ISAF maintains Hobie 16 as the ISAF Youth boat

From the www.hobieclass.com website:

ISAF have maintained the Hobie 16 as the ISAF Youth boat

The ISAF Council have again approved the Hobie 16 with spinnaker as the ISAF Youth Multihull to be used at the ISAF Youth World Championships. ISAF did add another boat to the multihull discipline (the organisers are allowed the choice of two manufacturers in the disciplines) but as yet it can not meet the ISAF Regulations so it can not be considered for ISAF Youth Worlds.

SO THE HOBIE 16 WITH SPINNAKER REMAINS THE ONLY BOAT THAT CAN BE USED AT THE ISAF YOUTH WORLDS.

Hi all,

all the feed back I get from Hobie 16 sailors that have used kite, or are forced to use kite by sailing youth class, is that they don't like it and struggle to perform as well as Hobie 16 without kite. The problem seems to be a inability to build apparent wind downwind.

So my question is, if as a youth class the Hobie 16 is supposed to be a introduction to spin. cat sailing, why does it seem to be putting young sailors off spinnaker cat sailing? And if I am wrong why doesn't the Hobie 16 with spinnaker get sailed in mixed regattas?

I wouldn't leave the spinnaker off my boat if you paid me, it is just too much fun. But the Hobie 16 in OZ don't want to use them unless they have to at a youth event.

Now some of you will know I sail a home made F16, but I am not trying to put other boats down here, please believe me that is not my purpose. I want to see everybody sailing cats of whatever sort they like, but I do want to see them enjoying spinnaker sailing.

So am I missing something? Is the feed back from these sailors wrong, some top adults as well as youth. I should say I haven't sailed one with spin. myself. So whats going on.

Regards Gary.

Gary,
Many people have sailed Hobie 16s most of their lives. The boat still has timeless appeal due to its simplicity and big class following. Most feel that adding a spi will destroy the open class. The boat is fine and the real buzz is racing a in a good sized fleet.
Spinnaker boats need strong crews. You can race a standard Hobie 16 competitively with your kids (many do).
I love racing my Tiger but I enjoy just as much, sailing on a Hobie 16 with my daughter, especially when the breeze is up!
Youth who sail Hobie 16s love them with or without a kite. It is a handful in strong breeze.
ISAF dictated that Youth must use a spinnaker. Not everyone agrees.
I think many Hobie sailors see it this way.(thank goodness)

<******** ! Tell that to my 58 kg female crew ! The women is also only 1.62 mtr tall = 5 foot 5 inch. If she can do it then any teenager can do it. It is all in having the proper sheeting system, something I have not seen on the H16's yet because of their OD fetishm. But that problem is wholely OD in cause it has nothing to do with the spinnaker itself.

Point 2 : We are talking YOUTH class here, NOT parents and KIDS class. These youths are between 12 and 21 and outrun my sorry 32-year-old butt in any trackrace and who seem to have endless energy and do a score of muscle sports like gymnastics and competition swimming.

Also, If you can pull on a mainsheet in 20 knots wind then you can also pull on a spinnaker sheet.

Besides I see kids below 12 years of age pull spinnakers on baots like the 20-er, 420's and Hobie Dragoons. Are you telling me that suddenly after they turn 12 they can't hold on to a spi anymore !





Yes, but this youth class thing is not about you or any other parent nor is it about any (young) kids either. It isn't even about some recreational sailing. It is about competitive teenagers who will have to go through a feeder class that will prepare them for the big classes that they will enter after 18 or 21. Meaning : F18's, olympic Tornado's, maybe the big French cats and tris. That is a whole different ball game.





If they love the H16 with kite than what is the problem here ? The old generation of H16 sailors who are married to their H16 and who often treat other designs as intruders or undesireables.




This sounds like a good reason to NOT have the H16 as the youth boat. So what is your point. You can't seriously claim that all newer designs are worse than the H16 in this respect. Because then you really needs to get some test rides on non _h16's





Any why do you think that ISAF demanded a Spinnaker ? Just to annoy the hell out of you H16 guys ?

And why on earth was the H16 with spi entered and promoted as the new ISAF youth boat when none of you hobie sailors really want it ?

Get with the program guys or stay out of these affairs and be happy in your own H16 niche. Nobody has forced you to enter the H16 spi as a youth boat !

So ISAF didn't dictate the use of a spinnaker. It recognised that the youth class needed one if it was to properly prepare the youth for the follow-up classes. And for every H16 racer who doesnt agree with this I can name other 10 racers who do. ! Thank Goodness !

And this is one reason why I was looking forward to giving the H16 the boot as the perferred youth boat. You always have the tip-toe around dogmatic H16 sailors who really don't want anything else than 1970's-one-size-fits-all H16 OD racing.

