Charleston RW

I thought I read that the F18 class was going to Charleston RW this year? Were my glasses fogged?

A Hobie 16 makes for an epic show on the SA front page... Nice Move captain!

This is the first I've heard of it.

The only way that would work is if James Island YC hosted the F18s (I think there's another club on the opposite side that might have some water access)...there's not much water access to work from around there for a sizable fleet...and, well...that Harbor is not THAT big. I'm amazed they get as many boats in there as they do already. We've had serious commercial traffic concerns racing there with only two race courses in the past.

Only the Melges and Vuper fleets are in the harbor. The PHRF boats go out into the ocean.

From CRW, this has got to be the most painful gate rounding ever. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152105553584895

The torquedo maneuver at 2:20 is priceless...

If the RC let that race finish, I would not want to be defending Torquedo against RRS 44.1(b).

I would also not want to be the PRO defending a decision not to abandon. Of course we don't have the full story of the entire race or regatta, but that looks like a great day to NOT be the PRO...

Mike

Aaaaaaa Charleston. It's a great place to sail (if you are OK with the commercial traffic) but when it doesn't blow, it sucks, literally. Lots of current.

There was some discussion about trying to do CRW because it fit well with our boats return from Florida. We decided entry fee was too steep to pursue beyond initial discussions.

Big plus 1 on that! It's a venue where an anchor is a secret weapon.

+1. Also never found out if they can make space for us....

The current in that video certainly was impressive. The only thing faster than the boats with the private glory puffs and chutes up were the boats going backwards...

Mike

Thanks, I thought I remembered some discussion.

What value do you guys see in showing up at the mega multiclass events? My experience is that nobody cares about what other classes are on their race course or in the regatta... until they have an issue... and then the SOB is an axxhole and A class should not share the course with Lightings (my favorite dick fleet).

I would love to believe that participation at Charlston or Newport or in my world...Annapolis to Oxford would be worth the PIA but..

Is it just the off chance that somebodies crew wanders over and starts up a conversation based on the cool hat and T shirt you are sporting?

I want to believe that it is worth it.. but I really have no evidence that it helps or works.

I don't know how many people directly "convert" at the sight of our boats (maybe Jeff or Todd can speak to this for Newport), but if nothing else, it gets to showcase the boats, and helps in lots of other ways (venues for future major events, etc.).

There can be negative consequences to this much attention. There were a few situations at Buzzards a few years back that we can talk about over a beer sometime.

For the most part, these events are festivals where you can party with lots of folks from many, many classes. None of the circle groupings, all the way up to the big boats, is ideal.

But, you get to show up, pay your money, and someone else does all the work (OA, RC, PC and parties).

Mike

We sail in a few multiclass events- Madcatter, Wickford, Newport, Hyannis, and HPDO. Part of the reason is exposure to other fleets, especially jr. sailors and college sailors. Does it help bring sailors to our fleet? I think so. I personally want our fleet to be viewed as a high performance one-design fleet with critical mass in New England. I want sailors looking to step into a competitive one-design fleet to see us having close racing with solid numbers and know we are an option. I know when I was looking to buy a boat I looked at what fleets had good turnout at local events- I could care less how many hulls.

We also like multi-class events because we don't have to worry about the logistics- you show and and race. We also like the social scene with friends from other fleets.

Also, Newport and Hyannis are just awesome venues.

One think that's important is that you get put on a course with appropriate boats. We typically share courses with Vipers, 505s, 49ers, and VXones, and that is ok. At Hyannis we share with the J22s and that is also fine because we just sail around them. At BBR we shared a course with the A and B phrf boats and that was a nightmare, especially because of the starting order.

The PHRF trimarans were invited this year for the first time. I am presuming they participated on the "Pursuit Course" since only five boats actually showed to Start, and they only got in two races. Reminded me of our way of dealing with a "cruising" class on Pensacola Bay during a buoy - style event. I hope the boys enjoyed the show, but at least they planted a seed, larger multihulls usually inspire smaller multihulls. That has been the case in NOOD events.

The 49ers and N 17s in Miami were a bit surprised to find that there appeared to be limited shore support at the Rowing Club except for the coaches.

I can just imagine what fitting into CRW would be like for beach cats.

I would opine that beachcats and the like might "fit" better with a small sportboat regatta rather than a larger mono/multi event (like boats over 30').

Smaller sportboats are in a similar pricerange and you might find more potential converts (fewer crew requirements, higher performance, etc) than the big boat teams?

That's because you're not a catsailor...

Jeff, take us through your NE circuit, and list the events with the other classes on each circle, starting order, types of courses/number of laps vs. the other boats, pros/cons and any other details that might help us get an idea of what works well (and what doesn't).

Mike

CRW has M24s and J70s out the wazoo but I suppose you are talking about smaller sport boats like 49er, 29er, etc.?

I think it would be great to have an F18 fleet at CRW (and I have a free place to stay! ;-)) but I just don't know how they fit us in that bay without sending us up the river or off a beach (which would defeat the purpose to be so far away from everyone else).

I don't mind monohull crowding. I think it's still good to mix it up with them - otherwise, they don't notice we're there. There will be some tension at marks but, ehh, there's tension anyway. I think it would be interesting to use the Spring Fever style start line with separate start and finish lines below and above the course respectively. If you're careful with the starts, I think it could still work.

My favorite is while sailing on a mixed course, I was sailing my a-cat and approaching A-mark on the wire. An MC scow sailor was coming in at the mark wide (well overstood giving me plenty of overlap). He apparently never saw me and turned down hard into me driving me into the mark. Of course I gave him the protest hail. His reply? "Well if you weren't so f(*&#$ing fast this wouldn't have happened!". He bought an a-cat a year later.

It's almost always better to sail around monohulls at marks, even if you have all the rights in the world. They don't typically anticipate how fast you'll get in there, so they don't plan ahead (or react fast enough) to give you the room.

Mike

I knew somebody was going to lecture me about that. I was in the lead and would have had to tack twice to get around him which wasn't going to do me any good.

Had there been damage, it could have been bad for you.

I feel for you though, sometimes it's really hard to anticipate their (lack of) reaction.

Mike

Jake
So... Midwinters in January were held in the Keys (Ilesmorada) including Miami OCRs and youth qualifiers . for all classes...


The March/April period saw three events each trying to draw from the national pool of racers. The results are mixed..
Spring Fever all classes (cratered)
Hobie Midwinters Hobie 16, 17, 18 an No F18s)
Davis Island, A class.
Charlston for F18s never flew
Outer Banks for A class never flew.

