2011 Tybee 500

Alright, 'tis the season. Who is going to race in Tybee this year?
4 Team Velocity Sailing boats will be registering this week. That brings the entries up to 7. Rumor has it that a boat whore in FL with a shaved head will be signing up before too long as well (f18). Will the Sonnenklar empire post a 3rd boat?

Who is interested in doing the race? How can we help make it a reality for you?

Considering, trying. Haven't gotten approval on the family front, and work is going to be real crazy about that time this year. Still, for now there is hope...

Please note an appeal from the Tybee 500 administration at www.Tybee500.com - thanks.

If anyone wants a fat boy crew to do the race I could fly in. But at 6'1" 240 lbs I'd need to be paired up with a small skipper.

I'd love to crew also, (I can drive equally as well). Lots of offshore experience (Ruff riders about a dozen times, Great Texas 300- 5 times, TX two step, etc.), lots of F18, I20 experience also. I'm at 155#'s, am in great shape (currently a msters swimmer), and have $$. Send me a PM if intersted.

Jebeesus, are you married?

;^)

I'm also available to crew or skipper, took 7th last year as skipper of N20 USA 1001. Have $$ and a top notch ground crew lined up, just need a boat.

So, what's the latest? Is this race going to happen with 7 boats? What's Chuck's deadline for his decision? I'm suprised to not see more F18's doing this race besides one, especially after the comment at the 09 awards about the race going to F18.

Lee,

Unfortunately, the race doesn't look like it'll have enough entries this year to go forward. I've heard that the magic number is 12 entries to make it happen, and I just don't see that happening without a bunch of F18's and some regulars signing up.

So, no interest from Mr. Heemskirk or JC this year? I really hate the thought of this race not happening, regardless if I come to do it or not.

If someone's got a boat to charter I've got money, sailing crew and ground crew ready to go.

See Chip and Barb Short email is barb at the-helm dot com
Rick

Race canceled for this year.

sorry to hear.
i truly enjoyed the coverage, sportsmanship, and endurance of all involved.
hopefully it will be back next year.

Is there a link to the official announcement?

www.tybee500.com

To the Tybee 500 Fleet, its staff and supporters:

Judi and I would like to extend our gratitude and respect to everyone for the years of dedication and effort. On behalf of the entire Tybee 500 administrative team, THANK-YOU ALL!

The last couple of years have been a challenge as tough economic times have required us all to tighten our belts and choose carefully where our hard earned money and vacation time is spent. With that reality in mind, I have made the decision to postpone the Tybee 500 until May 2012. I will be contacting the checkpoints to inform them of this announcement.

The race organizers and sponsors will plan again to set a start line for the Tybee 500 to push off the beach in South Florida and challenge the elements on a journey North to the finish line on Tybee Island, GA. This hiatus will allow the Tybee Sailing Association and sailing teams time to consolidate resources and personnel, and for us to consider other fleets that may wish to participate.

For those teams that did post their pre-registration, this announcement is being made early enough so that any plans and bookings can be changed as to avoid any loss of reservations payments and to make plans in other areas of interest for this year. I make this suggestion also for the teams that had planned for this year's race and other teams, to put the expenses they would have used this year aside, to save and add to it in preparation for 2012.

That's our plan!

We remain dedicated to you and this race along with the tradition of off-the-beach catamaran distance racing along the Atlantic Coast, and we hope you'll join us in 2012 for the next chapter in this adventure.

You are all welcome to contact us as you wish and we hope everyone will continue to visit our website (www.tybee500.com) for updates and plans for 2012 Tybee 500. The Tybee 500 website will be the only site where official news, information and announcements will be posted first as we plan for 2012.

Best Regards and fly a hull!

Chuck & Judi Bargeron
Team Tybee Island Sailing Association

Thanks David. Looks like Chuck posted it early today. I guess word travels faster in the forums.

Is there any interest in a substitute distance race. Tybee dates conflicted with a critical business commitment for me, but I would like to compete in a multi-day race week of 5/9 or 5/23 if possible. Any ideas?

Really sad. Seriously, lets not allow this to be the death of Tybee. Next year I hope to see 20+ boats signed up again.

Hey Pete,

its not multi-day, but theres the Mug race in early May that will give you a taste of distance racing. Its a pretty awesome race from what I'm told.

And the Reef Run (single or multi day, I think), Miami to Key largo (single day) and if you wnat to come to the Outer Banks of NC ,The Duck Cup(2 day) .
Here's a few more, scroll down to distance races.
http://www.catsailor.com/cs_schedules.html

And, there is the GT 300, 4 days of sailing up the TX coast.

Awesome time.

www.gt300.com

Here's an outside-the-box idea (which I am sure has been considered at some level):

Maybe this race needs to be held bi-annually? Other major events (Volvo, AC, Olympics) with high logistical and financial costs are not held annually, and have no problem remaining as the pinnacle events of the sport.

Just an idea...

Mike

Mike

I have thought much the same... BUT
I have been looking for any kind of event that draws on substantial volunteer effort that run every other year or even every three years... I can't find any!.... It seems that the volunteer crew can not hold together with the layoff or recruit enough experienced people to rebuild the team that puts the event on.

The events that you describe are commercial with lots of paid staff to solve this problem.