And ISAF once again showed us to be lacking a spine.

Wouter

ISAF needed a youth boat with numbers and reasonable value that is accessible to the masses around the World. They also wanted boats provided at the Worlds events. Hobie Cat France has been doing just that for years. If another company or design class steps up and can provide a replacement that is desirable and available... I am sure ISAF may change the selected boat. So far that has not happened.

Whether the 16 has a spinnaker or not within the Hobie Class... is a Hobie Class decision. The Hobie Class Association is feeling a bit like the tail is wagging the dog here. The Hobie Class (as voted at the AGM in South Africa) does not want a spinnaker on Hobie 16s at major Worlds events. The North American Class Association does not want them at any Hobie events on a 16. We see it as short circuiting our programs and advancement through the class racing. We want to keep the 16 class healthy and as designed... simple. The Hobie Class goal should be to get youth to enter the Hobie Class and that is best done through the Hobie 16. We currently have a very strong youth class and want to keep it that way.

Simply, what is needed by ISAF does not have to be adopted by the Hobie Class.

A report dated 19-Nov-05 indicates that the ISAF has selected the SL16 as the Youth Multihull. Follow the links:
http://www.ussailing.org/championships/youth/multihull/
It is an Adobe document, so I couldn't cut and paste it into the note.

I wanted to sail all my life, but my parents were not interested. So I had to wait until I finished grad school and got a job to buy a boat. I got to say, anyone 12-21 who gets to race in international events is lucky. I would have done anything just to have a boat with a sail.

It seems like youth skippers would probably just use their parent’s boats, so whatever the most popular boat with a spinnaker is the boat that should be used.

As much as I resent the hobie class association, in America the tiger is #2 and if I had one I wouldn’t let my kid drive it.

Matt

The text of the ISAF bulletin includes...

>>Multihull Open – Hobie 16 with spinnaker or Sirena SL 16

Current Position:

The Hobie 16 is currently the only Equipment that can be used in the Multihull Open
discipline.<<

The Hobie 16 is already selected for the 2006 and 2007 World events, so it is far in the future before the SL16 actually gets used.

Nice Boat, It would be cool to have about 5-10 of those around for Match Racing.

So which is it though, H16 or SL16 as the boat?? I am confused...

Hobie 16 for a couple more years.

The SL16 is not available in sufficient numbers as yet. After that, it is one of the two boats available. I understand it is up to each race organizer after that. I think that means if a builder agrees to provide boats for an event that the builders boat would then be selected for use.

The group promoting the SL16 has basically been given 2 years to prove their claims made in their press release.

The ISAF Youth Championships must be held in a ISAF Recognized or International Class. The SL16 is not an ISAF Recognized nor International Class. The Hobie 16 is an ISAF International Class. Therefore, the SL16 cannot be used for the ISAF Youth Championships at this time.

The requirements for becoming an ISAF Recognized / International Class are here.

The SL16 does not have the numbers nor the geographic distribution to qualify yet, so even though it has been recommended as the "equipment of choice", it cannot be used until it meets the additional hurdle of becoming an ISAF class.

(When was the last time Booth, Ashby, Bundock, Hagara, Ogletree, Smyth, .... raced a H16; if they ever did")

Bundocks was 5th at the Aust.16 nationals in 2005.
"YOU ASKED"

Matt Miller,

This is a good time for me to underline that I assign a whole lot of blame to the ISAF organisation. That is to pre-empt any "he hates hobies" nomer. Because, I don't. They may not be my favourite boat but I never hated them nor would I quickly decline any invitation to sail one.

Maybe I'm most pissed about the fact that the big whigs out there are again making a big mess of things.

I really don't think that having a youth boat (with spi) coming from a very dominant spi-less class that is also actively opposed to the spi, is a good thing. It is like putting two horses that hate eachother in a span together. A thing like that is really not going to work. And I for one really don't appreciate putting these youngling through the raw politics that come with such a situation. To which, sadly, indeed I'm also partial.

So I don't think the following advantages of the H16 are convincing enough in the bigger picture:







Personally I think the responsibility of this situation is totally misunderstood by many people and especially the ISAF whigs. Call me naive but wasn't ISAF (or IRYU) foundated to actually organise, arrange and build such projects that would otherwise not come to be ? What else are we all paying our dues for ? Why else have an organisation like ISAF at all ? Quick to ban sailors participating in unrecognised events like the Hobie Wave sailors but nobobies is home when the going gets tough !

Seems to me that the ISAF organisation is giving herself an easy ride.

