FXone VS Tiger

I'm in the market for something like these two.

Any pros and cons for these two. I mostly sail single handed and don't race because I'm the only cat around, however I like high performance.

I will occasionally take out (sailing) my better half and a friend or two.

I am a competant sailor with lots of windsurfing experience and my H14 I have had for a few years.

The FXone and Tiger are quite different boats. The Tiger is an F18 and is designed to be sailed 2 up - probably best by two blokes as it weighs around 185kg and to move it around the beach on your own would be nearly impossible. I suspect this boat would also be almost impossible to right on your own if you should capsize it while sailing one up. Given the above once on the water these boats are apparently very nice.

The FXone was designed to be a single handed boat which I believe you can stick a jib on and take a passenger for a ride. I think the FXone weighs in around 145kg. This is probably a much better choice for what you want than a Tiger. Those with more knowledge of the FXone may wish to comment.

From what you are saying are your planned uses of the boats I suggest you look into F16 boats. These are lightweight, high performance boats designed to be sailed one up or two up, with or without spinnaker, with or without a jib. The typical weight of a single handed F16 with spi is about 100kg and sloop rigged with spi ready to sail 2 up about 110 kg.

These boats are easy to move around the beach, easy to right, easy to put on and off the trailer and have the same Texel rating as the F18 (ie they are theoretically the same speed).

See: http://www.geocities.com/F16HPclass/

and also see the F16 High Performance forum on this website.

I sail a Taipan 4.9 with Spinnaker (see attached photo - not my boat) and it is an absolute blast. Highly recommended. Reports on other F16's have also been very positive.

I hope this helps,

Rob.

Hi,
In 2002, I too was looking for a mostly-single-hander, but occasional-2-to-4 person boat (for wife and kids).
I had narrowed it down to the Hobie FX-1, Taipan 4.9, and A-Class.
A-Class was eliminated first in the decision process as it was too fragile and small for the family outings and occasional beach landings, with my Cat Trax on the beach I left, not on the beach I'm going to (though a small anchor works wonders).
Then it was between Taipan 4.9 and Hobie FX-1. The FX-1 won in the end, which is what I have now. I bought the jib kit and call it an FX-2 in this configuration (see image, attached). I sail it this way solo too, as the jib furls.
If you want, contact me offline and we can discuss further or keep this thread going!

Steve
Hobie FX-1, Sail # 211

Steve,

Your comment that the A-class is too fragile is a very erroneous statement and seems ignorant from my viewpoint. I've owned two A-Cats starting with a Boyer Mk. IV that I sold to upgrade to a Boyer Mk. V two years ago. The Mark IV (a 2000 model) is still sailing quite strongly and I have not had one issue with my Mk. V and it has been sailed quite hard in all conditions. It is as stiff and leak free as the day I got it. There is not one stress crack on it.

I have also owned a P-19 and a Tornado. My P-19 had deck delamination after one year, many areas with stress cracks, and yellowing gel coat. My Tornado was a Marstrom that I owned for 5 years, no issues at all but hey, it's a Marstrom.

You should really know what you are talking about before you label any boat fragile. True, an A-class is not the classic beach cat that can be slammed into the beach at full speed. It is a high performance racing yacht, the finest I have ever sailed in over 30 years of sailing. I take my girlfriend out quite often on my boat in all conditions. We have even gone full moon night sailing on it.

I agree that the poster above may not be a candidate for an A-class but please have experience with one before you give it such a negative label.

Thanks.

Bob, in talking with the two local A Cat owners, I understood that only one person could sail on an A Cat at one time without voiding the warrantee. Is this true?

Caleb Tarleton Seattle

Acat,

I think his comments about being fragile were about putting 4 people on an a-cat. Not necessarily that they are weak by design.

The Auscat warranty is based upon regular use with a crew weight not exceeding 120 kg (264 lb). I think Greg and Jim do this to set some limit on common sense use with the boat. Greg and Jim both have technical backgrounds and be assured that there is a conservative safety factor built into that number. I base that observation on the condition of 4-8 year old Auscats I have personally seen sailing.