I am looking for a good role model here ... because I agree with Mike that a race like the Tybee or the Worrel or even something bigger makes sense in the US every other year etc.

Now there IS another view (Clean) that huge promotion will draw competitors and sponsors.... I don't see the world working that way but... I would love to be wrong.

Somebody needs to get Colbert on a catamaran to do the Tybee.

The biggest issue this year seemed to be available boats. There were teams both local and international--two from St Thomas alone--that were interested in coming but there just weren't enough boats to be sailed.

Well all boats are for sale at some price...

It sounds like there were no cheap boat solution from the point of view of people who want a charter... or worth while charters from the point of view of people with boats who could charter.

What do you think will change by 2012?

The world will be ending so people won't care as much about their boats. Duh. Keep up.

That not until December.

1) I think Tybee can be sustained on a year-year basis IF properly advertised. IMO this is the weakest link on the race organizers part, publicity seemed pretty much non-existent last year. Without publicity, people don't know about the race, the sponsors have no reason to advertise and it becomes a non-event.

2) A race like the Worrell cannot be maintained on a year to year basis and frankly becomes difficult to sustain financially without a major title sponsor (say Puma, Volvo, BMW etc). Its simply too draining financially on the teams and too big of a time commitment to happen every year. I could see every other year, maybe alternating with Tybee if that race is deemed unsuitable for year-year racing.

3) The volunteer issue is a major one, which is one of the reasons a big name sponsor is needed for a Worrell type event. If Chuck can bring his crew back next year, which I suspect he will, there will be proof that a bi-annual volunteer run event can happen.

4) Boats for charter seem non-existent, or nearly so. I think the best bet is to bring a manufacturer on board, they can charter the boats for the week and sell afterwards (similar to Alter Cup). I'm not sure if this is financially viable or not, but it is a proving grounds for the robustness of the platform so there is some benefit from an R&D standpoint.

One of the other issues is the N20 class is dieing, and many have jumped to the F18 fleet which is growing yet there is a lack of interest in distance racing the 18's vs. the 20 footers. The next boat I see myself buying is likely an F16 as I am moving to an area with a large fleet (14). In order to do Tybee/Worrell type events, I would either hit the lottery so I can buy 2 boats, do a boat swap before the event, and/or simply buy a 20 footer and crew on the smaller boats.

Mike Worrell did nothing but extensive and exhaustive advertising and while participation wasn't the ultimate downfall of the event, it was always a struggle. While I agree that the Tybee 500 organizers haven't found a way to put a significant effort into the advertising of the event, Sailing Anarchy did cover it one year hitting what should have been a premier audience for the race (though, I wasn't a fan of the coverage provided, personally). I don't believe the next year netted any increase in participation as a result.

Charter boats would be important for a few US sailors and several international teams and would probably bring at least 5 more teams into the event.

TeamSeacats, regretfully, were planning to sit this year out anyway. Our time on the water is limited together with tons of job-work and little vacation...and we wanted to spend some effort this year getting into a new class (F18), some training, and working on our performance a little. Besides, I've always had a gut feeling that the Tybee would have better attendance in a bi-annual presentation - I hope I'm right! It's a great race and, in the famous action star catch phrase of the Schwartz, "we'll be back".

If we take an objective look back at the history of the event, we see a couple of things that might enhance it's future:

A) RV's used to be the rage to do the race and save money. Now, they are a pain in the butt because there's no provisions made for them and you end up a mile or better away from the checkpoint. I don't know how, but it would be great if there was a way to support RV's for the race.

B) Velocity Sailing effectively made themselves a sub-contractor of the Tybee 500 by providing economical savings for the large number of teams they signed up under their umbrella - and they signed up a bunch! They leveraged their size to save people cash. IMHO, the race could take away a lesson from this example by providing some cost saving measures; a small extra fee entitles your team to nightly tin-pan catered dinners from local restaurants...maybe a big race trailer that teams can stow luggage and gear...perhaps some additional team building help on their website (ground crew, sharing rooms, etc.).

These are thoughts....not criticisms.

Hey Jake,
Time to change your sig line.

Many races run bi-annually and I don't think it is any detriment to the organization or momentum of the event. Pac Cup and Trans Pac run alternating years. The Van Isle 360 runs every other year, and is hugely popular and has sold out almost every year. And the Newport Bermuda race and Annapolis Bermuda race run alternating years (maybe different now than when I raced it) but there is also the Bermuda 1-2 which I believe runs Bi-annually.

The Tybee seems like a really cool event that could gather a lot of exposure. A year off is no big deal, with the right promotion during the year off if could come back bigger than ever. Definitely need a supportive title sponsor, which is probably the hardest thing to find (it was for the Van Isle).

Anyway, just my take on it from the other side of the country.

You raised some good examples...Note the differences though..
the Bermuda races are run by two of the biggest Yacht Clubs in the country. They have several paid staff and infrastructure to make these events happen. So, while these might not be commercial events... I would say their race management and conduct is professional. These are not examples of dedicated volunteers running an event on a two year cycle... year after year.

I believe the major cat distance races (Tybee, Worrel, Hogsbreath/Reefrunner? and the Great Texas race are labors of love by no more then a handful of volunteers.

I think your point about the Van Isle

The sponsorship pays for the people who make the event happen and these people can sustain the drive over a two year cycle.