Anybody noticed how many developments were initiated and grown outside of ISAF tutilage ? The whole skiff scene, F18, ORMA and even Hobie 16 was outside of ISAF (IRYU) for many years.

While I'm happy that they are trying to get a good youth class for catamarans together, I also feel that some boss needs to call them in to his office and tell then to do it again and this time properly.

If nobody does anything then we shouldn't be surprised that we'll keep circling around in the same situation for many years to come with our youth sailors footing the bill.





Excuse for not feeling much sympathy. Who exactly entered the H16/spi as the youth boat here ? Apparently not the Hobie class. Neither did I or any other non-hobie sailor. And I seriously doubt that ISAF forced the Hobie corp into entering it with a "or else ...". So tell me who exactly made the decision to enter this boat and what was the vision behind it ? If it was not the Hobie class organisation then why wasn't the guy or group who actually did enter it not leveling this development with the Hobie class ? Or even doing such a thing AGAINST the judgement and wished of the Hobie class ? Had this group even the right to enter this boat on behalve of the H16 class ?





So why was the H16 entered as the youth boat with spi ? This youth boat appears to be lacking a home. Nobody wants it, certainly not the main H16 body. Not even the truly competive youths want it as they often can't wait to get into the F18 or Tornado class and really get serious.

In all honesty here, I actually agree that H16 should stay true to its base and continue like that. But I also see that there is a rather high probability here that the current setup will only have negative effects on both the H16 class as the youth class.





In that case I think ISAF should recognize the music and seperate the ISAF youth class from the H16 class. Seems like the best setup for all. And if nobody wants to give away boats to ISAF (what a surprise !) then some whig should shift their butts into gear and work over their old-boys network for some corporate sponsorship.

Hell if Mitch Booth and Herbert Dercksen can haggle Volvo for a complete full-blow extreme 40 mini cirquit with 6 races in nearly as many continents then surely some company out there can donate enough money for 10 youth boats to be used annually in a round robin championship ?

Hell, ship these youngster a week extra to the site and let them practise on the boats for a week before starting the event. They can learn the trick on daddies boat and fine tune their skills in the practice week.

Surely, we can get such projects of the ground ?





That is true. But this really sounds like a the receipy for a truly bad marriage where it is the kids that truly suffer.

Do we want that ?

Wouter

I know the ISAF rules for becomming an official recognized class and I don't believe the SL16 group has a chance of meeting these requirements.

But then again, ISAF reserves the right to recognized a class even when the requirements are not met when pressing reasons compel it to do so.

I wonder why they haven't opted for this route yet.

But then again, I also wondered why they really wanted a complete new design to begin with. And then expect it to miraculously grow into a recognised class (unaided) within 3 years.

Some guys are in dream land.

I think it is time now for me downer pills


Wouter

Mitch Booth finished second at the 2002 Hobie 16 Worlds in New Calidonia.

Randy Smyth finished 13th at the 1999 Hobie 16 North Americans.

So where do the North American youth go to sail the NA Champioships on the KL15.5,SL16 and Nacra 500? I continue to hear about people being upset with Hobie and HCA, which are certainly linked, but are not one in the same. The HCA continues to do as much each year for Youth sailing as anyone. The Hobie 16 continues to bring in more youth and novice sailors than any other boat in N.A. Not all youth sailing is geared toward creating olympians. The idea, in my mind, is to introduce kids to a sport of a lifetime that promotes competition and a great lifestyle. Maybe the people that select the boat understand this and don't live in a time machine.

This issue was generated by ISAF wanting something for the multihull Worlds that is unavailable. This really had nothing to do with the Hobie Class Association. This was a deal for provided boats and Hobie Cat France responded to the request which left us all with the conflict.

To me... there was a simple solution: Have the youth sail the ISAF Worlds on Hobie 16s (class legal). At least until there is an actual class using spinnaker available.

There are many good things about this idea... no class conflict. Plenty of training and developement sailing / racing available. Plenty of properly equiped boats available worldwide. As it is... we have one spinnaker kit available for youth to train on in the US and no actual racing.

At least all of the youth are in the same "boat" on this. No one has a huge advantage by having the race sailed on their class's boat.

Hagara has won the Eropean 16 nationals multiple times

I think everyone is look at a very complex situation and trying to make it simple. The facts are the ISAF Youth Worlds is not Class racing. It is designed for National Authorities to send their best youth sailor (only one per country) in an Olympic discipline for practice and get used to international elite competition. If you look at the equipment chosen it reflects the Olympic equipment. ISAF have chosen the Laser, Laser Radial, 420 (smaller version of the Olympic 470) and now radically even though it not yet available world wide the Neil Pryde RS:X . For very obvious reason ISAF Could not select the Tornado as a youth discipline. As the Hobie 16 was already the ISAF Youth multihull equipment, then it was obvious that ISAF would choose a Hobie 16 with spin as the youth equipment.