In mentioning my girlfriend, I weigh 160 lbs and she weighs 130 lbs so I do not feel we are endangering the boat (it sails quite well with the both of us on it). It's also the perfect platform for Dad to take 1-2 kids out on in light to moderate air. I have given my girlfriend's son some big thrills in 10-15 knots (now he'll never sail 420's, Lasers, or Sunfish).

Again, remember it is a high performance racing platform intended for singlehanded racing. I find people's comments interesting when they say the boat is too fragile for carrying 2 kids and the wife and doing loaded beach landings. That is not the design intent of the boat. In a similar vein, I could say the I-20 is a fragile boat because I have seen platforms and masts broken up in the surf during the Worrell 1000 but we all know that big surf sailing is not really the design intent of that boat, right?????

Hi ACat144,

First of all, calling someone on this forum ignorant is uncalled for.

Second, My evaluation of the robustness or fragility of an A-Class cat as a family beach cat was not done from an armchair, but by personally going out and sailing 3 different models over a 1 year period (which brands I will not mention as they were fine boats for their purpose and I don't want to discredit them on a public forum). I also test sailed and raced a Taipan 4.9 several times, and it was a very close second.

I've owned 6 catamarans since 1985, all purchased new. All were purchased with much thought and deliberation, as was my last purchase. The fact that the A-class made it to my top 3 is a credit to the boat. Would you put 4 people on your $14,000 A-class and beach land it without wheels or cradles? I doubt it. The boat was not designed for that.

I'm also curious in what the price difference was between your P-19 and the Marstrom Torndado? I suspect you could buy two P-19's for the price of the Tornado. The P-19 was and is a fine boat for the price. The delaminations you describe may have been caused by poor maintentance practices, such as storing it without drying out the hulls, etc... I've never had a boat delaminate, and I live in an area where it goes below freezing frequently and for long periods of time. The boats I've owned and sold are still in my area, and they are all going strong. They were raced hard, including about 10 Down-the-bay regattas (150 miles) and 6 Chesapeake 100's. The boats often got me some hardware, including a first place.

In the future, keep your derogatory comments to yourself.

Steve

Alan,

My last post after my A-class comments (which really have nothing to do with your inquiry). I agree with the previous poster about the Taipan 4.9. I've sailed at several regattas where these boats were racing both as two man sloops and one man uni's. This is the boat that Hobie and Performance Catamaran need to be building NOW. It light and strong and very fast. It is also extremely versatile with the easy rig conversions from sloop to uni. IMO it is the perfect guy/girl boat and would make an excellent junior boat.

The down side is the boat is pricey and hard to get at this time due to the current exchange rate. If you can find a good used one or perhaps a new one in stock, it's a great package.

Good Luck,

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 147
Sail light, sail fast

Steve,

My post did not mean to call you ignorant and I should not have used that wording. I apologize. We in the A-class are getting sensitive to people using that fragile term "loosely" about our boats when we believe that the platforms are incredibly strong, stiff, and durable. I've been active in the class for three years and other than my Tornado, they're about the best constructed and rigged boats I've seen.

Regarding my experience with the P-19, I was disappointed in some of the problems I had with the boat. The gel coat stress cracks were only cosmetic but ugly but then the gel coat yellowed after about 2 years of use. The delamination I mentioned occurred on the aft deck of one of the hulls. I fixed it by drilling holes in the outer skin and injecting epoxy resin, never had a problem after that. The boat was always stored on a trailer with padded cradles, always covered, and always moved with a beach dolly. I owned the boat for eight years. I had fun with it (my first beach cat) but I felt the construction quality was fair at best.

Regards,

Bob Hodges

Hi Bob,

No problem - I didn't realize it was you. I too am sorry for any negative vibes.

The A-Class is a great boat, but more importantly a great class, which is a result of the people too.

I had another thought regarding hull delaminations which for some reason seems more prevalent on beach cats than other style boats. Someone once told me it was beacuse of lightning strikes. Since beach cats are more frequently stored with masts up, they get mild hits when nobody is around to witness it, often in the night. That sends heat at areas at or around the chainplates and causes the boat to delaminate there. Sounds believable, but probably not applicable to yours, since it was stored on a trailer.