Its a tough road... even if the AC activity stirs up a buzz... You still need a plan for the sponsor. I wonder if the AC cup organization could get talked into supporting distance cat racing.... hmmm

Jake,

You've got very good points, as well as hard-won experience in this event, but isn't the purpose of selling a 'host hotel/checkpoint' to get room-nights for the hotel? Having a slew of RVs in their parking lot probably doesn't improve their gross margin.

I agree with your suggestions about a logistics package.. Such a great race, even to watch...

" Definitely need a supportive title sponsor, which is probably the hardest thing to find (it was for the Van Isle)."

Group,

Being new, I may be off base, but why would we want to attempt a sponsor for the whole race as opposed to legs. In golf tournaments, businesses sponsor a hole. So if a national and or local company were to sponsor a leg, would this not be more palatable? Of course as previously stated, a large corporation wanted to step up, you wouldn't turn it down. I wonder why a major boat manufacturer wouldn't jump at the chance to line their new boats up on the beach for rides and instruction. From what I understand, when you go to bike week, the bike manufacturers have lines of bikes for you to take for test rides. How can we build interest if all the novice sees are 10-20 thousand dollar boats coming ashore and leaving again. Shouldn't there be a product in a smaller cheaper size for the public to purchase to create interest. I mean truthfully, of all the cat sailors out there, how many are day/weekend sailors and how many are racers?
Thanks for your time, just my 2 cents.

Forrest I-20

Hey Forrest,

I love your idea. We had a similar idea back in 2009. We approached a manufacturer and asked them if they wanted our huge ground crew to demo their boats at the checkpoints during the legs. Unfortunately, things like insurance and such things got in the way of that. With the interest that the race gathers on the beach - it presents a great opportunity for a recreational boat to be showcased. Local businesses at the checkpoint are great opportunities to approach for leg sponsorships.

Even if the manufacturer doesn't want to bring boats, I wonder if a dealer would be willing to bring some of the smaller ones for demo and sale. Give a nice discount at the finish line if not sold by then. I would think that if he could sell 2-3 boats in the hand full of stops, it might be worth his time. As to insurance, I would think that his policy would cover the exposure of the demos and if not, one of the members here dealing in insurance,(Jay) might be able to sell a policy to cover the limited event. Going back to the local sponsorers, if their names were on banners at the race site, and crews and ground people were steered to them for business, this would create good will for the local folks.

Forrest I-20

The problem with demoing boats is the surf. Your not going to sell rec boats when your dealing with X games water.

Title sponsors are good and all, but there's one big question still - where are the racers? This year's race was organized and ready to go as far as I can tell, but there weren't the folks signed up. Were they not signed up due to not having a title sponsor? I don't think so.

As strong as this race has been, I think if you look at the past couple of years of entrants, you'll find a core of mostly the same people. Velocity has done the most to bring in some new blood (if not for their efforts, things would be worse IMO). But where is the rest of the new crop of distance racing junkies coming from?

If an event or club relies on the same core year after year, eventually it will fall apart because some or most of those people eventually drift away for whatever reason. If there isn't an influx of new blood then you're left short-handed when the tried and true move their efforts around.

Most sailors I know have enough respect for the Tybee type races to not think they can just jump in and do it. They know they need to have the chops and their boat will need work. I look at our situation here on the Chesapeake - once Doug and Andy (and others) moved on, there are few if any that are looking to go that route. You can't badger those folks to come back, they will if they want to, but you can't bank on it. Alec and I cut our teeth and got our confidence doing the distance races on the Bay, races that have gone away themselves, leaving a reduced chance of getting people involved in this kind of racing. As people gravitate to A-Cats, F-16s, and F-18s more emphasis is on buoy racing. So how do we convince folks they can step up?

There are pros that obviously populate races like the Tybee, but then again, depending on what they have going their commitments and programs may take them away from it on any given year.

And there lies another question - does the soul of the future of the race look more like a professional sailor's venue, or one that is still open to the crazies who have enough vacation time? Can you successfully cater to both? Should you?

There was mention that there were foreign teams looking to charter boats. I only heard about this after it was too late. Not sure if I would have chartered my boat (hey, you never know), but it makes me think there isn't a good network to match up boats and sailors. There's one suggestion for the T500 organizers - a crew/team/charter board on the T500 site itself to help facilitate match making. This and other sites are helpful, but again the feature needs to be part of the T500 site, front and center.

Anyway, maybe more questions than answers, but I've always been a believer in achieving critical mass - that way when people go off to other endeavors there are new ones coming in. Recruit, recruit, recruit. It's not always easy, but if you have enough people that want to play plus some, you can play even if some are away.

Keith,

You mention lack of sailors. This came up on the SA thread, I ran the numbers for the past three years, the F-18 class has doubled in size since 2009 while the N20 fleet has basically remained constant over that time. Right now I feel the N20 fleet is on the decline (lots of boats for sale). I think most of those sailors are buying other boats, likely F18's. The argument was made that the F18 boys don't want to run their boats up on the beach for a week. That may be the case but I think they either don't have the balls, or are financially committed to other events (World Champ's in Europe).

There are plenty of distance racing events in Florida to get warmed up for a Tybee, big issue is getting a boat down to the keys and back for a 2 day event makes little sense for most.