So, this is tough on Regatta organizers.. This time period is the beginning of your sailing season in Fla, the South and the Gulf coast... What are your thoughts about what needs to happen looking forward to next year?

Each event on your list probably has a unique reason why it fell short - but I think you hit on it earlier at some point in that long thread. I've thought a good bit about this and I think it boils down to two related words: Outreach and Conversation. If you look back 10 years at the events that are struggling now, key people were very engaged in the national conversation around sailing and they don't seem to be as involved as they used to be on that level. I'm not placing ANY fault here...life, time, money, (thanks Jay) all get in the way. I also think that some of it is cyclical as the organizational energy transfers from old to new and I see some new that is ready to pick up and run.

I see the future unfolding two ways. The first one is a controlled method, the second is letting human nature take it (but with some risk).

1) For the big events to pick back up, they need to have conversations with the classes and other organizations about what they can do to be more accommodating and/or attractive to the classes/organizations. Through that, we will likely reforge some relationships and realize a slight reduction in the overall number of events. More partnership and a little rejuvenated energy will result and we'll get things back on track.

2) The other way this goes, is that we keep plodding along until enough events die that some of the new blood gets bored with having nothing to do and injects some excitement with something new once enough event death has occurred. There's risk in this option, however, because the newer folks might not be excited enough (or have enough free time) to pick up that big torch.

when you do sail around them and blow their doors off it is quite rewarding, especially if they are trying to stall you or box you out.

My 5-6 regattas at Charleston have all lead to bleeding on one part of my body or another, that harbor can get rough real quick, not sure if it is the container ships, current, wind, or all of the above but I have had only a few pleasereable sails there on a cat. I did have the Laser out there and the Whaler and had a blast, I think the harbor knows when you show up on a cat and says this world belongs to the E-Scows, go away!

Actually, it's the E-scows that say that. ;-) The harbor is challenging to sail. The current can induce a big chop and it can get sporty.

The F18 class did not attempt to attend Charleston, so I wouldn't say that was a failure.

Earlier you asked about the benefits of attending big multi-class events, and the stability of those events is a huge draw. With an event like the Newport or Hyannis regatta, there is a very very small chance of cancellation. Large events tend to have an organized web presence, timely pre-registration, and consistent logistics. It is very easy to plan in advance for these events because they happen the same weekend every year. If I had booked travel for an event like Spring fever only to have it cancelled I would be very unhappy.

Jeff and all - Do not forget about CORK. There will likely be a N 17 circle because that is Canada's "Olympic Classes Regatta" for the year. They spread their events out in contrast to the Miami gig. I am sure Pat L would be glad to have members of the F 18 Class with him on the water. We tried this last year, if I recall. If you would care for a hook - up, let me know.

FWIW, it's noted on the USF18 website event list that the F18 Canadian Nationals will be at Kingston ON Aug 16-19.

BTW - for you guys north of the border, nearly every single one of your catamaran related websites are outdated and have inaccurate info. The only place I could find information on Can Nats was on the US F18 site. Time to step it up

Please Explain how it could be bad for him if he had rights and wasn't doing anything wrong, unless you mean getting hit by a scow on an A. That would probably suck.
If you're on the same course and paid the same entry fee, giving everyone a pass because you are on a cat will do nothing to open their eyes and make them pay attention.

I was pretty ticked off at the time - but we laugh about it now. You just really have to watch your overlaps at the zone in that kind of mixed fleet and making some vocalizations doesn't hurt either. Running down a gaggle of J24s at C-mark while they're dorking around with a gybe drop of that ancient symmetrical spinnaker is P.A.I.N.F.U.L! ;-) Talk about a pinwheel!

Hey... the bowman union is going to take you out... try that maneuver in 15 knots... it is exciting. What is there to do for the bowman on a boat with an Asym?

Now... mixing it up on buoy course with Lightnings or bigger requires a LOT of trust... ie... the cat sailors knows the rules...and / or the mononohull sailor knows the rules and figures out time and distance quickly....

Racing C 24s against J 80s at the leeward mark during a St Pete NOOD was a bit confusion filled; the 24s were coming in on water-fire, and the J 80s were all lined up drifting down almost by the lee in 15 knts of breeze. We were recovering a lost halyard on the screacher when we gybed, so we came into the circle on the outside, just behind Raul on I Fly, coming into the J 80 parade on port. Since he and his daughter were clicking off about fifteen knots, and rounding upwind, the J 80s made sure they took no wide turns:-) I Fly flew out ahead of the gaggle of J 80s, and Twain came in mid - fleet. Had to keep driving off right to run around the end of J 80s. Raul was gone again.

If you read this far ...try http://www.cork.org/

Damage always, most definitely, sucks. It also opens the door for a RRS 14 protest (yes, the rule where a ROW boat CAN be penalized for collision with damage). We all know that anything can (and does) happen in the room, even when the judges aren’t biased and think they have a slam dunk solution.



It’s not about giving anyone else a pass. I’ve witnessed (and actually prevented) an attempt to take action against an entire fleet of cats due to the perceived actions of three boats (the threatened action was to uninvited the fleet ever again). I lost a ton of respect for several officials that day (also renewed my faith in a couple).

I’m not saying it’s right, or OK, but especially when we’re guests at someone else’s party, we have to be careful, or risk not being asked to come back. I know that’s probably too much for some folks here to wrap their heads around, and I’ve said too much about this already, so I’ll leave it there.



Rick White wrote about it many moons ago… SLOW DOWN TO WIN!!!

Mike

no damage, btw. It was a love tap.

I got in some hot water one time at the Reggae regatta one time at the A mark. Managed to sneak in a short tack right at the layline about 3 feet in front of a J24 just outside the at the time 2-BL circle. He was inches off my rear beam and yelling at me the whole time even though I was in the clear. No contact was ever made and after we turned the mark we sped away quite easily.

The guy came up to me later and apologized and said that I was in my rights to do that but he was in the lead of his fleet for the first time of the day and his temper was hot.

That same regatta we were on the same course as the Opti fleet and dear god you've never known terror like seeing dozens of Optis lined up like ducks during their start across the line you're coming downwind in 15 knots to finish at. I thought for sure a kid was going to die that day.