Anyway, I will not use the word "fragile" again regarding A-Cats.

Steve
Hobie FX-1, Sail# 211

Alan,

You may want to take a look at the I17R. It is very comparable to the Taipan and the FX-1. It also has a jib kit and spinnaker. I have the jib kit with single forestay. The Inter 17 has these big bows that really help save the boat in big wind gusts with the spinnaker up! You folks know anything about big wind up there in sunny Labrador?! (by the way, what is the warmest water temperature reached up there?)

Also, the I17R is probably better in big waves than either the Taipan or FX-1. Also, I believe the I17R is probably faster than those boats in any wind above say 10-11 knots.

Tom Turlington
I17R #124
Pensacola, FL

ps. The A-cats are pretty boats also, but I don't believe I have ever seen one in an offshore race.

Tom,

Not sure what you mean by offshore. The photos of the A-cat worlds in New Zealand show some large seas they're racing in. I've seen videos of A-cats sailing in >20knot winds with whitecaps on top of rollers. I've never sailed one, and know one would suggest the A as a Worrell boat. But they certainly appear to handle any conditions you'd sail an I17R in. Skipper skill is the bigger issue.

Eric,

By offshore, I was talking Gulf of Mexico here below northwestern Florida. It's not like the Atlantic Ocean. The waves can be quite high, but close together. I17R is heavier and has larger bows. Because of that, I believe it would be better suited to it than an A cat or Taipan 4.9.

Tom

ps. Eric,

I know it's long way, but if you have the money and the time you should come race the "Round the Island " race over here in northwestern Florida. It's 100 miles. Half in the Gulf; half inside. There was a Taipan 4.9 that did it a couple years ago. No A cats that I know of yet. Two I17R's last year.

Tom

Tom,

I think an A-boat will handle that Gulf chop just fine. I've thought about doing Round the Island on my A-boat but just don't know if I want to talk to myself for that long. Still thinking about it.

Cheers,

Bob

I have had my FX for almost 2 years now...living in the Virgin Islands I get to do lots of sailing in all kinds of conditions...the FX does very well in 3-5 ft seas and 15-20kts wind as well or beter than the I-17 which there is one here...The FX is has a faster rating than the I-17...not the R...so unless you have first hand knowledge of the 2 boats keeping your guessing to yourself

There it is again!
That myth that the Taipan is somehow a unique design in it's ability to switch from sloop to uni-rig to spi.
There is absolutely, positively NOTHING unique about the design of any f16 which makes it anymore "versatile" than any other similar boat.
You can leave the spi off ANY boat and sail it.
You can Uni-rig ANY boat and sail it.

Even Bill Roberts has conceded that his designs can be sailed with or without jib or spi.

Hello Sam,

You're absolutely right. The Taipan certainly is not unique in its [note it's is a contraction of "it is"; the possessive pronoun is "its"] ability to be sailed uni or sloop. What is unique, though, is that the Taipan 4.9 has official classes with each configuration. Both classes are quite active in Australia, and champions in the cat rigged class include the likes of Glenn Ashby.

The F16 class also offers the two distinct "official" classes. The F16 class is, as you know, small and dispersed at this point, so having the two official configurations is more of a conceptual benefit. Last weekend 5 Taipans sailed uni w/spin--first F16 uni regatta in the US. In a couple weeks, two F16 unis will do likewise out West. Obviously these are tiny numbers in the grand sailing world.

There are a lot of great boats out there. The formula concept, as you may know, aims to gather rather than disperse cat sailors. It is not dependent on a single manufacturer but on sailors who enjoy boats in a certain size and performance range. Those of us with F16 compliant boats would be delighted to sail with similar size and performance boats (eg Fx-1, I17R, or even H17 w/spin). While these boats may be longer and have bigger rigs, all the F16 owners I've talked to would be happy to race these boats on a "first over wins" basis. As you have more experience sailing than me, you'd probably beat me on your H17. But we'd have a fun time in the process and enjoy the challenge. That's what it's about for me.