I am very sad to see the catamaran distance racing scene on the Chesapeake die, especially as I am moving back into the area and would love to do some of my favorite races on a fast beach cat (Governor's Cup, Down the Bay). After selling the N20 I was planning on buying a F18 within the year. With the move to the area and the lack of fleet, it makes much more sense to buy a F16. That leaves me with a dilemma-I would not hesitate to take an F16 out in any weather I have seen on the bay, and distance racing it wouldn't be an issue there, but its not a Tybee boat. I think a F16 could do a Tybee, if you brought enough spare parts to support yourself. I think the F18/N20/F20c are better boats for the race, especially if upwind in steep, short chop is experienced.

Sam,
I perhaps overstate the distance racing on the Bay as dead, but there is no more Down the Bay or Chesapeake 100. There is no more Icebreaker or Lighthouse races, the old CRAC begin and end of season mini-distance races. They have been replaced by the Spring and Pumpkin Patch regattas at WRSC, which are proper buoy racing affairs. The main distance event now is the NASS Annapolis to Oxford/Hammond Memorial, which is great, but it's kind of the only thing.

The distance racing in Florida is great, but you're right, the trip makes it hard - more distance racing up north is needed.

I think it would be interesting to see some newer F-18s on the Bay. In the past they haven't been popular, our guess has been the combo of light air and smaller sail area for the reason - but I figure the newer boats make up for that.

We've had a couple of 20s sell out of our area, so our numbers are dwindling a bit here.

The F-16 is great, and does well distance racing here (such as it is). The biggest thing is whether you want to spend a lot time on a boat by yourself. Going 2-up would be ok, but not at the average 20 sailor's mass.

I've seen a good number of days on the Bay where I'm perfectly happy being on shore...

My guess on the F-18 in the bay thing, is that the F-18 class does alot of traveling and Bay cat sailors (in general)don't. Mast up at West river makes it easy to not want to pack your boat up and go somewhere else.Not that I have that luxury.
F-18s seem to have almost as much power as the 20s now, so I think they would be a decent fit in the bay.

And to clarify,there is a big boat down the bay that cats are trying to get in to.That's probably the one Sam is referring to.
The Cat only Down the bay (The race that got me hooked on distance)is gone.That was a damn fine way to spend a Memorial day weekend.

Just to keep the focus on the essential problem.

The Chesapeake Distance races are gone because the sailors are gone... similar to the Tybee.

We killed off the Chesapeake events one by one as times changed and just in time so that we did not destroy the volunteers and bank account.

I set up the new Down the Bay (Non stop to Va Beach) with the organizers and we got to the Who's in.... we need 5... before we go further. Who will take the lead?

Answer.... Silence.

The core group... the rank and file adventure racer ranks are really small now. Perhaps these core guys should get together and organize a schedule of existing and potential events for a couple year period so that a variety of events survive up and down the east coast.

The Worrell was originally on Hobie 16’s nonstop and going the wrong way.

The Tybee for all intensive purposes is the carryon of that race in name. It gradually morphed from H16 to the 20 (with various iterations along the way) and now is dead – at least for a year.

Did the boat kill the race? Or did we as a sport get lazy and old, or is it the current economy? I am definitely not looking at this forum for an objective view here.

I did the inaugural version of the Tybee because I wanted to do it for the thrill of the race. We were asked by Chuck to run it this year on the F16 and if family, work and money were not all obstacles we would have tried to put together a team. It is not about the boat, for me anyway it is about doing the EVENT. It would be several orders of magnitude easier run on a 20 over a 16, but where’s the challenge come in?

These events are cult adventure races. You see documentaries about people climbing Everest because of the challenge, you do not see documentaries of people walking/hiking the foothills.

+1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dUfuxWOY9c

It seems adventure is like ice cream, it comes in many different flavors.

I've been intrigued by the Everglades Challenge for some time. The top finishers complete it in 48 hours or so, the last finisher takes a week. They all pay about $350!

Maybe we need to broaden our outlook? Perhaps Tybee could be run in phases for those who only wish to do one stage at a time? Should there be a Tybee Ultra? A non stop event for the truly hard core?

Can you put three guys on a N-20, with enough provisions to sail 500 miles non stop? It would be grueling but probably cheaper.

How about a "replenishment" race? The entered boat doesn't stop but can take on/drop off crew and supplies. I'm never going to do the Tybee but would be very happy to sail a crew member with supplies to a boat offshore.

Ur all saying that the interest is down? Everyone going to F18's and not wanting to because of that? If interest in distance racing is down, then why did the GT300 fill up so fast BEFORE the Tybee made any announcement of needing 12 or more teams? I seriously hope it comes back next year because I wasn't done doing it.
Management maybe to blame? Anyone remember the sour grapes about a few teams cutting the corner on Canaveral in 09? A penalty was imposed but to be honest with you, those at fault didn't complete the course. You fail to complete the course in any other race, and you're DSQ'd. I seem to remember a team in 05 maybe that got outside assistance in a capsize almost to the finish in Tybee and they got DSQ'd from the whole freekin race!
Jupiter beach in 07, Team Tybee flipped over back on the beach and Chuck ran down the beach blowing his whistle and waving his arms. A few teams stopped their attempt and asked Chuck if he was calling it. He wasn't the PRO, Sean Farrel was. Although Chuck had a pony in the race, he was/is still looked at as the final say in everything Tybee 500. This may make things a little grey when they need to be black and white. I'm not knocking Chuck. I'm grateful he put on a race that is close to my heart.

