Safety Quiz

At approximately 1900 hrs on Sat eve June 22, 2009 a skipper and crew set out on his fairly nice Hobie 18.

At approximately 1930, the boat capsized in 18 knots of breeze and calm seas and the skipper was separated from the boat, and it was moving away from him faster than he could swim. The crew climbed the mast and purposely turtled the boat to slow headway, the skipper swam to the boat and boarded.

At approximately 2030 as the sun was setting, the 70' sailing vessel Chardonay II, with 49 passengers aboard saw the vessel in distress and altered course. Chardonay II made contact with the Vessel, radioed the Santa Cruz Harbor Patrol and stood on scene until the Harbor rescue vessel arrived.

The crew was taken aboard and the last known coordinates were reported to the Coast Guard.

Vessel Assist was hired the next morning and started a 6 hour search. Additional coordinates were given to Vessel Assist from a Coast Guard plane that happened to be searching for an overturned fishing boat in the same area.

The boat wasn't found until today in this condition:





These guys were lucky. The water is about 56F, that's a cold night in the water!

What could they have had aboard to facilitate their own rescue?

J

From the looks of that boat, water temperature would not have been a problem. I wonder what ran over it.

I think the safest thing, when sailing on open water, is to always sail on the buddy system, with another boat.

As far as what they could have had aboard to help them, I would think a VHF radio and/or a cell phone and a GPS unit.

Shame, its a proper Boomer too!

The guys did well to stay together. A phone in a waterproof zip bag would have made things easier.

I know stuff breaks or goes wrong, but if you are sailing alone you should always be confident that you can right the boat in all conditions. One of Ricks righting poles or a water bag should have been on board.

Hopefully the dicks that think it is ok to single-hand a 2-hander will take this on board too.

a drogue chute would have keep the boat from drifting so fast. Being able to right the boat from a turtle would have helped as well, but this means that the mast needed to be sealed.

The drift is fastest when the trampoline is perpendicular to the wind. So you can also slow the drift by getting up on the bow and dragging feet (and whatever else you can find to drag), to turn the bows into the wind. And sometimes the boat will even right itself when you do this. I wouldn't count on that happening, but at least the drift will be slowed considerably when the trampoline is in line with the wind instead of crossways.

Things they forgot:

VHF Radio
GPS
Cell Phone
Brains

It's idiots like that that give catamaran sailors a bad reputation.

Ditto.

Ditto to Matt's point

Do you think they even have a clue how to right the boat from a turtle?

Do you think they had a plan B.

A lot of the rec sailors on my beach have never thought about these seamanship issues much less read or talked to someone about these issues.

Good question that might save someone's life.

Never go out on a Yellow Hobie 18 in Santa Cruz. This is just like last time almost an identicle 18 did the same thing.

Have someone on the beach to know your planned arrival time. Always go out with more than 1 boat. Always carry safety gear, Any time I'm in the ocean I have a marine radio, phone, gps, flares , whistle , mirror and flashlight.
If your flares get old then buy new ones and set them off on the 4th of July.

Dude, that must have been a big shark to leave those teeth marks...

[...playing Jaws theme...]

You're going to need a bigger boat!

Smarter people!

Well, one thing they had going for them was that there were two of them. If they had a clue how to right the boat, they would have been all set (assuming the mast was sealed). People really need to practice this before they go anywhere.

As a former idiot, who tried this trick single-handed once (my third time ever on my first Hobie), and wound up out overnight on the bottom of a Hobie 16, I totally agree with Matt's list. At a minimum, the VHF, tied to you, is critical. I used to get laughs and stares when I showed up at fleet events with my VHF, until I told people this story. Amazingly, no one thinks it could happen to them, so not one other person went out and got a VHF to sail with routinely. I won't even go out without one anymore.

Anyway, as for their boat, mine got back in the same shape, and the damage was done by the Coast Guard. They didn't know how to right it, so they tried to drag it in (sideways, I presume). My guess would be that they used grappling hooks, because I've seen them up close, when they show up with a 41-footer, they have zero plans of going in the water to do anything...

Mike

Ok, boat flips and skipper gets seperated. Crew turtles boat and skipper gets back on board. It appears an hour passed and the cruise boat makes contact. We are to understand that the TheMightyHobie18 could not be brought out of the turtle and righted. There is no mention of hyperthermia so they must have been dressed for the water temp.