So you make a good point about the sloop/uni issue. (And I don't think we need to get into the physics of center of effort/resistance here.) I certainly wouldn't perpetuate the myth you mention. But the reality is that few classes (large or small) offer "official" one-up or two-up configurations based on the same platform. If this concept does not appeal to you then the class may not be as compelling for you.

Best Regards,

One can sail 40 ft cats and even 60 ft mono's singlehandedly or without a jib (solo around the world records), but I wouldn't want to put these singlehanded on a trailor or step their masts singlehandedly.

There is indeed nothing unique about the Taipans or F16; they are just better suited to this particular double role because of several aspects like lightweight and relatively small sail area's.

For the remainder I fully agree with Eric. Bring your FX-one and I-17, H17 , etc and come race us first in wins. We will welcome you just as we have welcomed brobu on his I-17 and helped him to get the last bit of 10 % speed out his I-17 Euro.

Inclusiveness is the key word ; and buyers choice is the way.

Wouter

We have a guy sailing his A in our club race series. (21 races in 2004 with on average 14 boats per race; sometimes 10 sometimes 23). We do get some nasty chop sometimes as the North sea in quite shallow (max depth = 33 to 50 foot) and I very muich expected him to suffer in the more extreme conditions. However this guy is succesful in the heavy stuff and short high chop as well. When he sails he typically scores 1st and 2nd's with a very rare 3rd. Maybe lightweight boats do suffer in these choppy conditions but it may well be much less significant than it is sometimes maked out to be.

One ting is for sure the A-cat can handle it (Same story in several races this year over here) ; also clear from the A-cat worlds video clip form the 2004 New Zealand worlds. This is independent of the overall speed in these conditions although this seems to be good just the same.

Wouter

Bob,

I think you would like the "Round the Island" race on your A boat, but you may want to rig a small spinnaker. Last year about the only up wind we had was from Ft. Walton to Destin. The rest was downwind with some broad reaching depending where you were on the course and the time. This year, I am planning on running all three sails again. Last year, I was still worrying about my mast which I have broken before in a high wind gust with loose main sheet. This year, I will allow a lot more twist in my main sail on the downwind if the winds are as reasonable as last year.

As for the cracks on the I17R speed, I believe we have a high level of competition here in the Pensacola/Ft. Walton beach area. To compare my I17R's speed to one other fellow that happens to sail an I-17 normal probably isn't the best way to go about it. The I17R is much more powerful (and lighter)than the I17 normal, plus here in Pensacola we routinely have anywhere from 20 to 30 boats on the starting line..

The start can make or break you. I know since I only had 2 decent starts in Mid-Winters. Actually, 3 but I blew the lead I had on the other two I17R's in the last race and almost flipped the boat 2X.

I certainly wish we lived closer together!

Tom

I think the fragility issue may be born of the fact that some hulls are easily dented. The easily made dings and wow's give the impression that the hulls are not strong enough to be slapped around or even pushed up the beach. If the hull can be deformed easily with the palm of your hand it does make one wonder. When I went shopping for a cat I was disappointed in the extra care that has to be taken with most of today's hulls.

I'm considering an A cat as a second boat. For cost reasons alone, I'm only considering wooden boats.

Do you have any knowledge of these, wooden, boats?

Thanks.

Hey Vicatman,

I have raced against the FX-1 before and won! Have you raced your boat with a spinnaker? Have you raced against an I17R? It's not quite as easy as just sailing with the main alone. A one-legged man in an butt kicking contest has more time to relax than a unisailor with a spinnaker up. We are running somewhere in the neighborhood of 350 sq. ft. of sail and that's when we are not using the jib! My earlier point was that the I17R would do better in the waves and gusts than the FX-1 or Taipan because of the bigger bows. Plus, I think the weight is a plus in those type conditions.

Tom

he said, she said... blah!

refer to PN numbers.

Well, PN number's help but you would probably get some argument there. Me saying I beat an FX-1 doesn't mean much either though. I just wanted to let the guy know that I had been on the course with one. About the only way to get a close estimate between the FX-1(1 up with Spin), I17R, and Taipan (1 up with spin)would be to let those boats race together for a season or two with skippers having relatively the same skill. Then maybe we could see which boat would be more suited to which conditions.

