd definitely want to come check it out, if you are willing.

You've already got the mast rotator, it's in front of the mast and allows you to positively lock the rotation so the mast doesnt flap around in chop and light wind you can see it and how its rigged in photo's 4 and 5 I posted. You will also have a cleat on each side of the mast, a piece of sheet will go from the beam to the mast rotator back to the cleat. Once you get used to it you'll love it.
I would really recommend a good downhaul system as you will use it all the time, if you pull your main on the sail will stretch out of shape if you dont pull your downhaul on at the same time and its also the way you will keep your cat flat.
For your downhaul all you need are 2 x 20mm double blocks, 2 hooks and 1 (Ronstan RF5) or (Harken 291 pivoting exit block), you can pick these up on e-bay quite cheap. The pivoting block in my picture of the jib downhaul is a Harken, I bought 3 for $15 on e-bay. The sheet feeds continuously through all the blocks, goes around your sidestays and is tied together on your tramp. This enables your crew to just reach down next to the sidestay grab the sheet and adjust the downhaul. Harry if you look in the photos you can see it goes through the pivoting exit block up and down through the blocks then goes to the other side of the mast does the same before exiting through the pivoting exit block.
Your jib setup will work no matter what it is for now because its not as important as your downhaul, you will probably have a block on one end of sheet that goes through a block at the top of the forestay and attatches to the jib. You will probably need to tie one end of another sheet to the saddle on the bottom of your mast then pass it through the block back down to the V cleat at the base of your mast. When you put your mast up you tension your rig using the forestay so you dont need to super crank down on your jib halyard it shouldn't make your forestay go slack. The easiest way for now if you dont have anything but a block at the top of the forestay is to just attatch a halyard to your jib thread it through the top block then pull it down your jib luff and tie it off on your bow foil.
Harry to post pics click the "full screen" button, click "file manager" and follow the steps
regards

Hi Guys,

First the "Over-Rotator": Jeff what you have on your boat is called a Rotator Controll Arm (according to the catalogs). A "Over-Rotator Arm is trapizoidal in shape (almost triangular) ... you replace the Rotator Control Arm w/ the Over-Rotator Arm with the small end mounting on the mast and install the lines diagonally, crossing to the other side in the front corners (port to starb and starb to port ...Ok??? Now when you pull on the adjustment line it will "over-rotate the mast an extra 10-15 degrees when you are sailing downwind. Combined with the easing of the outhaul, traveler and mainsheet the pocket is moved forward and the sail is much fuller ..... it makes a huge difference going downwind in light to medium conditions, heavy air not so much ..... w/o a spinnacker.

My forestay is set-up like Jeff's on the bottom ... my jib halyard (non-stretch Spectra) is set-up basically like a Hobie 18 with the halyard going up the forestay w/ a turning point up high and returning down the forestay and being attached to the chainplate adjuster w/ a small shackle. This means the jib is fixed at the head/top and tension adjustment is applied at the tack as I discribed above. When we round the leeward mark my crew will pre-adjust the jib luff to remove the wrinkles .... after we have rounded and I've sheeted the main in, my crew will then re-adjust/fine tune the mast rotation, downhaul, outhaul and jib luff adjustments as required. I do have a 3X1 on the jib luff system as it runs from the bowfoil back to the front crossbar to make adjustment easier and 'finer", Ok???

Second: my P19MX downhaul is almost designed exactly like yours ... but I have a additional "Single Block" attached to the mainsail at the grommet. So when my line exits that cheek block closest to the mast base/luff track, it goes up and through the single block crossing over the boom and down to the cheek block on the other side at the mast base then through the rest of cheek blocks/blocks and exiting through the "Exit Block"... is that how your system is configured??? Thats what I'm confused on ... how the line "crosses over".