Either no righting system was on the boat or they just didn't know how to right it.

How much damage was done by the contact and was contact an hour after the initial flip or did they right it and flip again prior to the collision with the cruise boat?

Thread jack - So I've never managed to turtle a boat. How does one actually right from a turtle?

Hawaii state law requires either a VHF radio or EPIRB on every boat.

Which supports the previous conclusion that the missing equipment were brains. Even one brain would have been enough.

Stuff to faciliate their own resuce:

1. Sealed mast and practice righting from turtle
2. A water bag for solo righting (if the skipper had not got back to the boat

Stuff to facilitate a rescue by others:
1. VHF radio - hail on Ch 16
2. SPOT or EPIRB
3. Flares
4. Cell phone in water proof bag (I use the $20 AT&T Go phone from Walmart - my AT&T sim card works in it).

I'm a little shocked at the rude comments by some of the posters on this thread. I'm sure you have probably done some foolish things yourselves in the past. Does anyone know what safety equipment (if any) was on board this boat?

To right a boat from turtle - get it on its side and then right as normal.

To get it from turtle onto its side take the righting line, pass under one hull and over the top (as you would if righting it from on its side). Then lean on the rope off the other hull. If your mast is sealed you will get the boat back up on its side. It can be a little akward maintaining footing on the curved hull surface while leaning out far enough to make her come back up.

I have seen people trying to both lean off the rear cross bar, or off the righting line direct from the dolphin striker without going round the other hull first. Neither approach seems succesful.

To check the seal on your mast, throw it in the water and see if bubbles come out. It should float. Correct leaks with a quality sealent and recheck. If your mast leaks then it can fill with water when you turtle and you may not be able to right it - even with assistance from a power boat. At that point you may have to derig the mast and sails, wrap the lot up, place it aboard and get towed the lot back to shore with the platform still upside down. (Don't ask me how I know this).

Chris.

When you try to right from a turtle. Make sure you get on the stern of the "leward" hull. Your windage will push the boat sideways and the sails in the water will act as sea anchor - slowly lifting the boat to its side.

Hypothermia was a factor, but the crew were dressed for the occasion. No initial damage by rescue efforts, there was no collision with cruising boat. They had a righting line.

Skipper released shroud pins when boat was upside down in an attempt to get it from turtle position.

I post things like this to get us all thinking. I think it's a good exercise to ponder all of the variables in a real-life rescue scenario.

J

I'd like to see the expression on the face of the insurance adjuster who comes out to inspect the damage to the boat!

Good call, Thanks

OK, I reiterate my statement that they left their brains behind. There is nothing so hard to right as a boat without its mast attached.

To get a boat on its side from turtle, do not do what Chris (flumpmaster) suggested - you'll fall and hurt yourself. Get all your crew weight on the downwind aft corner of the boat (sitting). The opposite front corner will start to lift, wind will get underneath the trampoline and it will slowly come up to the capsized position. Then right as usual.

The other thing is safety in numbers. I always felt safe sailing near Newport because there is so much boat traffic.

The righting bag is an interesting point. Most people don't take these out unless they're very light. I know I'm heavy enough and have enough practice to fully right a 16 from turtle by myself in any decent breeze (don't ask me how I know), but if I got separated from the boat, I doubt any of my crews could right the boat alone (with or without the bag) and sail back to me. Hence the VHF on my lifejacket.

I haven't tried releasing the shroud pins since my overnight experience. It didn't work then, and I haven't been brave enough to tempt fate since.

So, just for the record, these guys had me beat in several important ways:

There were two of them.
They were properly dressed.
They were sailing near commercial traffic (I was sailing outsde the bay, on a day with small craft advisories).

This is by no means a contest, just pointing out what I think Chris is saying, new sailors don't always have the benefit of experience. And, on any given day, it can all go wrong, regardless of how much preparation is involved.

EDIT: Matt's anti-turtle technique is the only one that works in large seas. Don't ask me how I know.

I don't care what anyone says, that hull damage only happened one of two ways: collision or "recovery mishap."

Mike

I don't think i understand this statement.
It IS hard to right without a mast?
if so, why?