In the past the folks that would have been interested in the F18s saw them as underpowered for the Bay. I think that has changed with the new boats, but most people seem enamored with the F16 around here. But the emphasis does seem to be more buoy than distance, and I don't think adding the F18 to the Bay would change it much. It's something I consider from time to time.

The last I heard on the big boat down the bay race was that somehow the cats ran afoul of the organizers. Not sure where it really stands.

The F16 guys do a bit of travel. But I think we're at the point with the West River scene where we need some new blood as well.

Didn't know the Down the Bay thing was still on the table, thought that one died in a squabble.

I think the core guys should get together and try to figure to get new blood in. Having the core save races will only last so long, IMO. We're seeing that now.

I've wanted to do GT (work in the way this year), but honestly couldn't do both that and Tybee in the same year unless I was divorced and unemployed. I haven't looked at the entry list for GT to see how many Tybee faithful are going there but didn't sign up for Tybee. GTs star does seem to be rising. But there just maybe aren't enough that would/could do both, so one will suffer unless the numbers of sailors are there. So I still think interest is down.

I'm with you on the '07 and '09 thing, especially in '09 when making the first buoy around Canaveral up front (one shining moment). And after hearing the spiel about spending the night in jail if you went inside the zone, it seemed a little odd the way it panned out. But those things won't keep me from doing it again.

Niether of those instances would keep me from coming back either.

Hang on there, don't despair! The WRSC F16 fleet flushed out several "inactive" racers last year and have more coming back this year. Aric, Lee (before blowing out her knee), Tyler last year. Jeff this year. Also we have Mike C., a new F16 racer starting the season with us. There is additional interest but we need to find them used F16s and convince them to crew on N20s in the meantime. BTW, it was the F16 that got me back into racing in 2007 and I flipped my ride mid-2009 to bring in new blood.

Frankly, WRSC beachcat members are working the younger generation agenda to introduce kids to catamarans but we do not have an kid's pocket book price fleet. If you ask me, we would do better to do more racing in proximity to the big boats were everyone is crew except for the rich guy that can afford the expensive big boat. You know the experience just from Annapolis-Oxford race.

One day, I would like to see a beachcat course at Annapolis Race Week using Sandy Point as the beachcat race site with West River beachcat open house information at the party site in Annapolis Harbor. I'm sure the ARW video boat will collect a good amount of beachcat footage for the party because it is exciting to watch and different. Then we should have the open house the following weekend (video, food, drinks and music) and get them out on the wire. The weekend following the open house weekend is the 33nm Annapolis-Oxford distance race were the beachcat fleet starts last and sails past 99% of the big boats (damn that 72 ft Donnybrook). All of the big boat crew that went to our open house or spoke to us at ARW will infect the other big boat crew members as we race past, out on the wire, hull lifting, and big grins our faces. It is the perfect recruitment strategy for the West River beachcats.

Otherwise, we need to speed up the beachcat procreation strategy .

The F18s have not made a dent in the Annapolis area because the N20 fleet has been so strong and was entrenched before the F18 was introduced. It is a function of wanting to race what everyone else is racing and the N20 has been THE West River/Annapolis area 2-up, line honors boat to race.

We're talking present tense. How many active n-20s are left at WRSC? For the bigger guys ,the f-16 isn't an option, the F-18 would be. I hate seeing the N-20 fleet dwindle there because that was pretty much my home fleet(along way from home, but home).

Tigers and Inter-18s would show up for CRAC races out of West River and other venues, and usually the comments were the same from folks - wanted/needed more horsepower for the light days. It was one of the reasons the N-20s continued to catch on instead. This was a while ago. I think the modern boats would have a chance. But most people in Annapolis are looking to the F-16, one reason is you don't need to mess with crew unless you want to.

Not despairing yet - just noticing boats being sold out of the area when before we had people in open boats ready to snap up some of those newer boats when they became available.

The kid's (or anybody's) pocket book fleet can be any cheapo boat kept at Church St. and brought out for Tuesdays (and of course whenever else they want to sail or race), which we should help promote. I know it would seem wrong for the WRSC to promote outside of the club, but they'd get to race against club members and might move in when a boat opens up as their experience goes up as well.

But more to the thread, how do we get the remaining N-20 and F-16 guys to go and do things like Tybee? I've got one or two ideas, maybe we'll see what the interest is...

Keith..

They F18 sailors will turn to distance racing when they get bored with turning left all the time.

However...It might be a small number of sailors who want to break the pattern and race from A to B.

Back in the day... the Hobie 16 and 18 sailors were the core group for all of the distance races.... They did both. Now a days... they have a very strong fleet and no ... zero interest in distance races. (understandably, they don't want to finish 2 to 3 hours behind the spin 20's and that is probably a strong negative unless they could get a fleet of like minded H16 sailors together.)

Perhaps, the strong one design buoy racing scene keeps them interested in buoys sailing and they don't have the itch to go some place on their boat. Those Hobie sailors with the itch to sail from A to B have moved on.

Another possibility ... when CRAC was successfully running distance races... our buoy races were all on portsmouth and we had a real range of boats.... We had 20 years of no strong one design racing to speak of... Distance racing on portsmouth was much more fun then portsmouth buoy racing.