The idea is to get youth out of other sports and computer games and into sailing and catamarans. What is the most popular multihull and available in every country? The Hobie 16. Is it the best boat in the world? No, but neither is the Laser or the 420, but they are available. Is it the SL 16 the best boat in the world? No it is not, the youth at the evaluations did not like the boat.

Matt Miller is incorrect with his statement the Hobie 16 with spi will be around for a few more years. The Hobie 16 with spi is in the ISAF Regulations and there is no move to remove the boat. All they have done is add another boat to give the organisers the choice of manufacturers to supply the boats to their event. They have done the same for the Laser Radial (or Byte) and the 420 (or the 29er).

The big question must be why the SL16 which has no numbers world wide is going to get the ISAF Regulation changed so they can be accepted. At present while they are on the equipment list they can not be chosen as they are not a Recognised Class a requirment in the ISAF Regulations.

The youth at the evaluation trails did not support the SL16 as one of the top 3 boats. Why was it chosen? Is it because the chairman of the evaluation trials is French and the trial were held at the French training facilities and they chose a French boat?

So don’t argue about the Hobie 16 with spi ask yourself what are YOU doing to get youth sailing going in your area.

(So don’t argue about the Hobie 16 with spi ask yourself what are YOU doing to get youth sailing going in your area.)


Great point.On that note I see where the IHCA has appointed a new Youth co-ordinator.Brian Phipps,seems like a great choice.

Wouter does this guy on a 16 look familiar

Not to be picky, but isn't that what I said? I said:

"Hobie 16 for a couple more years. The SL16 is not available in sufficient numbers as yet. After that, it is one of the two boats available."

It sounds to me that he believes the Hobie 16 will be the boat for many years and not just a few. So who's the guy in the picture?

Bundock

WOW I BET THAT GUY KICKS TOTAL BUTT ON THE WATER BECAUSE THIS ONE TIME....

..
..
..

HE SAILED A HOBIE 16!


You people are sounding ridiculous really.

"so and so is better because he sailed a H16 in his younger years"

"I can name four hundred and thirty two sailors that have won first places in regattas and never sailed a H16"

I think I'm going into Kidney failure.

I think you missed the point Maugan.Just having some fun with Wouter from a previous post.

Wow Wooter, Very impressive! I assume you were replying to my post not "Gary's"

My comments attempted to answer Gary's question "What am I missing here?" I offered the seasoned sailor's viewpoint about why all hobie 16s don't carry spinnakers- That is what I know.

The real problem here, as I see it, is that someone is trying to provide something that suits the whole world and that is impossible! Someone will always come up with a reason why the solution is crap.

Perhaps the answer is for Wouter Yachting to provide a fleet of F16s for the ISAF youth worlds. That oughta fix it......!

In my state, the Hobie Cat Association has independently set up a scheme to financially assist youth into Hobie 16 racing. Dedicated Hobie sailors have offered to coach them.

This christmas, I am taking a few days off to support a group of youth Hobie 16 sailors from my club at the national youth selection trials for the ISAF youth worlds, sailing the current youth boat - Hobie 16 with spinnaker.

Wouter, I'm doing my bit for youth catamaran sailing.....

are you?

Don't hold your breath waiting for the Yachting organisations to promote our sport. We can't even watch Olympic sailing on television!!! The most promotion of sailing that I see, is provided by one-design builders.

I'll bet you that the Hobie 16 is alive and kicking long after many of the current trendy designs are dead and buried!!!

Finally, spinnaker sailing is great fun but its not all there is.

By the way Wouter, just because the Hobie 16 is the selected youth class, doesn't mean that the whole promotion of youth multihull sailing is up to Hobie. How about you getting behind youth multihull sailing and encouraging kids to sail Hobie Cat 16s with spinnakers if you are so passionate about it? It is not just Hobie's responsibility.

So why is it that a youth boat must have a spinnaker?

The Hobie 16 makes a terrific youth boat - there are tons of them available and active. Practice and competition can be had on every lake and ocean. I don't see why we have to bastardize it by adding a spinnaker to a platform that was never designed for it (and a class that won't support it). Are we afraid that the kids might get bored with a main and jib? Let's not get too confused here - there are a few of us (and the bureaucracy) that gets bored with main and jib but even then, there is light years of information we would have to obtain to master sailing a 'simple' boat like the H16.

What have you been smoking??? It might explain your kidney problem. Nobody has said anything of the sort.

TigerMike

If this thread weren't so indicative of how fragmented a section of the sailing public we catsailors are and how self-destructive we seem to be, it would be amusing.