If the mast is not leaking, it acts as a bouyancy aid and helps righting once it moves out from directly beneath the center of the boat. Once you get the sail above the water, the wind will usually further help you right the boat.



Good call Chris.

One very important thing to remember is have a float plan. Tell someone ashore, family or friends that if you do not call them by sunset or any agreed time, tell them to call the Coast Guard. The sooner we get the information the higher your probability of living is. Also be as specific as possible and give us as much details and you can.

Released both shroud pins? Stupid, no nice way to say it! What did he think the mast was gonna do if he got the boat rolled.

The boat was either hit by a larger vessel or bashed against rocks to break it up like that. I don't think the coast guard would tear it up that much. Not that they couldn't do that kind of damage I just don't think they would, at least not on purpose.

Really? In case you haven't heard this one before...

After I got home from the hospital (was checked out for hypothermia because my lips were still purple 45 minutes after being pulled off the bottom of my turtled 16), I called the Coast Guard to get the last known position of my boat so I could go after it with some friends.

Guy on the phone says "We have a vessel on scene now. Do you have any suggestions on how to right it?"

Long story short, it came back with one of the hulls broken into three, separate, pieces.

Mike

Because the wind helps right the boat.
Search for Power Righting a Catamaran in "Catamaran Racing for the 90's" by Rick White and Mary Wells, for sale in this site, right here

Without the mast, the boat has two, very stable positions: Upside down and rightside up. Getting from one to the other is very difficult.

With the mast, even if it has some water in it (which when submerged has neutral bouyancy) provides a critical intermediate stable position - capsized.

The only boat I've seen righted on the water from turtle w/o a mast is a Hobie 14. It took two guys (me and Greg Raybon - about 360 lbs total) standing on one hull with the righting line over the other hull and we had to "bounce" it over in one quick motion. You'd need probably four or five people to do that with a Hobie 18.

thanks for the details, make perfect sense now

This thread could be a life saver to someone, someday...

I just didn't go out unless I had a boat with me. Before we lost the Dike, I have set down there for hours waiting and go back home because no other boats showed up. It was a bummer, but I lived to sail another day. To many things can happen QUICK out there (breakage, weather). Had a old salt go over with a newbie that had a life jacket that wouldn't close. He weighted about 300. Newbie sled off and old salt had a problem getting boat back over in the rough seas. Boat left the newbie real quick. If I wasn't there to get the newbie onboard, we would of had a funeral, as I had a hard time finding him in the chop. BE SAFE, no sorry.

Doug

Yeah, capsizing in 85* water that's 3 feet deep scares the crap outta me too.

There, fixed it for you. I've yet to hurt myself doing this - you are leaning off the boat over the water. I guess if your feet skate out from underneath you could bust your but on the hull.



Sounds like an elegant trick Matt. What boats have you successfully used this technique on? Something makes me think this may work better on a shorter platform with less flotation at the ends, but I'm happy to be educated otherwise.

Chris.

Doug,
They're having an award banquet for you. Be at the end of the Dike Friday night.

Fair enough . .

I never turtled my Tiger. That boat was the easiest one to right (done it myself in the right wind/waves), but the hardest one to get back on, especially when it wants to take off downwind on you because of the self-tacking jib.

The "rear corner trick" works really well on a Hobie 16 and fairly well on a Hobie 17 - those are the two boats I have personal experience on.

The point is to get something up into the air, even if it's just one bow, so that the wind can get under it and help bring the boat up to the capsized position. While your method will work (I've done it, too - and busted my butt doing it), it's more difficult to bring up the whole side of the boat at once.

works on a Hobie 20, don't ask me how I know
and...it was kind of windy that day
http://funnyinterestingoruseful.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/failboat.jpg?w=450&h=301

Yes, absolutely. Today, while sailing in approximately 10 mph winds, we were getting unexpected gusts of what must have been 15-20 mph. It was like being hit with a solid wall of wind. Things happened quickly.

Anyway, there's too much missing to this story. Like:



Despite all the other considerations which aren't known here... the starting point of all appears to be the tramp causing the boat to set sail. I guess!!???

...there must have been a lot of current too though?

You're a serious tease, J...

So, are there circumstances where one person could not turn the boat into the wind by him/herself?