Jeff, does your bowfoil move slightly side to side??? I installed diagonal lines (in an "X")of 1/8" spectra to keep the bowfoil centered and locked in place ... Just replace the clevis pins on your bridle pigtails with small shackles so you have somewhere to tie the spectra to. I like shackles w/ captive pins ... I almost dis-masted once when I pulled the clevis ring out and then lost the pin from the side-stay to anchor pin... luckily we saw it before we tacked (close one!!!! we were in a distance race on the far side of the bay w/o anyone in sight to help)

Got to run now
Harry Murphey

Md,

You don't need to spend all that $$$'s on that fancy Harkin Downhaul system ... and you'll need to modify it anyway. You can re-use what you have and only need to buy half the parts. As I offered above, I can come by and discuss w/ you some ideas that will save you some $$$$$'s .... I believe you have my E-Mail address (it's in my profile also) or send me a PM here on the forum.

And please plan on coming/attending the Gunpowder Regatta (May 4-5th) and RHYC (June 20th-21st) ... and we'll get you "started" (Ha, Ha, Ha ... there's a joke in there)

Harry

I think I found what the previous owners were using for the down haul. It's the way you described but with a double block.


And here is what I have for the jib halyard. It's a cable with a pulley that comes off of the forestay and then at bottom is a rope with another block on it.



Rope end.


Ideas?

G'day again the first photo looks like my original jib halyard tensioner but would certainly work as your current downhaul.
Whats the 3rd photo attatched to? That will give me the clue of where things end up.
The second photo is your jib halyard the end your showing attatches to the top of the jib. If the third photo is the other end of your jib halyard, that will go from where the rope's tied to the becket down to the block on the base of the mast back up through the block in photo 3 then into the V cleat.
regards

I agree ....

Harry Murphey

Awesome, now I just need some warm weather.

Where can I find more information on the Gunpowder Regatta and the RHYC? I checked out the web site and see that the RHYC race is from the Chester River Yacht Club to the RHYC. How is that race? We sail on the open bay where I live. Does the river get good wind? I just have to get my friend on board for this and find out which of our boats to use when we can race. He might boot me from his team though due to weight, haha.

Also, for lacing the tramp: would 'Vectran Cored Double Braid' be a good option in either 3/16" or 1/4"? Any advantage to thicker lacing?

Hi Md,

The Gunpowder Regatta will be hosted by Hobie Fleet 54 at the Gunpowder ST Park/Hammermill Area(@ the Concession Bldg) and has a "Open" Fleet Class start on May 2-3rd. This is really, really close to you. (I'll be racing my TheMightyHobie18 there if I'm not on Race Commitee)

That's the "Down the River Race" on Friday June 19th. Rock Hall Yacht Club's Annual One-Design Regatta follows on Sat/Sun, June 20th-21st at RHYC. The Down the River race is a "Hoot", it's a "Run What You Brung" format ... there are traditional Chesapeake Log Canoes, Catamarans, Lightnings, Windmills, Comets, Lasers ...etc I wouldn't be surprised if someone uses an Opti! It's just a really fun race down a the river with lots of turns and a party afterwards at RHYC. I can 't say that it is a windy race as it is usually light to med winds, but it is a fun race. Then you can race Sat/Sun at RHYC in the area that's is nice and wide w/ good breezes and flat water where the Chester River widens out and the Corsica River along with Langford Cove joins in. Minimal power boat traffic.

As you both have Nacras you'll be racing in the "Open" Class on the Chesapeake Bay. Have you checked out the "Open" Class web site? If not, goto www.sailcrac.com there you will find lots of information. There is also the West River Sailing Assoc, they race on the West River just below Annapolis, Roger Holmes and Kieth Chapman organize those races. (I think their website is linked to the sailCrac website)

There will be several other "Open" Class Races in July, Cambridge YC's (July 20-21st)on the Choptank River and Corsica River YC's (July 25-26th) on the Chester River @ Conquest Beach/Spaniard Point. Both are very nice venues w/ camping so they are reasonably cheap and are fun times.