Catsailing is generally acknowledged to be in decline (despite the introduction of new designs and event formats), sailing in general is also in decline, worldwide, clubs are struggling to find members, events are increasingly poorly supported. We sail some of the fastest, most exciting boats on this planet and rather than band together and shout about how great it is and encourage new sailors - we gripe amongst ourselves, compare who's got the biggest d**ks, sails, spinnakers or whatever and put people off becoming part of this madhouse.

For Ch***'s sake give it a rest!

So ISAF has chosen the H16 again, so what! How about each National Authority fitting out 6 or so H16's with kites so that the kids can get some racing? How about some of the Cat Assocs. in each country getting together and doing some fundraising solely to promote the sport to youth sailors?

In the UK the Assocs have joined forces to set out their stall at the annual Dinghy Show in London in March each year. At last years show the stand had boats from Swell(2), Dart(2), Hobie(1), Tornado(1), Shearwater(1), Nacra (2) and I think a couple of others. Most importantly, there were reps from the Cat Clinic where the youth training is held and any young visitors to the stand were entered into a draw to get a 'multihull experience weekend' at the Cat Clinic. In addition they were taking bookings for kids to pay to get that same weekends sailing. There was also a charter scheme aimed at suitable youth sailors.

It may not have been the answer to everything but it's a start - it's where many of you - us - should be devoting our time and effort.

We can never beat ISAF or unduly influence them, we have to work with them if multihull sailing is to get the recognition and support it deserves, so why don't we do it wholeheartedly?

Hi all,

thanks for the reply Mal. Didn't want to start world cat wars, should have known better I suppose.

I was realy hoping somebody would tell me about a positive experience of sailing a Hobie 16 with spinnaker, but it looks like the feedback I have had is correct as nobody came up with anything to do with the enjoyment of our elite youth. This is no reflection on the boat without spinnaker, I have heard many say they enjoy the Hobie 16 without spinnaker and in the Northern states of OZ the numbers are on the water.

I just dream of seeing elite youth, rigging a hot looking spinnaker cat that they can lift the mast on and has controlable sail area for them when the wind is up, but would still give them the sort of apparent wind sailing thrills , that only a hot looking sailboard or 29er offers as a youth class at the moment .

These classes are out there but I guess as long as the ISAF wants to take the easy way out and get manafacturers to bank roll things. The elite youth are stuck with a package that doesn't realy teach them the sort of apparent wind sailing that will help them with the next step, on to the Olympic Tornado.

As for doing our part, as individuals in promoting cat sailing to youth, all we can do is continue to be happy to field the plethora of questions as they drool over our boats while we are rigging and continue to offer to take them sailing as I know many of us do and of course take our own kids out as our fathers did.

Regards Gary.

I see that the posters are focussing on my perceived inaction to discredit my other points.

Lets me assure you that I do both support and refer people to the Dutch youth sailing initiative. In the past I have actually setup up a youth program on beach cats myself and with a friend I arrange sponsorship by an IT company that we used to buy and maintain the boats. Youth and students could become members for only 250 US$ and use the boats. Sadly this project died after I left the program.

So in summary I think that I've earned my right to comment on these matters and I think you are totally silly to assume that I didn't do anything in this field. I'm not telling everything I do on thsi forum.

Wouter

Not true in the UK and a fair number of other countries I'd bet. IIRC we needed to IMPORT new 16's from France into the UK so that the squad could have boats to sail - A couple of the guys I know hated sailing the 16 and as soon as they could they moved up to the F18 and they are doing quite well ! They feel that the 16 held them back rig development, rig tuning and general sailing skills, only plus point was big fleet racing.

I don't want to end in a down beat way. So maybe there needs to be a selection of boats with a kite that can be used as qualifier boats. Then something that is then provided FOC by the ISAF for the events. Maybe The Spitfire/F18/F16 which have been designed to have a kite, the kids want to sail and is fun and a challenge to sail and not a challenge to stop pitchpoling.