If I were the crew and if it were the tramp causing the problem and if I couldn't turn the boat into the wind and if I were in enough of a panic to consider CLIMBING THE MAST!, instead I probably would have decided to cut the tramp loose and calmed the situation down. Even taken a knife to it. (Better than losing the whole boat.)

Lee:

Why do you always have to be an butt. Just born in you? I feel good I saved someone life, the guy almost drown. His head was barely above the water when we found him after a 30 min search. If that is funny to you, I feel sorry for you.

Doug

I left the story sort of vague to get everyone to think.

There was no safety gear aboard except for a righting line, if you count that. There is a < 1 kt current running northward and the prevailing wind comes from the NW.

But...the conditions don't matter, there were a few grave errors that we can all learn from no matter where or when we sail.

I also highlighted a few things purposely.

What about the time? Sailing a beachcat with no nav lights around dusk in the open ocean isn't the best approach if you want to keep living.

Just a quick brainstorm and my assessment:

Have a float plan of some kind. Have well maintained gear so that you can minimize your chance of an accidents in the first place. Sealed mast/ float. Good shrouds and anchors. Righting line that you know how to use. Blah, blah, blah.

Have your personal kit ready to go when you need it. Knife, PFD, Wetsuit (or proper sailing gear) etc. That kid that recently died because he was tangled in the trap line could have easily been saved if he or his crew had a knife in their jacket pocket. (RIP, no disrespect). I talked to one of the guys that works with that team and he said the crew were frantically diving underwater to try and free him. One zip with a sharp knife on those Vectran trap lines and it would've possibly done the trick.

And then, if all else fails and you can't self rescue. Call the coasties on your VHF. VHF is the beast bet because it's a direct line to the dudes that are coming out to get you. Most coastie boats, Harbor Patrol have Radio Direction Finders on board, which can aid in them finding you. Carry it ON YOU. Doesn't do you any good sailing away under trampoline power. Like that guy that spent 2 hours in the water last year while every agency and the Surf City Skiff was out looking. His boat was found on the rocks at 26th ave. He rescued it and sails it to this day WITH A RADIO.

I won't even tell you about the guy that flipped his boat last week in a 35kt Northerly in shorts and a T-shirt and his VHF went straight to the bottom because it was stowed on the trampoline. Not in the pocket or tied, just sitting on the tramp. I see all kinds here.

Be safe out there.

J

Edit:
BTW I thought it was a brilliant move for the crew to turtle the boat to slow it down. Have you ever tried to find a head bobbing around in the water. I have. It's waaaay more difficult than looking for a canary yellow catamaran.

Excellent posts, lots of really good information in here for the newbies (i.e. me!)

"there are old sailors and bold sailors, there are no old, bold sailors"- anon.

"the time to reef is the first time it occurs to you."- anon.

The decision to leave shore is yours alone. Some days it's best to just beach comb.

http://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/beaufort.html

Hey Karl,it gets REAL BAD HERE TOO! i could capsize and get a real bad jelly fish sting... and it could get infected. hehe...

just cause it was a "chamber of commerce" day when you were here ... its not all fun and sun! I have been hit with 40-45mph squall lines, we have lost dozens of cats all lined up on the causeway pre-race (mini twister) and i have a good friend who had to take rescue from weather in the mangroves... only to watch a water spout pick up his dart20 and take it for a "SPIN" in the gulf of Mehico. The weather channel came down to re-create and film that one...

J

Back in the day, we did have a public beach where everyone trailered in to go sailing. As a newbie, I could meet other sailors, and I learned a lot by talking to the old guys. Most were recreational sailors (not racers) and they had a lot of invaluable experience.

My current beach is very different. Nobody asks questions. I only butt in when I am sure somebody will get hurt... (Like trying to step the mast without the shrouds attached.)

Did culture change that much??

The first time i brought my new (to me) h16 to the dunedin causeway (10 years ago), i had 4 or 5 people walk up to me and talk to me about how to rig it, and talk to me about the area. that always stuck with me...

We still have new guys walk up and ask us for help/rigging/best areas to sail questions etc...

So that culture is still alive here...