Sticking to the multi-class events that we don't run:

Wickford Regatta: We will likely be on a course with 505s and A-cats. We will sail WL courses, and will likely have a longer weather mark than the 505s. We sail with the 505s a lot, and it works fine. One thing to remember with the 505s is they have very different downwind modes and angles depending on the breeze and whether they are sit-running or wiring

Newport Regatta: We typically are on a course with 49ers, FX, VXone, A cats. I believe we have all sailed the same course in the past, and usually F18s start first. The VXone are a fair bit slower, but it is a small fleet and they haven't been a problem. They sail similar angles downwind which is nice. The 49ers also sail very similar angles which makes things easy. They also talk a lot of smack, but can't back it up with speed!

Hyannis: We share a course with J22s. They use a shorter weather mark and we start first. The angle and speed are very different, so there shouldn't be much interaction (although there has been a collision in the past).

HPDO: In the past we have shared with Viper 640s and K6s. Interacting with the Vipers can be tough because it is a very large fleet and they are just fast enough to be annoying. WIth a J22 you just cruise past, no worries. Vipers sail high enough angles and are almost fast enough to get in the way. We've had some crazy finishes at HPDO.

Overall, I think it is easy to share courses with boats that are either very similar speed and sailing style (49er) or very different (J22). In either case, the interaction is fairly predictable. It's when you have something like a Viper that is in between is when things are slightly more difficult. That said, the Viper guys are a lot of fun and I don't mind sharing with them. I would personally rather share a course with a 49er than a Hobie 16 because the speeds and angles are much closer.

I will say, the rules knowledge in parts of our fleet is the lowest of any I have raced in, which can be detrimental when racing in bigger events.

If there is a possibility that injury or damage will result in a claim (insurance, legal, personal, or otherwise), then it is absolutely vital to have a protest hearing. Although the protest committee (in the USA) does not adjudicate any claim for damages (see USS prescription 67(b)), responsibility for damages is based on fault as determined by the rules (see USS prescription 67(c)). Without a finding of facts from a protest hearing, insurance companies (and the courts) are unable to determine fault. Even with the facts, they are notoriously bad at applying the rules, so PC has to do that too.

If you think Protest Committee made a mistake in conducting the hearing or in applying the rules, then file an appeal. If you think the Appeals Committee got it wrong (and yes, I've seen it happen), appeal to a higher authority.


There are times when, for the sake of getting along, it's best to just let things slide. On the other hand, one sometimes needs to protest, even if it's unpopular. Remember the Basic Principle of Sportsmanship and the Rules, which states "competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce".

I once protested a boat racing one-design in a different fleet. The other skipper was very upset and couldn't understand why I protested, as I had nothing to gain by it. He yelled and complained (as did some of his other fleet members) until I finally asked him "do you really think it's ok to break the rules, just because the other boat is in a different fleet?".


If an event organizer threatened to exclude my fleet because we enforced the rules, then I suspect that's an event we would not attend again anyway.

Regards,
Eric

dear lord, I 'pologize...for starting this....pigmies in new guinny'.

Eric,

What do you do when time to file a protest has long since expired (still same day) and there was damage on the race course? Out of country btw, so international jury that has other things on their mind.

I agree with everything that Jeff has said. We regularly share courses with A-Cat's and other spinnaker beach cats, no issues. 505's are generally fine, but haven't had any encounters where we are both wired up downwind. It's the boats that are in-between a J/24, 22 etc. and us in speed that are an issue (larger trimarans and J/70's fall into this category). All manageable with some planning and rules knowledge. The lack of basic rules knowledge, even at the pointy end of the F18 fleet is appalling, and we really need to correct this as a fleet going forward.

As to Annapolis to Oxford, it's an event I do because of the format and no other reason. We had a sizable fleet of beach cats turn out last year, and you know some of the issues that prevailed. If it were up to me, NASS wouldn't take entries for boats without a spinnaker (i.e old Prindles and Hobies that show up for one event a year), for liability issues, but I am also torn because the more boats the better. I think getting some of these teams onto a more modern platform as crew would be beneficial to all. As to plucking monohull sailors into our fleet, I think we've managed to pick up one or 2 in the past 3 years of A to O's. Most of the monohulls don't respect our rights as racing vessels on the course, and few come up and talk after the race. There are some really cool guys on the faster boats, and I would like to make our boat available for rides after the race ends.

Any other thoughts on how to get more people in the fleet? What events are popular and why?

ummm.. because only good sailors sail boats with spinakers????

If the Div 11 Hobie 16 fleet showed up for the race... you would be hard pressed to save your time.

FYI... the Maryland Gov Cup (75 mile point to point) was the largest race on the bay when the guys who race once a year showed up... 1/2 of the event were recreational sailors.
Just because these new entries ...are not racers... does not mean that they are not good sailors...

Liability Issues... What are you talking about? Your liability... their liability or the OA and RC liability...

All skippers are responsible for their boats and crews on the water. Period... racing, cruising or anchoring.

The OA is not going to discriminate against one class of boats with special rules.. either beachcats race... or they don't race.

We have some common sense and informal guidelines in place that are applied at the fleet level for the new racers... We are not in the business of denying anyone entry. (hell our worst upsets involved experienced racers suffering serious injury)

Damage alone does not relieve a boat from her responsibilities to inform the protestee or to file, but there are some mitigating factors.

If the damage or injury is obvious to both boats involved, the protestor does not have to hail "protest" nor fly a flag, but she must still attempt to inform the other boat within the protest time limit. See RRS 61.1(a)(4).

The protestor still needs to file within the time limit, but if there is a good reason to extend the time, the protest committee must do so. See RRS 61.3.

Even if a boat's protest is invalid, the protest committee itself may file a protest if it learns of an incident that may have resulted in injury or serious damage. See RRS 60.3(a)(1).

So, if you were involved in an incident that resulted in injury (even minor injury), or serious damage (serious enough to require repair), but file after the time limit expires, you still have a couple of options. The first one is to request that the protest time limit be extended. If you made a good faith effort to deliver your protest within the time limit, but were prevented by circumstances beyond your control, then Protest Committee must extend the limit. Good reasons include taking injured crew to receive medical attention, or keeping a damaged boat from foundering. It does not include taking time to pack up and cover your boat, nor for stopping to take a shower and change clothes.

If you didn't properly inform the other boat, or can't get the time limit extended (or if your protest is invalid for some other reason), you can still request the Protest Committee to protest under rule 60.3(a)(1). If the damage is severe, or there is evidence of injury, a good PC will file its own protest and have the hearing.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Mark,

Its lack of information and dispersal of safety requirements for distance races to new teams, because the organizing authority assumes the big boats are following Chesapeake PHRF rules and the small boats CRAC rules. CRAC is a bit less formal...

As to saving time, that is a very bold statement to make when racing under PHRF...F18 rating hasn't changed in years...if you show up with a Shark then we will be afraid.