Since the beach cat world has consolidated into a handful of fleets you have to look for distance racers in those ranks.
Bottom line, the group of sailors with the itch to go from A to B is small in any of our current OD fleets.

Your point that we don't have many opportunities to get experience in distance races may be true but not that important.. We still don't have new sailors taking on a 40 mile race with 200 other boats... We just get our 5 to 10 boats... same guys... no new faces.

So, I think that until the F18 and F16 sailors get bored with turning left week in and week out the numbers will be small. Putting a 1000 mile race on the schedule might get the old guard back out for their last extreme race... but probably not the average weekend warrior.

Finally, the more single handed the fleet becomes... the less likely that a distance race will be popular. I am not likely to run a 40 mile race on my A cat.... turns out the big boats need lots of crew and I want to do Annapolis to Bermuda one day!

My suggestion then.... Just keep asking the F18 and F16 sailors... are you bored with turning left yet?

I would have loved to have done the Tybee at some point, but here are my reasons I have not (listing as I'm sure others have similar reasons), in no particular order:

- Cost. My boat coast 20k, I'm not going to destroy it launching on and off a beach until I have more money, just don't have that right now. Other costs, being there, not being at work, lodgings, etc, just can't do it.

- I'm not bored of "turning left". In fact, I doubt I ever will, as I get to do lots of hoists, douses, starts, roundings, etc per race. And lots of races. I've done tonnes of distance racing in bigger boats (from 300 miles to atlantic crossing) and yes, they are fun, but a different bag of tricks. If you are hooked on starts / roundings / lots of manouvers in tight quarters, distance racing doesn't have the draw you would think it does.

- Time: Similar to costs, my boat does 10+ events in about a very limited season (I'm a northerner, waaaay north). To dedicate the week to a long distance event would mean dropping other events. With the NAs being close to me this year, I need every one of those small weekend events just to be able to hang with the "big guns".

I can see myself doing a distance race, possibly in a year where I'm not going to do the NAs or similar, and I hope tybee comes back, or similar events crop up.

My suggestion (as someone who knows nothing about the event as I've never done it):
- Have "team packages" like team velocitek. I.e I pay x dollars and get all the land support, logistics, etc taken care of. X dollars should be a fair price that is helped out by sponsorship
- Perhaps shorter versions of the race for people who can't commit to the entire time off (I'm guessing this is a big reason for drop off as the F18 fleet gets more competitive, teams have more events to go to with the same amount of vaca time).
- Fleets should help sponsor this (manufacturers, etc). I live in a city where we are THE racing cat (not the best, the only ;-). After all the SA coverage of Tybee two years ago I had three keel boaters offer to be my land support if we planned on racing Tybee. They had never heard of F18 sailing or anything, they just were so enthralled by the idea of the Tybee. I think events like this have a large part to play in promoting multi sailing.

Just my 2 cents, and personally I can't wait to do a distance race, just not sure when. Maybe I can convince the local "big boat" fleet to let me join there 30 + mile day races.

Cheers,
-P

We aren't bored with turning left, and we still have a strong F18 fleet doing the GT300. There are already 9 F18s signed up and there will be a few more. Come on down and race!

I just made my hotel reservations for all of the stops and the total bill was $746.54 for our team plus ground crew.

Also, there may be some local boats available for charter.

Good points.

Well, following my critical mass line, you don't need all buoy racers to turn distance racers, you just need enough. So the small number (from a variety of locations) may be all that is needed.

Times have changed I guess - we used to relish hunting down the spin boats on our H-20s and N-6.0s when the conditions changed. But it was always two classes, spin and non, and I don't think it bothered us if the spin boats went out on the horizon - they should have!

I know it took awhile for me to gear up to be able to do just the local distance racing. It may take a bit to get somebody over the hump and into their first taste of it. This may be part of why Oxford doesn't get the turn out you'd like. But it's pretty much the only race on the Bay now, so if you have a sched conflict or something, that's it for around here. But I'll go on the record and I say I enjoy that race. And the glances you get are not always friendly...

Amazing how much action there is on this forum after the race is canceled Everyone loves a train wreck.

We should take another page from the Euros: Mix the two together. The Eurocat has a distance race that all the bouy guys participate in.
Texel has the Dutch Open during the week before the Ronde Texel.
The CataCup is all distance races of different types with an upwind turning mark and is wildly successful.
There are plenty of distance races in the EU that are one day events that are very popular. The Raid was canceled too.

I think it would be nice to see a day of distance racing during the middle day of F18 nationals. One race to count twice or two races with a lunch between.

I'm not exactly sure why more cats don't distance race. We cover such an unbelievable amount of miles a day! When I first started racing I did the 45x45 in Cocoa. We flipped and I was tired as hell. I said to Noodle, "I think I'll just stick to buoy racing." That worked out real well.

But for me sailing is sailing, and distance racing helps with raw speed, navigation, the larger weather picture, strategy, preparation and logistics. It is a whole different skillset than buoys. When I was on the Tybee Isl. Sail Team I offered my assistance to the organization to travel and do a presentation on the race, logistics, costs, how to get through the surf...everything. They didn't go for it. I thought a grassroots effort would help, but who knows.