Mark,
You NOT butt in, c'mon.
Actually, I think the intarweb may have replaced alot of the questions of yore. People get on a site like this and can get a bunch of different opinions. Unfortunately ,there is no way to qualify those opinions. Posters can post whatever they want whether it makes sense or comes from experience or not.If you've been around here long you start to be able to tell the seasoned from the inexperienced, sadly it seems the inexperienced voices are often the first to pipe up.
Todd

Todd, why don't you tell your story of getting separated from the boat. It was kind of funny.
Doug, I guess the joke was in bad taste, sorry.

You can tell it, I don't feel like typing that much.Plus someone's feelings might get hurt.Not you,Lee, you don't have any.

Lighten up Francis!

Uhh, that was light.

Worked on a Hobie 21 racing version (with spi), Supercat 17, Hobie 16... I guess it works for most -if not all- beach cats.

Thanks Luiz. I look forward to giving this technique a go the next time the unthinkable happens. I guess you need some decent breeze to make it work, but then again that is typically when turning turtle is more likely.

Chris.

Going out to the back corner works on a tiger. I have tested the theory during the ditch run. Also works on the H-18. Stand on the hull right next to the rudderholding the righting line, as the bows come up walk tward the dagger board anf your in regular capsize..

Lee:

No problem. It was just a scary day. Guy should of had a PFD that fit. Todd had his hands full with righting the boat and it was real SCARY not being able to find the guy in the chop. When I finally pulled his %&*%^%&( weight up on the Mystere 4.3 he was exhausted and white as a sheet. Thank God we found him. People should always have a PFD that fits are stay on the beach in ruff weather. Least we all lived to sail another day. Really miss the Dike, hope they can get it back some day. If you ever want a crew for the Wed nights, let me know.

Doug

getting back on a boat after falling off is an entirely different can of worms... i was so exhausted after righting i almost couldn't get on my cat... and my jib filled w/air and i was steaming toward a rocky seawall...

I've never tried this, but I know people that swear by it.

If you're too tired to pull yourself up with upper body strength, use your legs (and hands and brains)...

Take one of the sheets, and tie a large loop in it (like 2 or more feet across). Tie this to the crossbar, and use it like a ladder step. Basically, you're making a foothold so you can use your (much) stronger leg muscles to get up onto the boat.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Not if the jib is drawing. Don't ask me how I know.

If strength alone fails, you must get the boat head to wind and lose all way.

Get in the gym, gain the necessary strength.

Well, that's a given, you have to stop the boat before doing anything else. But, once stopped, there should be no reason the loop trick won't work.

You can always remove the jib sheet from the boat if the situation is dire enough (although I wouldn't recommend that unless you're really desperate).

Mike

By the time I decided to try the loop, I was already tired and wobbly. In the end, I swam around to the outside of the boat, near the shroud, grabbed the trap. handle and managed to get aboard using legs and arms.

The time spent in the gym is by far the better solution. Now, I practice "porposing" onto the boat each time I go out.

the only time it happened to me (almost unable to get onboard) i was fighting to right it in fast waves (just outside the sand key pass, which gets crazy) and very strong current.

As soon as it was righted the jib filled with air and took off. i had to pull myself up about 20' of mainsheet.. get up front (while its goin 10-15) and get up her.... I was so exhausted... i almost couldn't. I THINK i did end up FEET FIRST.

As soon as i was on board i found out that my main was wrapped around my rudders/travler there was no turing nor uncleating untill it was un-tied.

There was no amount of "going to the gym" that can prepare you for that... i am actually in good shape (from sailing 3 days a week for years).... but i did learn many things that day...