Some of the guys are using 1/8" spectra/vectra/dynema non-stretch line. I do something a little different since I hate re-tensioning my tramp all the time ... I use 1/2" bungie cord (availible at Fawcett's Marine Supply in Annapolis)... this keeps the tramp tight all the time, it makes it in fact self-adjusting/retracting. (But you need really strong bungie!!!) I believe that the average tightness of my tramp is greater then if I used non-stretch line (as the tramp stretchs if the line doesn't too) over the course of a day's racing. (Besides I want to be socializing after racing not tightening a tramp for the next days racing) Try either and decide for yourself.

Got to run off to a computor class to improve my skills

HarryMurphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC/Open Clas
RHYC Catamaran Fleet Captain

If you don't care about a stiff (and therefore fast) boat then you can use bungie. Its certainly more comfortable. However a drum-tight tramp contributes to the platform stiffness and a stiffer boat, is a faster boat.

Yes, I agree the tighter the tramp, the faster the boat...

But there are two components to a tramp system: the tramp itself and the line used for lacings ... the tramp stretchs and the line can too or can not if you use non-stretch lines like spectra/vectra/dynema etc

Now my TheMightyHobie18 has a solid vinyl tramp laced w/ 1/2" bungie, my P19MX has a nylon mesh tramp laced w/ 1/8" spectra, Ok.

I've started the day racing on the P19 and by mid-day the tramp is sagging ... now in theory the line didn't stretch so the tramp must have stretched. Either way the result is a loose tramp which is not "fast"

Now I've raced my TheMightyHobie18 laced w/ 1/2" Bungie Cord and at the end of the day my tramp is still tight ... in fact it is so tight that it meets on the centerline. You can not get a tramp any tighter then that.

So it's been my observation that while you can initially get a tramp slighly tighter with non-stretch spectre if you average the tramp tightness over a period of time/races the 1/2" Bungie keeps the tramp on average tighter as it self-adjusts. And most people do not re-tighten their tramps every day after racing. Also remember I'm talking about 1/2" "Mongo" Bungie not some 1/4" or even the 3/8" that people tried years ago.

Now my TheMightyHobie18 keeps up w/ every other TheMightyHobie18 in Div11 and points with them as well .....

There are usually more then one solution to any problem .... some people pinch/point and go slow, some people foot and go fast ...

By the way, I like your dog ... he has that Pirate look, Grrrrr ...

Harry Murphey

Oh, I forgot the most important thing ... "the Idiot on the stick" ...and that's me. I'm what slows the boat down !!!! by making poor decision on the race course.

Harry

Maybe ya need to lay off all those meatballs, and the tramp might not stretch so much.

Tawd

p.s. My bet is on your knots slipping or setting in.

And I was thinking about making some meatballs for you guys for the Down the Bay race ... no meatballs for you, Todd

I think the beer has a bigger impact on my wieght ..... (maybe I just need to drink more Wild Turkey 101).

Could be the knots ..... but how do you get around that? You have to untie them to re-tighten the tramp ... you tie them again, race the boat ... and the knot "set-in again. Seems like a vicious circle.

My TheMightyHobie18 tramp sounds like a big base drum .... buum, buum, buum .... remember I pull and stretch the bungie a fair amount .... in effect "Pre-loading" the tramp.

Harry Murphey
Harry

I've tightened my new tramp twice.

1st time when I put it on.

2nd time after I had sailed it for a couple hours and it had "settled in".

Its been tight as a drum ever since.

Yep Harry,
Mine is like Thadeus said, put it on, tighten in the summer sun and that's usually it for a long,long time.
Sounds like something is up with your tramp.
I was just trying to help you out and you cut me out of the meatball loop.Thanks,buddy.

Todd,

I do except bribes ... the currency is cold, bottled and preferably a LAGER ....

What are you guys using for lacing lines??? Material/size???

I found basically the same thing but it would take me approximently 3-4 times to stretch out the tramp and get it to be tight enough that it would not stretch any more. I know I'm not as big or strong as either of you ... maybe I just don't get it as tight the first time. I have a new tramp for the TheMightyHobie18 but I still need to purchase the lacing line. I'll look at using non-stretch spectra, I'll compare the costs, the 1/2" bungie is getting expensive and I can only get it at Fawcetts (near the city dock in Annapolis). What I do like about the 1/8" spectra is you can double lace the tramp ... lacing in both directions. The 1/2" bungie fills the grommet so you can only lace it once.