Have to agree with Scooby here, in SA we have to import french H16`s, they are NOT affordable boats in light of the currency difference. New H16 retails for the price of an entry-level car. To say that lots of them are available is like saying you can buy a used Formula 1 car from 1979 and compete internationally. NOT. You won`t find that the top US teams that just sailed H16 WOrlds were training on boats with brightly coloured sails, aah, the 70`s were so cool. (NOT, again.)
Guys, stop bickering, we are all catsailors. ISAF has criteria which ONLY Hobie can satisfy from a financial perspective. This is unfortunate, but the truth, and is testimony to the Hobie`s marketing strategy, which NO-ONE else has been able to replicate. If competitors had to bring their own boats it would make events totally unaffordable, especially for youth.
If the purpose of ISAF youth Worlds is as a feeder class to the Tornado (current Olympic class), they wouldn`t be able to find a better boat than the Mosquito if they tried, but of course this is a class run by amateurs and has no capacity to produce 100 boats to be used at a Worlds. While some opinions state that the spinnaker is too much for youth sailors, here`s a thought :
Miles Webb & Darren vd Merwe - age 16, 2nd at Mosquito Nationals, 1st at the Triple Crown (beating Sean Ferry, Blaine Dodds and all other pre-H16 Worlds sailors) on line and Handicap(Mosquito gives H16 time). So is the kite too much for them?
From the regatta report : "With 6 of the 7 teams representing South Africa in the upcoming Hobie 16 Worlds sailing here today the competition was tough and I saw William and Lucinda Edwards beating Shaun Ferry and Michelle Le Sueur by about 1 meter, this after more than 2 hours of racing. Young Miles Webb and Darren vd Merwe made the most of the flat conditions on the downwind side of the course. Winning this regatta by more than 3 minutes after the handicap was applied is a very noteworthy occurrence. "

Here`s a real eye-opener : Daniel Snyman is 12. He sails Mosquito WITH SPI SINGLE-HANDED . Sure, he runs into trouble at 15knots, but the more he perseveres the less he will struggle, and when it`s less than 15knots he is quick enough to hassle the mid-fleet and surprise the front-runners sometimes.
I think the mindset of the spinnaker being unmanageable comes from a select group of One-minded, one-class sailors who`se boat was not designed to carry a spinnaker and is just not up to it from a bouyancy placement viewpoint. Hobie only added the kite to keep their foot in with ISAF Youth events, which once again, is good marketing.
I wish the rest of us were capable of learning something.
Last comment : Miles & Darren look to be having a whole lot of fun while the H16 they just flew past is just doing time downwind.

Hang on I missed something here about the kite being too much for the kids.......

Why has the 29er got a kite then ?

Why has the 420 get a kite then ?

If you are saying the kids cannot cope with the sheet why loads did we have a couple of 14 and 15 year olds sailing Hobie 16's because they had to, what were others sailing Spitfires because they wanted to. And why is one of them now sailing a Tornado because he can?

And if the sheet loads are too much, why were kids sailing 16 foot cats (the old Condor) 22 years ago (Andy Webb) at 15, and the Dart 18 25 years ago at 12 (me helming) and the Dart 20(Stampede), 21 years ago at 16 (me again, helming). Do the kids a litte justice, they can cope with the sheet loads just fine.

I have had a 16 years old boy crew for me on the Tornado. As long as he could use his legs for sheeting main or spi, he would do fine for a day of racing, he was small for a 16 years old at the time. Handling the boat on land was a bit heavier, and we had to experiment a bit before we could right it in light winds.

I think the Mittelmeiers was around 15-16 when they started racing the Tornado. They was a bit light for heavy wind at the time, but very fast in lightish winds.
The sheet loads isn't the issue. It's an economical and political question. As long as ISAF doesn't take more initative and follow up on it's own selection of the SL16, it will be the Hobie16 with spi we will see.

How large is the SL16 class? I see that a new SL16 costs around EUR10.000,-

Got to agree with Steve, they should have chosen a design with the features of the Mosquito, where homebuilding and affordability are strong points. But plywood would probably not cut it, as I seem to remember that one of the criteria for the selected boat was that it should be able to be sailed in a game of "bumper boats".. (what's the materials in the SL16 hulls?)

The price thing is all madness anyway as the least time we had the 420's at our club I was talking to a couple of them (they wanted to know about sailing a cat single handed with a kite ) and I wanted to know how long 420's lasted as they did not last long when I was a lad.

"oh, they are lasting a little longer these days, we change the boat every 9 to 12 months depending on how many wild regatta's we have"

Bonkers !

my college sailing club has been using the same JY 15's now for 15 YEARS

and yes, there are only 2 left out of the original 6

Personally I think the ISAF youth multihull should simply be the boat that the majority of youth are actually racing. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

"Personally I think the ISAF youth multihull should simply be the boat that the majority of youth are actually racing. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that."