Ok,
Here's what happened in the GT300 this year with Todd Hart and myself. Day two; Todd was driving (I promised him he could steer that day and he was all happy)and we were beam reaching in about 20 to 25 knots and some good chop. We had overtaken Steve Piche and they were about 200 or so yards to our leward and behind. They stopped. This was about mid way into the leg. There are NO places for your ground crew to come get you at this point. We hailed them on the radio and got no response. Funny since Steve was so adament about us keeping our radios on during the race (another story). We came in off the wire and turned to go back to see if they needed assistance. We waited for them to get back underway and we did the same. Todd got back on the wire and I was still on the side of the boat when I heard a loud bang! The boat started to go over before I could release the main. I was trying to throw my weight over the side to get the hull down but it was too late. I lost my grip and pinballed off the boom then the leward daggerboard. I thought I broke my pelvis at first the way I landed on it. It was pretty painfull. I looked back to see Todd about 40 feet behind me and the boat and swimming like hell. I grabbed the mainsheet blocks and was trying to swim towards him to slow the boat. Wind was blowing too much. Waaaay too much. I ditched that plan and went to getting the boat ready to right. I figured at worst case, I would drift it to the beach through the surf and waite for Todd to swim to shore. I pointed the mast into the waves and water and hooked the righting line in my spreader hook and through myself backwards. Nothing. I waited for a good wave to get under the mast and forcefully through myself back many times and finally the mast started comming up. As it did, I climed hand over hand up the righting line pulling the boat down on me. The boat took off for a while with me being dragged underneath still hooked onto the righting line. I figured it would go into irons soon. It did. I quickly pulled myself on board and couldn't find Todd in the rough seas. Piche picked him up and we sailed next to each other and Todd jumped back on with me. What a fun day. If you find yourself too tired to get back onto your boat after righting it, GET TO THE F'N GYM! The life you save could be your own.

Yikes. Glad everything turned out OK.

The advice about the loop was just that, advice. One more idea to have in your back pocket. When the S hits the fan, it's always good to have options. Some people acutally make loops and tie them to the dolphin striker so they are always ready to go. YMMV...

Mike

You could permanently tie that "ladder knot" into your righting line at the perfect length so it will be there when you need it. Why didnt I think of that before now?
Yes, its best to be in the gym, but I have been so tired from sailing hard on day 3 of a regatta that after I swam a long way to catch my boat, my strength was zapped. Thanks to the Tradewinds RC for pulling me up and giving me some water and a rest!

I've thought about this a lot. First the loop is a great idea, but doing it AFTER it hits the fan is no good, I was just dragged under the boat. Having some such device attached to the spin pole is probably a better choice. I will do that as a certainty before any distance sailing. Also, I'm thinking about a long coil of line to trail behind the boat in survival conditions.

Lee, same story but lots and lots of people and boats to help out. My point is this stuff happens a lot, be prepared.

I duck under the hull, grab the trap handle, heel hook the hull an haul up - minimal effort. I locate my feet either side of the dagger board to stay positively located vs. the boat as I duck under the hull. If you make sure your main sheet is not hooked around your rudders and you don't have the main sheet and traveller all the way out then the boat won't tend to take off when it is righted.

Trying to mount an F-18 from the front cross bar is just hard work. You can do it but it burns more energy then getting on from the side.

For bonus points, push your crew onto the lower hull while the boat is coming over - that way they are already on board and stowing the righting line while you climb on the side.

Chris.

"Trying to mount an F-18 from the front cross bar is just hard work. You can do it but it burns more energy then getting on from the side."

But there's nothing to hold on to until you have the trap handle in hand. For me, that's really, really scarey! I'd much rather stay between the hulls if I can. Going "outside", for me, is a last resort.

I have used the improvised ladder many times in monohull racers with no ladder. A good resource to keep in mind.

Another thing I see a lot on the race course is when a boat pitches, and the crew rights it, the stronger crew usually scrambles back aboard and starts getting the boat ready to race again while the crew is still trying to pull themselves aboard. (And it's usually the dude's wife/ GF left in the water--bad form. You know you'll be hearing about it for at least the next few legs and probably at the regatta party and into the next day.)

For crissake pull your FN crew aboard! Grab their life jacket or harness strap and yank, THEN start racing.

I hope a ton of n00bs are reading this thread. A lot of good info.

J

I totally agree with you Pete, singlehanded is a different story I think, and certain precautions should be taken.

I've only lost my boat once, and that was really scary even though it was in the middle of a regular buoy regatta. I swam like a bastard for about 30 seconds and realized there was no fricken chance I was going to catch it in 15mph winds. The whole time I kept thinking, TURTLE!! TURTLE!!! come on you SOB TURTLE!!!!!. It also made me realize that a whistle is a very important piece of equipment when singlehanded and I really wished I had one at the time. That reminds me, I still need to go buy that whistle.

For those of you with a damaged shoulder or 2, or poor upper body strength, or on a tall cat with front crossbar too high for you to climb up: Walk quickly hand over hand underneath to the rear crossbar, get inside the tiller crossbar. Now while ON YOUR STOMACH (face down) hook your STRONGEST leg onto the aft hull while GRABBING onto something on TOP of the tramp with the closest & strongest arm (tramp hiking strap, tramp attachment lines etc). This way your elbow is UP, and you can lever/press your body up with the leg, while pulling strongly to get your chest out of the water.