Tom

Thomm....I still disagree...I have sailed my FX in big waves here in the caribbean with no problem other than last years regatta here when it was blowing 25 and 6-8ft sea...I have races against a I-17 with very good sucess,,then I have to, I have a faster rating than the I-17....I have not put a kite on yet looking at that this summer...Im still not quite back to full strength...after an emergency surgery last month...the FX cuts right through the waves with great ease...so Im not concerned about that with a kite...the one-legged man part is the rub there...but as in all sailing its a learning curve...and being able to sail all year round I will have plenty of time to get the hang of it

Vicatman,

Well, it sounds like you like the boat you have. I don't know where your I-17 driver would rate. So, I can't really judge from that.

Anyway, all opinions aside, you will probably really enjoy the spinnaker. Most of the I17R guys that I race with are using a spinlock block for the spinnaker halyard and rachamatic blocks(4) for the spinnaker sheet. We also bungee the spinnaker sheet and halyard separately to the rear beam to restore some type of order to the boat. Many of us have also installed a cam cleat to the aft of the daggerboard well to lock-in the spin sheet say on a distance race or if we want to trap out and control with traveller only.

Just my 2 cents worth on the spinnaker set-up. I gotta at least talk sailing since the next race is until April 3-4.

Tom

Hi Guys
There is a race in the North called Cat Fight. They have a start for all single handed boats, scoring is base on portsmouth numbers. last year winner was a Nacra 5.5, but
check CRAM site for official results & boats.

Well, I guess if you are looking for a boat you can single hand that also has performance, maybe PN's would be the way to go. Let's take a look......

I17R 67
Taipan 4.9/F16 uni(1 up) spin 67.6
NACRA 5.5 uni 69.8
FX-1 71.2


Tom

I17R #124

lets also look at :
FX-One sail area 160 sq ft
I-17r sail area 176 sq ft and carbon mast
5.5 uni sail area 175 sq ft
so the numbers dont tell everything

I think the A Class fragility myth is due to the class' rules regarding no minimum weight years ago..... Cannot remember when the introduced min weight.

Since the introduction of min weight, the A Class has moved on to become one of the finest constructed boats in the world. Gone are the days off one regatta A Class'.

We have quiet a few A Class cats in our club which include Mark IV and V Boyers and Flyers. We have past and present A Class greats in our class such as Steve Brewin, Bruce McArthur and veteran John Goodier. We also regularly see the likes of Glenn Ashbey, Scott Anderson, Dave Brewer and Brad Collett.

These guys put their boats through conditions that send other boats back to shore and have keeped Tornados on their toes.

I have also seen A Class race on Port Phillip Bay, Melbourne, Australia. This place is notorious for its large steep chop and strong wind.

I think the issue with their sea worthiness in waves as with all boats is the nut on the tiller and his skills steering over and down the waves.

These boats do not deserve the title fragile as the platforms are very stiff and reliable...... more so than many other classes.

As for the speed argument between the I17R, FX-1, F-16. I have never seen and FX-1 or I17R in OZ but I am sure all the owners love their boat and consider them quiet quick.

If for example you have a fleet of FX-1s in your club and have great racing.... would you realy care if an I17R is quicker????

What else are you going to do with the extra minute or so less spent on the race course........ Oh thats right get to the bar........ I'll just jump on my Tornado now and see you there

Hey Stephen,

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said " if you have a fleet of FX-1's." I can add or a " fleet of I17R's. We are trying to get more boats in our fleets. Well, that's why I am talking up the I17R anyway. We had five in the Pensacola area but one of the guys is selling his for the unbelieveably low price of $7,000.00 (he is buying a house or something)

Hey Vicatman,

There's your chance. Get it while you can. If you are over 200 pounds the I17R would be perfect for you! Then you could get ole Bruce to get an R also!!

Tom

ps. That I17R is for sale on the Catsailor Classifieds!

Where can I find the website for the I-17?

www.performancecat.com It's called the Nacra 17 now.