What do you use to tighten the tramp? I've used one of those tramp tightening tools you twist and I've used a "boot hook" you use to pull on your cowboy boots. With both I used two pair of needlenosed visegrips to clamp the line at a grommet so I could lace some more (or rest my sore hands).

Oh, the Chesapeake Cruising Multi's are thinking of doing the Down the Bay Race instead of the Annapolis-St Micheals Race on Memorial Day Weekend. They are taking a survey as we speak.

Harry

1/8" amsteel and a hook with a handle,like a boot hook I guess.Pull ,pinch,move to the next lace.

Harry I think our tramp lacing styles are a bit different. Ours lace up at the sides and the back. Does yours go down the middle? Those are a bitch to tighten.

On mine I just put a glove on and use my giant meatpaw to tighten her up. No tool required.

In a message with Dazz, he recommended lacing each hook to the tramp individually. Do you guy do that and maybe have pictures? And would there be any detriment to using 3/16" line over 1/8"?

I think my just laces on the back and up one side for tension.

Yes and No ...

The Hobie laces up the middle and across the back ... it can be a b_tch. I have to lace it on the ground crawling around or pull the boat halfway off the trailer and rest the sterns on sawhorses. That's why I "whimp" out and use the bungie maybe .... lace once, stretching the bungie a good bit and I'm done for 3-4yrs (and the 1/2" bungie is much easier on the hands)

The P-19MX has a Sunrise Tramp on it that is constructed on a diagonal bias. It only laces across the back, SWEET!!! The original "factory" tramp laced down the portside and across the back. I highly recommend Sunrise Products ... very high quality and the diagonal biased design laces up nice and tight w/ no wrinkles ... they supply alot of tramps to larger multi's also. I can lace/tighten the tramp while the boat is on the trailer standing up.

So the TheMightyHobie18 is a little tougher to lace or tighten .... the P19 is easier.

But my hands ache either way just thinking about lacing/tighting tramps ....

Harry Murphey

MD,

1/8" spectra/vectra/amsteel/dynema has a rated breaking strength of 2200-2500lbs. You don't need anything greater ... in fact it could use it as "standing rigging" anything bigger is just overkill and added wieght to the boat

Harry

Nice! If Todd doesn't want them then my team will take-them-there-meatballs...stop posting and get cookin'!

I remember a post about a method to tighten the tramp lacing on an H-16. It involved putting a line around the rails and twisting with a piece of wood to bow the side rails in. That allowed you to pull the center lace tight and then release the tension on the rope. Maybe someone has done this or read that post and knows more about it.

Howard

No Rails.

I'm sure I'll be corrected here by a Hobie history buff, but they raised the tramp on rails on the H16 when they realized that they'd but in the water a good deal of time on that boat.

'Where we're going, we don't need__________.' (from back to the future). Fill it in with whatever you want, rails, gas, sails, grass, motors, tales, rotors, etc.

The other Todd

Quick question. I just rigged up the shock cord to hold the daggers in place. Does anyone have problems with the rear of the board cutting into the shock cord?

I probably just have to sand that edge smoother?

Are you running the shock cord through anything? Typically, it is a PVC pipe encased in high density foam or rubber. The "pipe" is longer the board and avoids sawing the cord. Sometimes, I've seen it with only 1/2" PVC.

"I'm sure I'll be corrected here by a Hobie history buff, but they raised the tramp on rails on the H16 when they realized that they'd but in the water a good deal of time on that boat."

I have no idea how they decided on the raised tramp frame, but the H14 came before the H16. For the H16, it looks like they just scaled up the 14.

There is a school of thought that says be careful how tight you make the tramp. You could stretch it to the point that it will meet in the middle, and you would no longer be able to take away the slack. For that reason, I wouldn't recommend squeezing in the side rails.