We want to include everyone, fleet turnout is too small as is, just looking to prevent catastrophe and get banned entirely....is there a reason the gov cup doesn't have a beach cat class??

Mark,

Well said, thank you.

I have enough of a problem with a certain monohull class that believes other boats should't be allowed on "their racecourse". I don't need the same attitude from other cat sailors. The water belongs to all boats, regardless of their hull count or sail plan - and even to boats without sails at all.

To say that a non-spin boat is a hazard because its skipper does not understand spinnaker sailing is baseless and insulting.

1. Just because my boat isn't rigged with a chute doesn't mean that I don't understand how a spinnaker changes a boat's sailing angles and speeds. Please don't impugn my intelligence.
2. I'm responsible for controlling my boat. You're responsible for controlling yours. As long as we both do that within the rules, the presence or absence of a spinnaker shouldn't affect our safety at all.

To keep the sport of sailboat racing alive, we need to include new sailors - not exclude them.

Sorry for the rant - this is a sore subject for me.

Regards,
Eric

Eric,

Appreciate the protest information.

I apologize if I came across as not inclusive to all sailors, especially as there are some very capable and skilled teams on Hobie 16's, Waves etc.

Background: this race is in open water, and teams have shown up with rigging that is 10+ years old, 30+ year old Prindles, Hobies etc. that have not been thoroughly inspected, suffered gear failure, managed to make it to shore but fail to inform race committee, and then prompt contact with local authorities. That looks bad on our community, but could happen to a well prepared spin boat just as easily.

Another factor to consider in distance racing is elapsed time, sun setting etc.

I'm sorry if I'm overreacting. I sympathize with the safety concerns surrounding open water sailing, and understand the need for well-maintained seaworthy designs with adequate lifesaving and communication equipment.

Nevertheless, I think it's a mistake to equate "rigging that is 10+ years old, 30+ year old <boats>. that have not been thoroughly inspected, suffered gear failure, managed to make it to shore but fail to inform race committee" with "boats without a spinnaker".

Sincerely,
Eric

Eric, I agree with all of your points regarding protests and the rules, and share a lot of your concerns with respect to spin/non-spin. There can be challenges running slower designs on long distances when there's marginal wind...

All, I think that in the case of distance races organized by others, it would behoove us to work in conjunction with the OA. Appoint a cat sailor to be the class captain, run inspections, work with the competitors to ensure basic expectations (safety plan) are met, etc. This could be the one small step that raises us above the rest, or could even save a life...

Mike

Hobie 16 ratings have been set in stone... its a yardstick boat in portsmouth. SCHRS adjusted everything 2 years ago.

Gov Cup... Nobody has ever gotten a fleet together and asked. but Since it's a night race... unmarked fish traps suck... It has been pirated at least three times by single boats.

...feel free to insert image of lead balloon dropping here...

Mike

Mike the suggestion is good and makes perfect sense and the lack of response is pretty normal. Heck we can't get people to go to regattas and now we want people to volunteer their time to organize and run inspections. Only the true believers will put their hand up for that and they are a dieing breed my friend.

Thanks Ding. We need to do something to turn the tide, I'm open to suggestions.

The idea that we can just show up and pay to join a regatta puts us at the mercy of other groups' decisions. Easy and painless in the short-term. Not exactly a recipe for long-term success.

Mike

I guess it depends on what you're looking to get out of said event(s). Out to sail, out to race with friends, global domination of your fleet/region/class, etc.

I had a long response typed up yesterday, but thought better of it and deleted it (spared you all).

With regard to distance races, there seems to be a lot of interest. However as part of the OA, it scares the heck out of us from a support and liability standpoint. I don't think a "your on your own" statement on the SIs is going to go too far in the courtroom if an incident happens. I'm no lawyer, so maybe it would, but I doubt it.

Logistically it would be really tough to ride herd on a fleet stretched out across a 20+ mile leg. With 1-design you have a chance, but with a mixed fleet, forget it.

How do you manage the risk and still let the guys with unknown abilities join in the fun?

Edits... I missed Jeff's response...

Jay: None of the above. Simply being invited back so you have events, period.

All: Jeff presents the real issue, and it's not limited to distance racing. One of the goals of the MRC is to help here, but each of us needs to own a piece of it; otherwise, we'll be branded as leaches (or worse).

Mike

I'll happily do the inspections...these boats aren't all being launched from the same area, and that is part of the problem. I'm not running all over town on race day to inspect boats when we barely make it to the line on time ourselves.

SCHRS is updated yearly, F18 is the yardstick. Portsmouth ratings for catamarans haven't been changed since 2006?, the person responsible is sadly no longer with us...a fair bit has happened in the F18 fleet since then, including but not limited to the advent of wing masts, modern hullshapes that can be driven much harder, longer, more efficient daggerboards, and advances in sail technology. Again, I'm only worried about a Hobie 16 correcting if it is a reach, and then only in certain wind ranges. I'm not saying they aren't fast, safe boats (one hasn't shown up to race this event fyi, they are more than welcome!), IMO better built than a lot of boats out there, but the mere fact that an outdated rating scheme is used makes it tough for them to compete against more modern equipment.

You guys need to get out more...

This is an area MRC needs to improve (communication of the following, at a minimum):

The Portsmouth system is handled by a committee, chaired by Carl Reigart. He comes to all of our meetings and begs us to submit data. With this data, numbers can be fixed.

Other members of the current committee include Bob Curry and Jamie Diamond, per the website: http://offshore.ussailing.org/Offsh.../North_American_Portsmouth_Committee.htm

Data is to be submitted directly to US Sailing headquarters (there is a form with the address here): http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/Reporting_Forms.htm

Data is power. When a Hobie 16 corrects in front, people blame the numbers (except when we beat you to the beach )... But, as Sam notes, the F18 ratings are so out of date that they're probably getting an unfair advantage at this point...

Hope this helps.

Mike

The numbers are only as good as the data. You should ask yourself when was the last time any of your results were submitted your results to the Portsmouth committee?

Was that aimed at me, or in general? I mentioned twice that the system needs new data...

Mike

The system needs data. well that is a problem and solutions are unlikely.

All of the dead boat society are at least 10 years past their last one design race. Data for these boats is garbage in and garbage out. (violates at least one of the assumptions of the Portsmouth system.) These ratings ... right or wrong should be set in stone.

Hobie 16, 17 and 18 are active one designs and the ratings for these boats simply should not change because you have 30 years of data where they have been the most popular class in NA. The boats have not changed... nor should the rating.