Rhody, can`t fault your logic there, but if you did a survey you might find that the H16 is NOT that boat in the greater scheme. Perhaps it is, but not where I`m from, The Hobie class is not attracting young skippers right now which needs to be rectified. Most of the top sailors are the same guys who were the top sailors in the 80`s. I think the rising cost of equipment is a probable factor.
In Europe I believe the H16 is not the largest class, and probably not the boat of choice of most young sailors unless they want to attend youth worlds, and then it is no longer a boat of choice, but the boat they have to sail.
In the Uk I`d imagine one of the Dart classes is the boat most youth sail, perhaps the 16 or even the 18.
It would be interesting to actually know which boat (worldwide) is sailed by most young cat sailors. In Australia I`d imagine it could be a Paper Tiger / Mosquito / or even Taipan. Or H16 ??
Would be an interesting exercise - we could get someone from each country on the forum to submit results of the national champs of the major classes in their country, and highlight the competitors who qualify as youth sailors.
Any takers ?? I`ll do SA !!

The idea is to get youth out sailing on whatever is available in your part of the world. The ISAF event is only one regatta. The boat really should not be the issue. Lets not forget that Hobie has consistantly provided boats to Worlds, Nationals, US Sailing and ISAF events(16's and Tigers). Why not be happy at least one company can step up and keep doing this year after year.

I don't know who said it in this thread, but there is no way to make everyone in the world happy. The choice here is all about COMPROMISE. There is no other class of boat that can match the H-16 in depth and width of availability on a global level. Sure, it's not the perfect boat for every condition or situation - what is? When you're dealing with youth sailors, you have to remember that there is a big difference in strength and maturity between a 14-year old boy or girl and an 18-year-old boy or girl and the boat must be manageable for everyone in this wide gender and ability range. Sure there are exceptions, but that's not the point. The boat must be reasonably attainable and manageable by everyone regardless of their age or gender.

We have to ask: what are the goals for picking a youth boat; is it availability, cost, durability, ease of handling, ability to practice/teach fundamentals? I'm sure all of these things are taken into consideration and I know there are other boats out there that fill one or more of these areas better than the H-16 and are more exciting to sail. But I can't think of another class of boat that can fill ALL these categories on a global level as well as the H-16.

Here in the Netherlands a few sailors got together and restarted the official youth program. Actually Misha Heemskerk is coaching the youngster and he was a Olympic Tornado campaigner for the 2004 olympics. Before Mitch and Herby won teh Dutch slot for that event. I think there are 4 youth teams in training right now. They are using the Hobie 16 with spinnaker. Somewhat of a sad point is that they make up the bulk of H16's at some of the bigger events here in NL. FOr some reason H16's are not entered into these events with the same numbers as in the past. There are actually more active Dart 18 sailors overhere then H16 sailors. And this does indeed exclude the recreational tour sailors who only enter a regatta at their home club. I think these kids are getting great training by Misha and the other volunteers but the choice for H16 as the boat doesn't seem really attractive from a fleet racing or cost point of view. At least not in the area of NL. The plain H16 don't really want them on their course.

By the way. Misha had a great one-line after finishing up teh westland cup that was pretty much blown away by big wind. None of the youth sailors pulled a kite, while all other racers on F18's and sorts did. Simply because sailing with a kite in big weather makes the F18's and sorts better behaved. Anyway, the youths were eyeballing eachother on the race course and as none of them pulled a kite first no crew did. So Misha said "to the gethering crowd afterwards (after welcoming all youth crews onto the podium) : "Three guesses what will be on the training program tomorrow, my little trainees !? How, to pull a spinnaker. It was actually pretty comical at the time, but he has a point. If you want to win then you must be the crew how goes for it and not wait to see what the others are all doing.

I took a 65 kg 20 year old girl (Dart 18) on my Formula 16 during these westland cup races and she was completely sold on the concept. Spinnaker loads to high, not for that Girl. If anybody was out of breath it was me.

So like Scooby says we should give the youth some more credit. They can handle these boats.



Wouter

In France it is most likely the Kl 15.5 from which the SL16 was derived. KL 15.5 is the official youth boat for French youth sailors.

Even the boulogne brothers (2003 F18 world champions) campaigned in this boat when they were younger.

In the Netherlands the Dart 18 is on a level with the H16 when it comes down to youth activities.

Like Steve says, many of us could be surprised to see an different boat then the H16 score out ahead in the way of youth class on a global scale.

Wouter

Nope.

To get the kids to sail cats (in the UK) we have to find something that looks more fun than a 29er or a Musto Skiff!

That means a Spitfire, F16 or an F18 Simple as that for 2 up, or a Shadow, Inter 17, FX1, (my new beast) or an A class.

[color:"blue"]End of story. [/color]

The kids are sailing the H16 [color:"red"] because they have to to get coaching and/or funding to then get an F18, not because they want to. It's that simple. [/color]

The problem is the Funding and I cannot see a way around it. Hobie do a good job of supporting the ISAF events by providing the boats, but in turn this forces the country's that want to compete to buy 16's (at a similar price to Spitfires etc.

Word!