I have no idea what a boot hook is, but on my 16 (laces up the middle and across the back), I use two combination wrenches and several pairs of vice grips. Make a "T" with the wrenches, use the open end of the larger one to twist the line. Use the vice grips to hold the line at the grommets as you work your way down. I learned this at Madcatter many moons ago...

No matter what, your back is usually in pain after adjusting a tramp.

Mike

I do have it going through the foam with some thin walled PVC inside the foam but the PVC is the same length as the foam. So it still allows the cord to contact the board.

The 14 & 16 have always had raised rails.



If the two halves come together, you have other problems.

Strapping the rails within reason will do no harm and can only help. Just take a trailer rachet strap and run it around and hook it together under the tramp. Synch it down until you can see an inch of bow on each side. It looks bad, but it works.

Now, lace the tramp as tight as you can accross the back. Do the same for the middle, but you don't need to overdo it at this point. You should use knots at each end of the lacing that can be adjusted later, such as half hitches. Don't terminate with a bowline because you won't be able to adjust it.

Then, make sure the boat is securley tied to the trailer to prevent it from moving forward.

Now run your winch cable hook back and hook it into the center lacing about 2/3rds of the way back and crank it on good. You will see it pull a lot of slack out of the center lacing which wasn't there before.

Now take your vice grip and clamp it on the line at the last grommet past the hook.

Slack the winch cable and move it forward several grommets and do this again and again until you reach the front beam. Tie it off with a few half hitches and relase the strap around the side beams.

You can also use light line (1/16")to make a truckers hitch in the lacing at the rear on each side, to do a quick and dirty snugging. Wrap it about 6-8 times between several lacing points (on the line, not through the grommets) and you can really synch it down.

Watch the various grommets to prevent pulling them out, but a tramp in decent shape should be fine.

Tight is always a good thing!

So...is it actually cutting the cord or are you just worried about it? If the top section of your boards are razon sharp or serrated, you probably should dull them for you and your crew's safety. The whole section that is buried in the dagger well does not have to be tuned like the below hull section.

It's already frayed the cover so I think I should definitely dull it down.(since they are 20 years old, it seems like it has just been beaten flat and the edges of the gel/fiberglass are a bit sharp) Didn't even think about crew safety, good idea.

Thanks.

You don't need to dull it - you just need a longer PVC tube in the center of the foam to spread the bunji out past the back of the board.

I was a bit worried the pvc would break but I have some extra so I'll give it a shot.

Since my virtual VOR boat is named Blow Boat, could you tell me what was the inspiration for your handle?

MD BlowBoater, I really enjoy your style, hauling your catamaran behind a wrangler i gotta get a picture of mine with the top of with my boat behind it!!

Pretty much just got it from my friends that are not fans of sail boats calling sailors 'blow boaters.' Pretty common around here to hear it.



Thanks man, I took that pic after I washed them both and figured it was a good photo opp. Just need some warm weather now to use both of them. Gotta love the Jeeps.

Help has been greatly appreciated.

Test set up in the yard went 100% smooth. Ready to sail.

Beautiful boat, and nice grass. Wish our yard looked like that.

dunno if you know or not, but your traveler isn't set right.

Thanks for the compliment.

And yeah I know the traveler isn't fed through right. I was just making sure I had everything I needed to take her out this week. Thanks for lookin out though.

Great boat, your gonna have fun
Its hard to see in the photo, it looks like your downhaul is threaded through the cleats on the beam? Shouldn't that be the mast rotation sheets cleated there or is there another spot?
regards

Nah, the pic is too small to tell but I don't have anything hooked up through the mast rotation cleats on the beam yet.

Took my friends 6.0NA out today for the first time. That was a pretty fun ride, just can't wait to dump mine in.. we need some beaches here, that we are seriously lacking in.

Hi,

Gunpowder Regatta this weekend over at the Gunpowder State Park Hammermill Area at the Concession Stand .... Come on By

Harry

Hey guys I was just looking at a 5.8 tuning guide and they ran the diamond wires anywhere from 23 to 3 on a Loos guage. Anyone have any more info on when to run what tension or should I just pick a setting and keep it? I put them at 20 today.