F18's and F16s are limited development classes which get faster over time. This is a problem for portsmouth because the boats coding does not reflect which generation of F18 is setting the rating for a race. Bottom line... The current f18's have a soft PN rating

Moreover, F16s don't have a lot of one design racing So when boats do race handicap the quality of the data is less reliable. (violates one of the assumptions of the Portsmouth system. Bottom line.... the PHRF origin for the F16 rating is probably OK because

Finally, the F18 and F16s need to race against a yardstick boat... eg the Hobie 16 around buoys in a 45 minute or so race.
Not many of those races exist in the USA these days. They race one design and their is no yardstick boats to compare them to.

Portsmouth rating for the A Class is just ridiculous because the
A class are unrestricted development and rating A class means taking the current fastest one. Since the fastest ones now are foiling down wind... Your A class rating is just gonna suck.

Nacra Carbon 20s, Marstrom 20s, Flying Tigers are essentially one off boats.. Fleets do not exist... the Rating calculated is for the skipper... not the boat in this circumsance.

The Nacra 17 is racing one design and the best solution will be to PHRF the rating.

Bottom line....The data have to exist ... IE... that is qualified data before you can run the portsmouth system.

Perversely, the fact that the PN table has not changed in years is a feature... right or wrong... the numbers are set in stone so people just deal with it.

The Portsmouth Committee needs to ID the few surviving Handicap regattas that meet the standard assumptions and get their result times to even have a shot at updating the table.

Sending in race data is not the solution right now to portsmouth updates.

Mike, this simply is not going to happen. Even in the best of times when Darline was driving the bus the data was a trickle and was never statistically significant. Any time the numbers were changed they were done with a best guess and good intentions (much like the SCHRS change).

I suggested to Carl years ago that an audit be done comparing the DPN numbers against the existing popular handicap systems (Texel, SCHRS) and make adjustments where the audit indicated and zero was done. Part of moving forward is recognizing what doesn't work and formulating a plan that might. Until that happens we will mark time for another 10 years, point fingers and do nothing!

There isn't a single revelation in any of the recent threads. Waiting for a consensus or depending on a survey is pointless. Choose a direction select a handful of believers and move forward.

Mark...

No data = no fix.

Some data = some fix.

Lots of folks would argue that some improvement is better than none, and most of us accept Portsmouth as an imperfect solution that takes marginal effort.

Personally, I'd have zero problems moving to a different system, but years of debating has resulted in zero support, and more importantly, zero volunteer base to make the sale and implement.

Arguably, today's Hobie 16s are at least somewhat faster than the old days, even 10 years ago. Incremental changes have been made to stiffen the platform, allow greater mast rake, and improve handling of running rigging to make adjustments and maneuvers easier. Since Portsmouth is based on performance and not strictly design, an excellent case can be made to update the number. Having said that, the difference probably isn't much, and we'll need a bunch of new data to make a dent in the existing pool.

Mike

Ding, see above...

My sense is that we have bigger fish to fry than changing our Handicapping system.

Mike

+1 as there appear to be less PHRF racing for beachcats than class/OD style events.

Are there THAT many sailors that are discouraged from racing because they feel their rating is unfair/someone has a rating "beater"?

A good point about dead boats and why their rating shouldn't change (except for mods) from when it was a popular class (like the N20 at 59.2?).

The DPN on popular fleets (F18, H16) should probably move as they develop new techniques (like "wild thing") and platform improvements.

So in theory, I could sail a little bit closer to the DPN on my I-18 if I improved the sailplan somewhat. The hull-form would probably be the limiting factor then.

Should the one-offs use some version of a SCHRS/DPN conversion until such time as there are enough boats for a 'pure' DPN based on actual performance? I guess it would still be somewhat based on skipper performance at that point, but that might be a blend of theoretical and actual performances...

+1 as there appear to be less PHRF racing for beachcats than class/OD style events ...

Beach Cats do not meet the criteria for PHRF certification, since that formula is used for larger boats that enjoy racing offshore. The Texel Rating system appears the most user - friendly system for custom one - offs. There is even a formula for foils.

apologies. I was thinking of the DPN numbers

+1. I honestly did not mean to stir up this can of worms. I will say it has been my experience that the better sailor usually wins when racing SCHRS. It is a pretty fair rating system at least between like-boats, i.e F-16, F-18, N20 and pre-foiling A-Cat.

The real topic of this thread was how to build participation at regattas. I continue to be of the opinion that if the F-16's pay to race, they are welcome on the F-18 course. Others may disagree but when sailed within the correct weight ranges these boats truly are very close in speed, angles etc. Yes, I would prefer there to be LESS options in the sailing world-seems to me the Nacra 17 has done little but suck F-18 sailors out of the fleet-but I would still rather see more boats at events period. Hosting F-16 only and F-18 only events are a little silly to me, would you prefer to race in a 15 boat fleet or a 30+ boat fleet with the potential for more female sailors??

Sam has his eye on the ball

The F-18 fleet got alot of those sailors from Tornado when it imploded, so they weren't really "f-18" sailors ,they were olympic class sailors.So when there was no Olympic class they went to the closest style ,best run class, which was and is F-18. You're only option to avoid it was to push the F-18 for Olympic status which would have been a big mistake and was handled well by the F-18 class.

You left out fleet size. For bigger fleets including more females, it's hard to beat the Hobie 16.

Mike

But... I want my cake and eat it too. Is it too much to ask for cool boats and hot chicks at the same time? Are they mutually exclusive?

Yes, the spin boats are 'too much work' for most women. Sorry if that comes across as sexist, but from what I've seen out on the race course, there are very few women who are up to the task of doing all the work a spin boat requires, in both the setup and the sailing. It's a huge PITA for me too. So much so that I'm considering buying a Hobie 16.

I wish it were not so, I would love to see more girls out there. I have 3 daughters whom I would love to have out there sailing with me (or against me) all day, but after each one got a few rides on my spin boats, they wanted no part of racing on them. They will all happily go out on the Hobie 14 and Prindle 18 in my backyard, but when it comes to racing and putting up and snuffing the spin, not so much.

That is why I have always envied you guys who have a willing female companion. My wife hates sailboats, she thinks the whole concept is antiquated and she calls it "Stupid". She would much rather I sell my sailboats and buy a power boat, so all she has to do is "Turn the Key" and go, no worrying about which way the wind is blowing, or even if there is any wind at all, or too little, or too much.

There are some frustrating days at no-wind regattas where I have to agree with her. Sitting on a sailboat with no wind, is about as much fun as sitting in a power boat...

with no gas!