Overall, I think that races are popular because of prestige, marketing and organization. You all know that includes an investment of a lot of time and money. You get what you pay for I guess.

Perhaps this was mentioned before ... and it's just a thought. What if the Tybee had two or three legs that were open to people that just wanted to compete in one or two legs...might help them get their feet wet about the event and build interest.

Would there be any interest from the sailing community?

I think you have to have the same type of safety requirements and maybe even a boat inspection (with some legalese that a boat inspection does not mean the Race Committee has assumed responsibility for the seaworthiness of the craft) but my inclination would be to relax the boat requirements for the leg somewhat (i.e., entertain the idea of non-spin boats).

For me, I was buoy racing and not having much success. After some success at distance racing (my off the wind speed was much better than my knowledge of weather or the finer heading points of sailing). I started distance racing and wow, what a thrill!

Right now, I'm starting to have more success around the cans and with my life becoming every-the-more-busy, I'm enjoying the slightly reduced amount of preparation required for can racing. I do have a desire to distance race and will certainly continue to do so, however.

Don't the euro "chaps" have a different work/sail schedule? We 'mericans are too greedy (or in debt) to stop working to enjoy the thrill of sailing, much less racing.

I'm personally split almost equally between the two disciplines. I enjoy bouys for the close boat-boat interaction, short range strategy, and if I screw up somewhere, I get a fresh start in about an hour. If things went sideways, it was easier to pull the boat out.

Distance racing, as you so eloquently put FoN, is an entirely different animal. The boats (and sometimes crew) are the only common denominator. Navigation, logistics, gear, training, and mental fortitude are skill sets that need a lot of development to go distance well. I don't think you'd ever face 5+ hours trapped out holding a spin sheet on one tack in huge seas in any weekend regatta..

I used to think I got beat up more in distance stuff, but today that's not always the case because teams go around the cans much more aggressively.

As far as costs go, would attending a 5 day regatta cost less than a 5 day distance race? Maybe a little cheaper since you wouldn't need as much ground crew or fuel at a buoy regatta...?

Those that do extensive campaigns in either (or both) disciplines could provide more on that note...

Nobody said racing was cheap...or easy.

While I drivel on about my personal opinions, I prefer three FL distance races (Hirams, MKL, Mug) more than the rest, primarily for these reasons (in order):
- there was a huge diversity of boats (multi and mono) which gave you lots to look at (and sail around)
- races could be completed in a day, usually with some free time afterwards to catch up with the other teams
- the navigation was relatively straightforward, but the strategy can be as complicated as you want

RTI pensacola, Everglades Challenge, and others like them have very similar appeal, with the exception that they demand more endurance because the distances are significantly greater.

For a starter race, you can't beat the Steeplechase.., it has it all execpt the surf starting. And normally, you can almost walk to shore.
Rick

LMAO! yes, you really CAN walk to shore...dragging your boat with you! Thanks for changing the finish line by the way.

And yes, Steeple is probably my favorite multi-day distance race...

I think there are a lot of good suggestions in here. Opening up some of the shorter/more convenient Tybee legs to outside boats sounds very doable and can hopefully show more people the distance racing scene without them committing to the full 500 miles. Of course, there still need to be enough boats entered to make it financially viable to hold the race in the first place!

Logistics packages like those offered by Velocity are great and what enabled me to do the race last year. Without the teams support, we would not have been able to finish the race, since we blew up several major bits (boom, rudder blade, pintails) over the course of the week. I think this is where manufacturers need to jump in-for example, I don't see an F16 making it through the race without 2 or 3 other same make F16's with lots of spares also doing the race or say Falcon Marine running up the beach selling parts along the way.

Finally, I would be interested to know what the cost of doing a Worrell "new style" (stopping at hotels everyday) versus a more "original" three man team non-stop sailing. I see the non-stop as being slightly cheaper as you cut the hotel costs in half but I'm sure more boat damage occurs and it is certainly riskier-but more fun.

Of the F18 owners that have considered the race, is safety a primary reason for not doing the race? I haven't seen this issue brought up, as IMO the race is as safe as ocean racing can be.

Don't forget the Delta Ditch Run if your on the West Coast. Fun 67 miles down the delta.

>A1 Grand Prix (A1GP) was a 'single make' open-wheel auto racing series.
It was unique in its field in that competitors solely represented their nation
as opposed to themselves or a team, the usual format in most formula racing series. <

How about an sailing A1GP format?
A thousand mile race with a minimum of ten sailors per team/city or state,
where each team member sails a maximum of two days or each pair sails approximately 200 miles.
Ft. Walton vs Daytona vs Cocoa Beach vs Miami vs New Jersey vs Long Beach vs Pensacola vs Tampa vs Sidney

If we could find 10 sailors from each of enough countries to make this work, that would be a pretty cool concept. Of course, you'd be turning away sailors from the host country (presumably, more than 10 people would be interested in this).

Mike

Sam, if you're looking for F18 POV on the race, see Todd R.'s (wildtsail) post here: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=120034&st=0

Your question on safety seems kinda out of the blue, considering F18s have been participating for a couple of years now.

I've read the SA thread as well. His point is valid but I think the full 1000 mile race will only garner a lot of interest for 1 year and only if Tybee isn't run. It too expensive and time consuming to run year in and year out as proven by history. My opinion is it should be done non stop with a 3 man team, go big or go home.