Also, I broke a hole in the dagger board well. Don't ask. Anyone ever have to patch that up?

I set mine by the Goose Marine site they have a great tuning guide that explains why you do the settings on the boat. Highly recommended
Go to Goosemarine.com.au click on articles then search out Tuning guide Nacra 5.8
The recommended tension is that you cant make the diamond wires touch the mast 18 inches up from the adjuster. When you read the article it explains why and what adjustments.
Catsailor.net has a great photographic tuning guide go to forums, then Nacra, then Nacra 5.8 Tuning guide it explains what several top boats did in a race series with their diamond wires. If you find you can't point too well on one tack check your tension when mine was too loose it made me go off the course because the middle of the mast bent into the slot depowering it.
As for the hole, sorry really need to know how and where you put the hole in it and how big to work out how to repair it.

regards

"Blow Boater" is an admission that the person does not know squat about sailing. This kind of person is intimidated by the requirement of greater knowledge being applied. At fuel having gone for upwards to $4. a gallon... we will start to see less and less of the mindset.

If they had the chance to get on a fast cat, they almost always change their tune. Wind is FREEDOM!

The typical power boater always comes at you about no wind events. As if that was the norm. I respond with "dead batteries" "limited fuel" "Thousands for a motor"

I was talking to a sailor as I was sitting up my cat one day. He told me the power boat that he has sports a Honda motor... his first motor boat... but each time he takes it out, he worries because it can break down and he does not have a sail to get him home.

I am a proud Blowboater !!! Self taught.

MD, I patched up my daggerboard wells on my 5.2.
They had worn through at the back, lower end, probably from repeated beaching. I tipped the fully rigged boat on its side (can be done solo, but requires a leap of faith to grab the shrouds before the mast goes "Dong"), cut three layers of biaxial woven mat (45x45 degrees)to size (stepping up from lower layers with an inch of overlap to the damaged area to a top layer with two inches approx overlap. Cleaned the area out and sanded with paper on a stick. Then mixed some epoxy, saturated the three layers and the damaged area, draped the patch over a thin stick covered in duct-tape and applied to the "wound". The stick was actually two mixing sticks taped together. It can be used to put pressure on from inside. I then let it get an initial set and turned the boat over to repeat on the other side (which was also worn through and previously "fixed" with PU sealant (thank heavens not silicone!). Tip: do not place your cup of excess epoxy on the hull to cure, it will burn your gel coat!
NB: my daggerboard wells were otherwise structurally OK or I would have had to reinforce them from inside (bummer).

Good luck!

The port board wasn't in far enough and it hit a boat on a boat lift while launching. Punch a small hole in the middle of the well(front) and about a 6" crack upwards. It's only in the paper thin fiberglass so I'd say it's structurally sound still but it leaks, as we discovered about 10 minutes into our shake down run.

Lesson learned there. Why does it always have to be the hard way?

Anyway, some pics.

nasty

what about taking the hull off, leaning/tying it against a tree, getting on a ladder and dripping some thickened epoxy into the crack off a bit of dowel

if possible put some duct tape on the inside of the crack to prevent too much drip through by reaching through the port

could also use 5 minute araldite too prevent too much dripping through if you can't get backing tape on

depending on access and clearance after that you could clean up the set epoxy with sandpaper on sticks and then put a single layer of cloth on. (both sides???)

hmmm that looks nasty. If you use my method on that, be sure you have enough clearance to allow for the added thickness! Otherwise you'll never be able to get the boards down again, they will jam (esp. with sand from the beach in the dagger board well)!

I see from the picture that you have an access port on the back of the daggerboard well. Can you access the cracked area from there? If you can, you should patch the area from the inside of the hull. Just sand around it a little bit, wet a patch of fiberglass and stuck it there.

If you can successfully do that, you're done. If you're anal you can fix the cosmetic inside the well by putting some coarse sand paper around a broomstick, sand the area, and then finishing up by spraying gelcoat + wax additive.