NOTE: Trying this on your back, means to pull yourself up with your lower leg up on the deck, and the arm elbow-down over the rear crossbar. This does not work, since arms do not bend that way = no strength.

Try this face-down method- to save energy. Even the porkers/oinkers can usually do it.
Also at the back of the boat, you can physically turn the rudders to head the rig into the wind. (Try to do that from the front crossbar- HA!)

first - great story...great ending.

so what was the "bang!"? Was it Todd's disproportionate body hitting the water or did the trap line get a peek at his toes and die?

At Sail Sand Point in Seattle, mandatory first day drill for ALL classes, Opti, FJ, Wave, H-16 etc. Jump off the pier, swim 75ft to your PFD, put on the PFD. Turn over the boat used in your class, then right it. Swim back to pier with your PFD on. After several years finally got our Hobie 101 Classes to do the same thing.

This is also a requirement for anyone being checked out for using the boat in "Open Sailing".

Caleb Tarleton

The bang was his adjustable trap set up breaking (he insisted on changing it to his own). Sorry Todd, I had to say it I think he twisted line when he got back on the wire. I noticed him do it again on another day and pointed it out. It would make the line twist over a somewhat sharp part of the cleat. The whole situation could have been avoided (we feel) if the other team had answered us on the radio. They said they could hear us but were too busy. This whole subject has given myself and a few others some good thoughts to ponder and I look back on all the times I sailed out of Ventura Harbor without a radio. A radio is CHEAP insurance. They are small enough that I'll be carrying one from now on when sailing in the ocean and especially when I'm the only sail boat on the water. BTW, my life jacket has a strobe with good batteries and I have a pack of flares in the trampoline pocket. Whistles? I think they're usless, unless you want to go deaf while waiting for someone to spot you.

How about instead of a rope ladder or rope loops, incorporating some retractible steps into a righting pole. I'm thinking something along the lines of one or two sets of motorcycle pegs mounted to the pole. After righting, you would flip these out and step up onto the pole. The problem with rope ladders is that they are very unstable.

Anyway, just a thought.

sm

Thanks for the idea about the motorcycle pegs.

This problem of the tramp acting as a sail still?! This is a real problem with catamarans that has never been addressed, IMO. I don't care how good you are at boat-righting techniques if the boat is going bye-bye.

Maybe a righting bag should double as a drogue somehow, as Undecided mentioned?

Maybe tramps should have a quick release?

Maybe some way built in to assist in swimming the boat into the wind?

While these guys made lots of potentially life-threatening mistakes in preparation to sail and in choice of location to sail, the moment of life-threatening crisis didn't start until one person was left swimming while the boat drifted off.

Being tethered to a boat is a dangerous option...

No need to apologize,I've taken the blame for that one since it broke. I just wasn't comfortable with frayed 3/16 spectra on a fixed length dogbone set-up. I think the results would've been the exact same with alot more teabagging( the trap/butt in the water kind, don't get excited hobie1616) in the gulf beforehand.

Actually I think I first heard this idea from Bill Roberts and I may have refined the idea slightly. Next time my trampoline is off, we'll be incorporating it into our 20. Basically, put a zipper pocket under the trampoline and have a small drag chute / water anchor in there with some line and a decent carabiner (you can get a weighted/sprung chute with a bridle that will pop open in the water for about $30). If you find yourself capsized and need the system, you unzip the pocket from the underside of the trampoline and pull out the chute, line, and carabiner. One side of the line should remain attached to the trampoline / mast post. With the line feeding through the carabiner, clip it to the forestay bridle on the hull in the water. Toss the drogue off the bow. With it clipped to the forestay bridle, it should quickly spin the boat into the wind and provide some brakes to the boat's progress through the water (though I'm not sure if it would be enough to allow someone to swim back to the boat).

Right the boat as normal but now when the boat comes up, the chute will hopefully keep the boat bow to the wind. Once you've got everything sorted out, you just grab the chute line at the front beam and pull it until the chute is lifted out of the water at the carabiner - you can probably leave it there while sailing.