Locally we have 4-5 vipers with ladies running the crew side. They seem to be doing well.

We race the f18 mixed, while my wife can crew, we do much better when I can convince her to drive.

I've always thought the spin boats go faster with the heavy guy at the crew position, and the lighter guy/girl at the back.

It seems to keep the boat more in trim that way. The only problem with that setup for me was, my girls were too intimidated by other boats, and didn't want to drive.

You sure slid into calling her "the wife" in a hurry!

Well I have had about 82 dozen reminders already!

Just wait until you get to...

99!

Very fair point, and I am happy that the F-18 class stayed out of the Olympic limelight. In reality, most of these sailors haven't sold their F18's and still show up for major events like Nationals/America's. The reality is we aren't attracting new people to the boats and I am not sure how to change that mindset??

Women are more than capable of crewing if you set the boat up correctly for them with a 12:1 mainsheet and double ratchets on the kite. The Nacra 17's has over half the fleet with females crewing and men driving, and word on the street is sheet loads are much higher than on the 18 (remember, double trapped downwind with the kite up). Reality is they pouched the best crews from other classes (470's, Laser Radials etc.), paired with the top catamaran skippers, who happen to be male because we don't like to hand over the helm (don't try and spin it your way timbo-girls aren't scared to play bumper boat), and you end up with a winning combination. As the class matures and more female sailors gain experience driving, I suspect we'll see a role reversal. But to expect trickle down into the F-18 or F-16's fleet is naive.

How do we attract more of those CofC sailors to our fleets post graduation?

My post regarding DPN was an example that even when a possible solution is presented that might move something in a positive direction it's dismissed and we go right back to banging on a solution that has no hope of working (submitting data). And this attitude is what is wrong and needs to be fixed. Seems like everyone is so afraid of failing they won't ever try to stick their neck out to make something happen.

Ping me when you guys come up with a plan it's getting boring reading the same sh!t over and over. Until then I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

Spin it any way you want Ding. Where's your big plan? Are you going to own this new system? Step right up and make it happen.

Mike

SCHRS works fine and is updated with real world data yearly.

OK, so far we have Mark Schneider, Dave Ingram, and Sam in favor of changing to a new system.

What we need is a champion. Don't pass the buck to me, you haven't sold me that this is a need and clear improvement.

Draft a proposal, and be willing to fight for it, then to own implementation. I'll be more than happy to add it to the agenda for discussion by the MHRC.

Mike

Add me to that list. It's long overdue and way past time to put Portsmouth to pasture.

OK, we should probably take this to a separate thread, but are we adding you to the list of people who will take action on this?

Mike

Mike...
This is not an MHC call.... FACT... Each Club makes that call of what handicap system to use based on what their members want to use.

BUT the MHC and US Sailing can take a leadership position here.

How did it work BACK IN THE DAY!.... it was contentious to switch from NAMSA to USA Portsmouth.... Those in the know had an opinion.... The sailors ultimately decided that the US SAILINGS stamp of approval had some meaning... there was no value in running a NAMSA table which was proprietary to a guy named Herb Malm...and was used exclusively for Catamarans. The USA switched in about two seasons following Darline Hobocks AND US SAILINGS leadership.

The world is different. Quality and qualified data simply do not exist for portsmouth calculations. Now the only real choice is SCHRS or TEXEL.... 9tapping into the stronger EU cat scene) So, since SCHRS is sanctioned by ISAF and thus US Sailing... SCHRS is the obvious alternative. The MHC and US Sailing could move the community by putting their good housekeeping seal on US SCHRS.

The MHC could make life easy for US clubs and get certified measurements for the one design classes that did not make it to the EU.... (Isotope, Shark, CFR 20 and some others)... This would create a SCHRS table with full integrity. The good house keeping seal of approval by US Sailing will matter to clubs running handicap beach cat races... US Portmsouth is still valid for clubs racing mono's and cats in the same start. Nothing would change for the US Sailing Portsmouth system. Race data is race data... independent of what rating system is used to compute the score-sheet. ...

Sounds reasonable. Make it happen...

Mike

Do we have any examples of the differences we might see between the 2 systems? Does SCHRS rate an F18 faster than Portsmouth? What differences would we see?

http://www.schrs.com/ratings.php

There's some weirdness in there...

Edit: However, after reading the 2014 change summary, I can understand the ratings a bit better. Sounds like a valient attempt at an impossible task.

Edit #2: Check the chart at the bottom of the PDF here for relative rankings of various boats as a function of time.

no handicap system is ever going to be perfect. Ever. With that in mind, here are how the two systems compare:

In SCHRS, F18 is the scratch boat. It's correction factor is 1 and everything else is based off it. Acat and F16 (2up) are rated the same). It's a little tough to compare them because the resulting correcting factors are a bit different.

To really compare the ratings, I've flipped around the formulas so that we are comparing them based off an elapsed time of 30 minutes for the F18...basically making it the scratch boat in both systems. I then took that corrected finished time and backed out the other boats elapsed times as if they all perfectly tied on the handicap corrected times.

Anybody step in here if I screwed this up - I didn't double check these numbers. (the code window maintains spacing in the table that would otherwise be ignored by the forum software)




Under portsmouth, again, normalized so the F18 has an actual 30 minute elapsed time and backing out the other boat's elapsed times assuming a handicapped tie, we have the following for Portsmouth/DPN. You can really ignore the value of the "corrected" times. All that matters is that the end result is a tie between the boats where the F18 ran the same length race in both scoring systems.



So, in this case, Portsmouth is considerably different on the ratings and makes it harder on the F18 (I'm biased anyway). Also notable is that the Acat and F16 (2up) are rated differently under Portsmouth but considered equal under SCHRS.

Under Portsmouth, the F18 would need to beat the F16 by 18 seconds to correct over them. SCHRS says it only needs to be 4 seconds.

Under Portsmouth, the F18 would need to beat the A-cat by right at 1 minute in a 30 minute race to correct ahead of them. Under SCHRS, it's only 4 seconds.

Under Portsmouth, the F18 would need to be 6:33 seconds ahead of the Hobie 16 to take the win. Under SCHRS, the F18 would need to be ahead by 4:21 to take the win.


In summary, SCHRS seems to rate the boats significantly closer together than Portsmouth does. Frankly, I think the existing Portsmouth numbers are closer to reality than SCHRS.

Thank you Jake, that's what I was looking for. It seems we may only think the grass is greener on the other side.