Now if there is a bulkhead and you can't access the area from inside the hull it becomes far more difficult to do a good repair. Access from the inside of the well is too tight to do a good job.

I second "Pepin's" approach/fix to the crack in your daggerboard well. You may need to remover the complete hullport ... ring and all so that you can reach your arm in far enough. But while "Pepin's" suggestion will take a little work up front (removing the hullport) it will be a much "cleaner" fix ... trying to sand out epoxy drips/runs in a daggerboard well can be .... tedious. (I have that merit badge already)

Harry Murphey

If you cant get inside and it's not in need of structral repair.
The way I fixed the cracks at the back of daggerwells in the past was I got one of those old fluffy pink bedspreads your granny used, the ones that had a smooth section about 3 cm then a fluffy section about 2cm. Shape a stick a bit narrower than the width of the daggerwell then wrap a piece of the bedcloth around it a few times until it slides snuggly in the well. I mixed up a standard wesystem just to wet out the area, then made a stiff wesystem with heaps of mycrofibres in it. The cloth will carry a lot of the mix and as you rub it up and down it will force the mix into the hole. Re make your stick with fresh cloth and use it to keep smoothing out any drips and to clean up where you dont need resin. That will get you floating.
regards

I have a port on the back side of the dagger well but the crack is in the front. Too much of a reach there. I could always cut a new port in the front I suppose? Would that weaken the hull too much?

Since the stuff in there is so thin, would just like 3 layers of 12"x6" cloth w/ west epoxy be strong enough? I think I would weasel some into the well. I'm not concerned about looks, just need her water tight.

you are the guy on the spot and will know best what clearances you have etc

this is what i would do....

probably best to leave the cutting of another port as a last resort/winter job if a repair from inside the well doesn't fix the leak

until it gets some fiberglass cloth covering the area, either front or back, it is going to be weaker, so if you are only going to seal the leak, and not get cloth in there, you'll want to make sure that board is either in or out from now on

the next step will depend on how much space you have inside the well

i still think taking the hull off and putting it vertically against a tree or building is going to be your best bet, working with gravity is so much easier than trying to fight it. but if you do that you'll probably need to work from a high ladder and leaning on those can be dangerous...

to try and find out how much space you have between the sliding dagger and damaged area of the well what about trying to cut up and old sheet and sticking in some cotton patches with a water based glue. just as a trial run and to see how many you can get in before the dagger starts dragging them out. if you can get a few layers in, and the board still has clearance, you probably have enough space for a layer of glass cloth

if so, use some cheap long artist brushes to get the resin in there, to wet the area out, and drop a patch on top and then wet out the rest of the cloth

be as clean as possible and as suggested have some dowel with cotton cloth taped on the ends to wipe off any resin that drips where you don't want it. get rid of it before it sets as the last thing you want is a binding board that you have to hammer down and stress the repair

if you find you have no clearance for cloth just go for thickened epoxy CAREFULLY worked into the cracks with brushes and sticks

if you have some 80grit paper wrapped around a dowel you should be able to clean it up reasonably between when the resin kicks and before it goes rock hard

Ports are a definate last resort as they are literally a pain in the backside when your trying to get around on the deck or being carefull to watch where you place your feet instead of your course. If you have to cut a access hole cut it with a jigsaw on a 45 degree angle then when you've made your repair resin in a bit of closed cell foam underneath the deck then resin your bit that you cut out back level with the deck into the hole, dont fill to the top with resin leave a bit of room for gelcoat with wax on the surface and your good to go. Try and do the repair properly as you wont be able to get a patch out of your dagger well easily later.
This is a photo I posted on Beachcats of the deck repair on my Stingray. It started with a port hole cut in for a repair then as it delaminated the previous owner kept adding support underneath but it ended up as a wobbly weak deck.

I managed to wedge in 2 layers of cloth with West Epoxy and no cutting. It's all hardened up and ready to roll. Not sure if it's water tight but I'm sure I'll find out the hard way.

Thanks for the advice.