This would possibly help if you are A) having trouble getting the boat positinged into the wind for righting or B) had someone get separated from the boat or C) are afraid the boat will take off without you when it's righted (I've been there too and it ain't fun).

I think Bill Roberts suggestion involved a similar system but for the bigger boats that are hard to right and once the chute was deployed, you would center the mainsheet traveler and sheet the main in hard - the main would provide more help in righting the boat immediately. The drogue would hopefully keep the boat positioned into the wind and keep it from flip flopping to capsize again.

I use the outside the hull grab the trap line method. At 285 with a bad shoulder I needed to find a better way than the front cross bar. I have my crew go onto the hull as the boat comes up then slide under the windward hull. Keeping the righting line in hand. Grab the trap handle , feet to the rear cross bar, a short pull and im back aboard. The advantage is if the boat begins to power up I'l close enough to the tiller to turn it back into the wind.

Why do most of the crazy T500 stories begin with "one time, when I was sailing with Todd..." ??

Do I sense a pattern?

just keep in mind that the drogue chute does not work with strong currents. I capsized in the RTI a few years ago in Destin Pass and my drogue chute went to the rear of the boat. Our spinnaker was caught in our rigging and we went turtle eventually snapping the mast as we were being pulled back under the bridge.

Using the pole as a ladder is a great idea.
It might even sell better as a "cat ladder" that also helps right the boat.
I don´t think the steps need to be retractable, just insert short tubes of smaller diameter at intervals and glue in place.

A drogue is the only solution in deep waters, but I would rather use an anchor. Buy an aluminum or titanium one. They are remarkably efficient.

I think/hope it's just an odds thing ,I've sailed with alot of folks. Of course I've broken alot of stuff too.

More bad Catamaran news

http://cbs5.com/local/catamaran.capsized.rescue.2.1076088.html

Hope they're OK.



J

I'm missing the why were they rescued?

I think I know that boat. I will try to get in touch with the owner.

Skipper and crew are fine. Flipped in 20 knots of wind and the skipper got separated. He had his radio on him and hailed for assistance. Coast Guard responded picked him out of the water. His crew was also pulled out. Boat was recovered shortly afterward. Boat Crew and Skipper all fine.

The dimensions of the pic and video were skewed so the boat looked wider than it is. Turns out to be a good friend.

J

the story/video were certainly lacking in details.

As Jeremy said, "not good for business"

But to put it in perspective... how many cat sailors need life saving assistance anually... compared to lets say.. motorcyclists or bicyclist? or scooter(ist).

To bad the "NEWS" doesn't relay that in general.. Sailing is MUCH safer than.. say.. driving to the beach.

Getting separated from the boat is a big deal.... its why everyone should hit the pool and do a couple laps from time to time.

During our only capsize in the T500, Bailey got separated from the boat... luckily he's strong as an ox and was able to swim fast enough and grab a batten string (yeah, I'm not kidding) to get back to the boat before I pulled myself on the hull to throw him my safety line.

I think we all need to decide what "survival conditions" are. For me, 20 knots qualifies.

Depends on the boat. On the 5.2 solo, 20 knotsis definitely survival conditions. The Stealth is manageable up to 25. Up to 30 is survivable, enough to get back ashore. More than 30 are survival conditions: turtle the boat, wait for the gale to pass...

i sail in 20-25. it is hairy but i wouldn't call it survival mode (until something goes wrong)

That sailor is a very accomplished sailor and regularly sails in 25 on sf bay. He just had a bad day.

Getting separated from your boat doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the conditions.

Or your experience...

Guess they were sailing by themselves?

Otherwise, someone would have pulled up and offered assistance, no?

He was the only beach cat yes, but there were more boats that were in the area, Just no one on radio or saw it happen.

He was one of only a handful of sailboats on the bay. Sailing with 1 crew in 18-25, pitched, and got separated from the boat. Tried to catch it, couldn't. Called coasties on VHF 16 from his handheld VHF that he had stowed in his PFD. Took a little ride in the coastie chopper and asked to be dropped off at his boat so that he could right it and sail it home. It was against the coastie regs, so he was taken to port.

Crew was rescued by local harbor patrol. Skipper hitched a ride back out to the boat, righted it, and sailed in.

J