I would also think the baseline boat would be better as an OD boat that has been the same for many years. What happens when the F18 gets faster? Does everyone change or does a scratch boat cease to exist?

SCHRS is a measurement based system with tweaks. It is a complicated formula that predicts boat performance by physical dimensions and configurations. Technically speaking, as long as the F18 keeps the same foil type, mast type, hull dimensions, and sail area, it's SCHRS number should not change even if the sail shapes and batten technology make minor evolution changes and make the boat quicker.

The SCHRS folks have realized that there is more to it than this and they evolve their formula as things change. It's a lot of complex hard work and physically measuring boats has to happen.

The two systems are very different - Portsmouth attempts to calculate a handicap number based on actual race results. The weaknesses are that A) you have to get people to submit race results B) the software that was used to run the statistics was written in Fortran (which was brilliantly assembled but hard to run today...someone may have modernized it by now though) C) boat age and sailor skill level will affect the ratings. For instance on "C", suppose the Hobie 14 is mostly sailed by inexperienced sailors and it's rating creeps as a result. Then a skilled sailor makes a campaign on it and wins everything in sight. Is that fair?

SCHRS suffers from the rigidity of it's system and that it is somewhat uncoupled from many of the other hard to measure dynamics that make a boat fast or slow. This results in the need for complex formula tweaks to refine it.

Which one is more accurate? They're pretty different. I can't honestly say that I've ever felt like a handicap race result under DPN was unfair (although Nigel might say different from Wateree ;-). But, then again, I have a different expectation for handicap racing and don't take the result quite as seriously as I would an OD event. Overall, however, I think Portsmouth has a better opportunity to be more accurate but suffers from human nature.

Great stuff, guys. This helps a lot.

You make a great point about boats/sailors getting slower. My opinion would be to not increase a handicap based on boats getting less seaworthy and sailors getting Alzheimer's. Unless changes are made to a design/materials, or someone can prove a gross error in calculation of a number (assuming it was based on a large enough data set), I would expect the numbers to be adjusted only to deal with the boats and sailors getting faster.

Mike

Jake, that is a nice summary.

The only thing I would add is that the variance due to boat design is much smaller then the variance between sailing ability. See the F16 discussion.

Second point... the nature of the rules contribute to the lack of precision.
Consider... that for a 30 foot One design boat...and 10 boats in the race... a port tack boat coming into the lay line TIED for first with other perfectly sailed boats will loose three percent in time when the rules force them to bail out and fall into line in 10th place to round the mark. So... the variance will be 3% racing on time even in one design boats because of the rules.

Taking Times will not do better then 3% for 10 30 foot boats and so on.

The major advantage is transparency. Numbers don't lie... the formula is evaluated against the real world. considered by a committe for accuracy and fairness, and applied to all boat classes equally and it is published and sanctioned world wide.... you plug and chug to get your rating...

Everyone has an opinion on the accuracy of the table. If we want to average opinions... that is called PHRF and it can work... it is just not very transparent.

There is no argument that Sarah and JC turned in the rating on the Nacra 17 against joe noname who has the only A cat in the race.... So.. they have created a very hard rating to sail the N17to... The weekend sailor cant sail the boat to it's rating and compete against joe blow on the A cat...
The bar talk about the formula lasts 10 seconds.... the bar talk about Sarah and JC versus joe blow on the A cat lasts indefinitely and is meaningless.

Choose.

Another area that appears to be different are wind speed related corrections. SCHRS doesn't seem to factor this in. Realize it would be a real monster to try to simulate via mathematical calcs, but there are clearly differences in how boats behave as the wind comes up.

I guess that's a potential benefit of the empirically derived DPN system.

Mike,

I was studying that very thing when I was involved. The problem is that you need the rating to have some ability to creep up so that it can settle in. If it had no ability to creep upward, random noise or one human mistake in a submitted result could really unfavorably tilt the rating and it would have no ability to correct.

Darline shared with me the original files and a theory document that explained the calculation of the DPN handicap. While I used to be fluent in Fortran at one time, the statistical part of it was pretty advanced and a bit over my head without an investment in some statistics book-learnin' on my part.

While we were examining this issue, I had considered a way that a rating can lower at a full rate but for it to correct in the higher (slower) direction would be at some reduced rate...say 25% of the rate that it could decrease. That would give it some ability to settle in and account for the outliers in the data while at least slowing down the aging fleet ratings. There were several cases of good sailors taking advantage of this rating creep at the time - but I haven't seen any of that in a long while.

all of this depends on getting submitted results and, even if we could make that happen, it's a monstrous task to get those results entered into a homogenized format that can be used for crunching.

jeff R

Portsmouth uses wind speed ratings or DPN. DPN is 80% of the B4 rating... eg 12 to 18.

SCHRS and Texel use righting moment in the formula so it is considered. Texel did calculate two ratings... hull flying and displacement however most of the Dutch clubs did not use the two ratings because the variance of the sailors was greater then the rating difference at the club level... (basically it wasn't worth it)

would accurate VPP information from the mfg. be of any help?

They would be biased to make their polars look as stellar as possible (preventing the sandbagging argument) to sell more boats.

It would provide data on point of sail and tws

Not sure how you'd crunch that into a particular platform's ideal speed/time around a course...

What we need is a way to make entering the data easier/automated...

Mike

I have a feeling very few small catamarans have accurate VPP data. The system is so dynamic that it would be extremely difficult to develop an accurate model that covers the different sailing modes and the transitions between them.

I have sailed a fair amount under the texel system in Singapore and Thailand and it works very well. There really hasn't been a time where I felt a boat didn't deserve the place the received.

Do we even have that much good data to enter? What makes the data useable? I'm assuming we're taking about skilled guys racing open class with somewhat consistent results.

surely someone could figure that out along with the calendar.

What is needed to set up the electronic timekeeping thing like the runners use (those little FOBs you wear on your shoe)?

do you need to stretch an antennae across the finish line or something? That would be hard for boats (mast or daggarboards), but if it's some directional antennae (or two), it could probably work to record reasonably accurate finish times for boats which could then automatically load in whatever program (sailworks or whatever)...

If USS hosted the regatta software cloud thingy, maybe your results could be instantly available to USS?

Then the only thing would be to lodge protest hearing results ?

You PROs probably know more about the inner workings of these regatta programs...

Agreed. I had discussions with Colin Jenkins (the creator of Sailwave) and he was able and willing to include a "submit to US Sailing" option in the software. We just needed US Sailing to setup an FTP site to receive the information. It was at the time that the US Sailing website was being completely overhauled and Darline and I couldn't seem to get any attention about it... though I really wasn't screaming about it I know Darline did have some conversations to that point.