My question on safety was directed at those F18 and other class sailors on the fence. I get the feeling that people are afraid to do this race from a safety of life standpoint, and a healthy respect of mother nature is warranted, but with modern technology (EPIRB's) my opinion is it is plenty safe. I also think people feel it is a monumental challenge-in many ways it is but with good logistical support and properly prepared boat, the Tybee 500 is really 6 days of buoy racing with the added risk of getting stranded due to breakage or stuck in a squall etc. Oh, and you might not make it to the bar by 5pm everyday, but you do get the chance to sail against some of the best sailors in the world...tradeoffs

I think that part of what you said intimidates would be T-500ers. That they'll be up against some of the best sailors around.

Some people get very discouraged bringing up the tail end of the fleet five or more days in a row. This reality has to be balanced with the excitement of completing a marquee adventure race.

I can honestly say that the thing that intimidated us about the race was not going up against some of the best sailors. Getting to sail side by side with Mischa and JC and the rest of the folks that ultimately horizoned us was part of the attraction.

The intimidation factor for us was the possibility of getting in over our heads in situations far from shore. Of keeping things together for long legs if things weren't going right. Of wondering if the boat was prepped right for those things. I'm not sure I'd characterize the race as 6 days of buoy racing. What comes to mind there is the saying about whether the race was or was not "just like the postcard". These are some of the things I sense when talking to newbie distance sailors.

When we started the idea of doing this race we set our goals thusly - First, finish the race. Second, don't be last. Third, learn whatever can be learned. Try and work for more, but better returns would be gravy. Our first try we didn't make the first goal, but oddly enough did manage the second.

Our second try we did all three, but, to be honest, that year was "like the postcard". We didn't have to do any 100 mile legs upwind in 20+ and big swells. Also, if that race had been held one week later that year the results would have been far different IMO. So that's my vote for what I think (or what should) intimidates folks. But it's also what makes you prep for safety and robustness while trying to figure out how to pace with (and become) the best.

I sincerely hope no one sits out for fear of losing. If that's the case then you should take up knitting and stay away from competitive racing of any sort.

+1000

+ a bunch

Pretty much my point, more concisely said!

Talk to Trey about bringing up the rear. 2005 and 2006 we were DFL.

Now, while I do my fair share of anchoring the fleet, Trey does a good job at beating it.

Point is, there's always room for improvement.

For sure! And that's my point, laid out in our goals. First is to finish. Can't win if you don't do that. If we don't meet the second goal (don't be last), that's OK, cause if you raced/finished and learned something, you're in a better spot for next time!

I was last place in my first Tybee. Our goal was to finish. We wiped out...crashed...broke...limped 60 miles...fixed...lost sight of land...sailed the fastest I've ever ever gone before...finished dead last by hours....partied like an animal.

Three years later...cool calm collective. Prepared. Focused on consistency. Finished 3rd.

Your first year, your goal should be to simply finish in one piece. It's really not that difficult of a race - but it takes a little while to understand how you need to prepare the boat and how to prepare your gear to be comfortable - how to keep lines from chafing, what rigging to replace, what spares to have, how to pack food/water and be comfortable / accessible etc. It took me until last year when I discovered (Frank's idea) that cutting down an old thick (too large for me) wetsuit leaving the thighs, butt, and belly/back made the trap harness INCREDIBLY more comfortable.

On your 3rd year, the legs don't feel as long anymore. You lose that "Christ! are we there yet!?" feeling. Your mindset becomes a little more relaxed and less worried about when the leg will end....because it will eventually end and there's no point in fretting about it. It becomes more about doing a job, passing the guy in front of you and keeping the guy behind you at bay. The job ends when you slide onto the sand at the next checkpoint and your ground crew awaits with a couple of cold beverages and a sandwich and you have a while to relive the day and tell stories with your competition.

I would love to do this race but can't race what I own. Not going to charter a boat I have no knowledge of. Not going to buy a boat for one or two races a year that require it. I could barely get the money together to campaign the boat I currently own, forget buying spare parts for a boat that I would have to charter. This race could be way bigger and better promoted for sure but limiting the entries to I-20's or F18's just isn't cutting it. I tried twice to enter, will not attempt it again.

What boat are you sailing that Tybee forbids? The GT has an open class and it works very well for the odball boats (figure of speech).

All of the sailors that you all feel are unbeatable, all started from the back of the pack and watched many sterns. My first race I was DEAD LAST! Two years later I lucked out and won the NAs, thanks to a lot of advice from seasoned sailors.
And that is what I have seen in cat sailing ever since I have been in it. Not so in Lasers and Motorcross.
Rick

Rick,

I believe the focus was on point to point racing up the east coast. You were there when Carlton and the Hobie 16 posse went non - stop to VA with support teams and three crewmembers - very limited 'resort' accomodations.

You were right on with the race track "buoy" racing concept that - one day it will all come together; and that is usually by surprise in some major event. RE: Taylor and Matthew.

Now, what can we do to present the history of east coast multihull sailing to the USSA for their sailing museum and historic collection?

I remember seeing your early books at the Whitehurst Hobie dealership. I admired the conciseness/clarity of content and formatting.

What are we prepared to do now in honor of Dick Blanchard and Darline Hobock? I am sure Matt can handle the HCA.

Kind Regards,
Bert