Hey Jake,

I took my NACRA 6.0 out late last year for a sail. (I was going to sail it for the " Round the Island " race but my son/crew couldn't make it)It drove like a truck as compared to my I17. The rudders are really loose. Have you changed anything on your rudders to get rid of the slop. Part of the problem was that I had way too much mast rake. I was trying to depower it some, but I will have to do it another way. I cannot stand that much weather helm. The I17 is about neutral. By the way, anyone have a spinnaker pole and spinnaker for sale for a NACRA 6.0

Tom

Actually yes I have. When I bought the boat, the rudder pivots had already been re-drilled to establish more forward rake (less helm) for spinnaker. After I got it and was disgusted with the amount of slop in the rudders, I bored out the castings, inserted nylon bushings, and replaced the rudder arm/crossbar unions with the rubber joints like the Bimare F18HTs. I am proud to say that I have practically no slop in my rudder system now (although I have to wrestle with the hotstick to get it to extend since rotation of the cross bar is no longer limited). The boat sails very neutral upwind with forward weight placement.

Having steered the I20 in comparison (I imagine the I17 is similar), I agree that the 6.0 is a much 'heavier handed' boat in that the I20 felt 'twitchy'. I felt in control on both of them but the I20 is much more susceptible to driver error and demands proper main sheet etiquette during tacking. It's close but I still prefer my 6.0.

Well, I hope I don't have to redrill the pivot hole. I hope I can just add the bushings or something.

I am looking forward to following the Tybee 500 this year. I want to see how the 6.0's do. I understand that there are some rather good 6.0 drivers going this year.

Also, the Performance Nationals will be in Tybee this year. Does that mean we will be racing in the Atlantic or some inside area?

Tom

well after the surgery Im down to a slim tril 220..lol...

The guy that finished 2nd in the I17R Nationals last year was about 220. I believe he was like 1 or 2 points from 1st. Came down to the last race.

theres really no "inside" area around tybee where a deep draft boat will be able to sail. More than likely you'll be sailing right off the beach from 18th street out past the breakers.

Tom,

Unless you plan on adding a spinnaker, you shouldn't have to redrill the rudder pivots. If you decide to do so anyway, let me know and I will measure mine.

Improper rudder alignment can give you a lot of helm too - make sure the rudders are even or toe'd in ever so slightly.

Jake,

I probably will add a spinnaker sometime. It may be one of the old large ones though................specifically for a light wind RTI. It all depends on when I find a pole. I am in no rush. I am going to use the I17R for RTI this year. My son will be sailing the 6.0 for fun this summer is all. If he does the race, it will have to be with just main and jib.

I totally redid the boat last year to sell it, then he wanted to use it. New tramp, rigging, righting line, trap wires, even the lines on the rudders and traps. New mast base (cracked the little wing piece off the old one). New rotator, the old one was broken in the middle there. 2nd Sail number is 335; used about 12 times.

Tom

Tom,

Has the rudder rake adjusment screw been removed from the bottom of the rudder castings?

Chris,

Yes, I removed them last year. I think it my have been a mistake though. Adds to the slop maybe or it may just be that I am not used to the 6.0. Either way, the mast is coming up some. There is just too much weather helm. Or as another guy said I could redrill.

Tom

PS. To clarify a bit, I want to fix both the large amount of weather helm and the slop in the rudders. When I raced the 6.0, it was like 3 or 4 times a year. Since I bought the I17R, I have been racing like 20 times per year at least. I want to " fix up " the 6.0 now that I know a bit more and maybe do a distance race every now and then. The 6.0 can definitely blast through a wave that would hammer the I17!

Tom

Well

I have to say it was a tough decision. I opted for the Tiger.

I understand all of the thoughts and appreciate their contribution. I supect this thread and others like it will be read with enthisiasm, because all of us go through a stage like this sometimes.

Once again thanks!

Congradulations,,, Frozen,,

Hope we will see you sailing it at the NA F18cc's,,, in QC, in July. Check www.naf18.com for details.

enjoy,,

Al

I think I may volunteer to help there.

Al