However, I think Sailwave is INCREDIBLY powerful but has gotten a little overly complex to expect everyone to use it. If you are not using it frequently it's hard to remember how to set it up correctly. I use it maybe once a year and I struggle with it until that "oh yeah, crap...that setting" moment. Setting up an Excel spreadsheet is sometimes easier. It could benefit from some streamlining of the setup process and/or having several regatta templates to choose from at the get-go. Actually, I should probably contact Colin about that to see if he hasn't already thought of that.

We race every week under SCHRS with Nacra 20's, F18, F16 and A-Cat. There hasn't been much whining at the bar lately. None as I recall, even when the splits were under 5 seconds. The team that sailed best that week usually won. It is very difficult to argue with a formula.

Of course you would since the F18 owes other boats less time under SCHRS. I could find a lot of ways to argue with a formula that tries to cover something so dynamic as boat potential. Have you seen the number of variables that go into the formula? Those guys have put an incredible amount of brain power into it but who says it's any more accurate than our current Portsmouth numbers? How do you prove it? The fact that nobody complains is hardly proof of anything other than the fact people accept handicap racing for what it is.


Reference SCHRS rules

Well, real-time entry is the ultimate dream, but in this case, I was referring to making it easier to get existing data into the system, if for no other reason than comparing new/proposed systems.

There are so many systems in use, it's crazy. Everyone has their favorite, and when you work for as many different classes and OAs as I do, you learn to be OK with delegating to the local expert. Other times, you have to take ownership. It's sometimes a delicate balance.

Mike

Jordonna is in huge favor of SCHRS and is already reviewing our race results under that system.

Jake You must talk about Accuracy along with Transparency... it does not serve the debate to consider only one factor.

Accuracy assumes that their exists a perfect single number rating for a boat. Now... even if we knew that number... the fact is that the racing rules of sailing will add noise of a few percent. So...the precision of your finish time is plus or minus a few percent. Basically the tables use one decimal place and you can have two classes tie on corrected time even tho one beats the other across the line. Handicap won't resolve close finishes as well as one design. That is the nature o the game... Accuracy of any table is always debatable.

We obviously want an accurate ratings table and accept the limitations of finishing by time and not position. BECAUSE accuracy is in the eye of the beholder... we count on the national and international sanctioning bodies to declare one table is accurate and approved.

Of almost equal Value as Accuracy is Transparency... Do you know the factors used in generating the rating because it is likely that you (or someone) will disagree with the accuracy of the table for your boat or theirs. Transparency addresses HOW you get to an accurate table.

How you get to an "accurate" table of boats is one of three ways.
Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder SO...we count on the sanctioning bodies... ISAF and US Sailing to declare one or all acceptable. US Sailing declares three handicaping systems accurate. PHRF, Measurement and Portsmouth. They differ in transparency.

Portsmouth... collects data for yardstick and active one designs and generates the table. Problem is. Not enough quality data for new designs racing against the yardstick boats exist. All data have to be filtered. The races used to calculate a rating may be historical because 100 data points are used. The problem is with getting valid quality data and major corrections have been required to fix problems that were caused by bad data. One off boats get ratings (to be user friendly) that are not valid.

Measurement. A committee works out a formula based on the sailing physics, curve fits to data, etc etc. The rating table is based on the published formula applied to all boat classes and the measured parameters of a specific boat or class of boats (one design) Examples are MORC, HPR (Monohulls) SCHRS and Texel (cats.) This table is the most transparent.

PHRF... A committee works out their best judgment based on declared parameters and measured values and the observed performance on the race course.. This is a local committee which takes into account local issues like current etc.
Transparency is low because the committee meetings are private... but you can appeal your rating. PHRF tables exist for monos and big multis' PHRF tables differ a lot across the country.

I believe that SCHRS is the best solution for both Accuracy and Transparency PLUS it is sanctioned by ISAF.

Calling me biased is pretty unfair. Any given week we'll be racing on a Nacra 20 or F16, if we can't get the F18 mast up in time for a midweek race. Besides, we were racing under 2012 SCHRS tables which have the F-18 and the A-Cat as equals. Any given week we'd win or they'd win, depending on how much upwind vs. downwind work was involved and the wind strength. This was for a 2008 Nacra Infusion w/o long boards and older generation A's without curved boards or t-foil rudders.

That goes for the other classes. The newest F16 designs are equal in performance to the F18's, which isn't surprising since that was the design intent! I will say they are a tiny tiny bit faster in light air, but regardless of conditions the better sailed boat wins and the corrected time delta is on the order of seconds for a 1 hour course.

We ran the numbers both ways before switching. Maybe there was one boat that swapped positions with another using SCHRS vs. Portsmouth after an entire season of racing. The delta just isn't there and SCHRS is fully transparent, plus does a better job of handling one-off's like modified ARC22's.

Again, absolutely not defending Portsmouth above all others, but there is a process in place to get a provisional number for a new boat. The process is neither fast nor perfect, but is part of the program.

If you guys are serious about putting together a proposal to change to a new system, please be sure to include strengths and weaknesses of all aspects of the systems being assessed, including Portsmouth.

Mike

Portsmouth can be transparent but as I mentioned earlier, the statistics that go into it are complicated. Heck, I probably have the document that explains the math but few of us would probably understand it (Jamie Diamond is probably one of them). I would venture a guess that the complexity of it, and not having the original people available, would be a hurdle if we had data to compile.

That said, I really appreciate the energy (and people) that made DPN. They were brilliant people who built a system that has the potential to be an exceptionally accurate handicapping system. I don't have a problem racing under the numbers as they stand today - I feel like they are fair and accurate. It also has the ability to adjust for different wind strengths that SCHRS does not - and Sam just stated how who wins under SCHRS depends on the conditions.

I made a MHC proposal in 2009 to use a marriage of the two systems - use a measurement based system (adopt from SCHRS) to establish provisional DPN number for a new type of boat until enough data is had to zero in on an accurate rating. We've been talking about this for a long time.

Handicap racing is what it is - and I don't expect it to be the ultimate test of my ability. However, for the reasons stated above, I prefer DPN if we can keep it actively adjusting.

God bless Dick Blanchard (NAMSA) and Darlene Hobock (USSA) - long may they live.

Carl Reigart is the new leader, and he welcomes data, and ideas for growth.

How many OAs around the country, especially the deep south (GYA), wish to roll over to a new system such as SCHRS, Texel, or local club inventions?