I think one of the disadvantages a lot of posters on this thread have is that they see things from a national point of view rather than a global one. I gather that mono dinghy sailing in the US is not high profile - it seems that sailors want to get onto lead mines as soon as they can. So there hasn't been the same move towards modern high performance dinghies as there has been in Europe and Oz. And these modern boats are the ones the kids here want to sail. Read some of the UK forums where youth sailors post - it's all about whether a Cherub is better than a 29er or whether they should buy a moth and fit foils or get an MPS or RS700. So if we're to get these guys onto the proper number of hulls we have to offer them something that's at least as sexy as a Cherub or a 29er - or even an RS200. Because if we don't these kids will become the next generation of skiff sailors.

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against H16s - I've had a blast sailing them at Vassiliki (and had the bruises to prove it!). But it's a 1970s boat and this isn't the 1970s. Youth dinghies have move on a lot. If we want cat sailing to prosper, youth cats have to move on too. So what do we need? Not sure the perfect boat exists. Maybe a Hobie Tiger Cub....?

Having just attended a symposium where the focus was how to get get your junior program sailors into your one design class. I thought I would make a few points.

1) They emphasized the social and programmatic aspects of junior sailing.
In the US... the program is Opti's till they are 15 then lasers and 420's.
Notice... they don't mention catamarans.
Notice, that these are not high performance sexy boats.

Personally, I don't know of a Sailing club which starts a junior out in opti's and then offers the choice of a laser, 420 or Hobie 16.

Even if they did…. The multihull or skiff option is not offered in College.

So, this is a major hole in the program! (Now Bob Merrick has noted that this is not that important with respect to sailing skills (and he is certainly qualified to know)… but I have to believe that no sizzle hurts you with kids.)

Second point..
Getting your kid going on a Hobie 16 is great... but you need a "gaggle" of em... This point was emphasized over and over. At the target age… the social structure is critical. Where do we have this going in the USA???

At the US Sailing one design meeting last weekend. the ISAF choice was announced and it did not even register a mutter with the cat sailors in attendance. I think we cat sailors are thankful that Hobie Corp offers the support they do... So… IF, we could find another, Builder, Club, Rich Benefactor who wanted to pursue a different program ... we would try to use those NEW resources to piece together a national program with what we have. (Anyone know what Phillip Kahn has finally come up with) .. Until then... The US program is based in the Hobie 16 class... Will it produce international competitors…. Probably not. We are hoping for a superstar kid to emerge... we are not systematically training youth for elite competition in skiffs or multihull


Final point. the Hobie 16 class understands that most people who return to sailing after an abscence... come back to what they are familiar with... This point was also made by the folks running the Junior breakout sessions.

It amuses me that some see the youth multihull as a stepping stone to the olympic tornado. I thought the idea of introducing youth to Catsailing was just that- to swell the ranks of catsailing, not to push them on to become one of the twenty-five successful representatives at a Tornado olympics.

Some kids can handle kites but 12yr old learners find it difficult on a boat optimised for nineteen yr olds. Dinghies doesn't have the leverage or loading of a catamaran so we can't compare them.

I sail a spinnaker cat a lot. To be competitive, I need a gorilla on the front. Kites are very hard work if you want to be competitive.Its not just the sheet load. The hoist and drop are also very strenuous. On the youth boats, the crew will also assist with the mainsheet, so it is hard work.

Finally a comment on why the spinnaker has not found its way onto the open Hobie 16 class:
Imagine the difficulty of conducting a round-robin world championship for 112 teams on 56 boats equipped with spinnakers? How would the beach crews check for damage to the spi after each race... pull the spi up on the beach in 20 kts ??
The way Hobie does a supplied boat worlds makes it unlikely that spinnakers can be included. The class doesn't seem to want them but that doesn't mean that the class is not encouraging youth.

Mark,

Your comments are all very well for the US, but in the UK, we have to contend and fight for sailors who are seeing fleets of 30 29ers (see here for example at an open meeting ) 29er's are cool. I would probably not be sailing a cat now if 29ers were around when I was a kid, I would be sailing an 18 foot skiff or a 49er ! we also have a good fleet of musto skiff's at a open at the same time.

This was an open at our club to remember Dave Ovi (the designer of the boats who died recently).

29ers are cool. H16s are not.

Spitfires look cool and modern, Sorry, but as George says H16's do not, and the kids in the UK care.

They want to go fast, they want a kite and they want a technical boat to sail.

If we want cat sailing to flourish in the UK (and the Holland/rest of the EU - Correct me if I am wrong Wouter) we need a boat that WILL ATTRACT people to it like the 29er already does.


A little while ago I was talking to some kids about the Inter 17 at the club when they were up for the above open and they were asking about helming from the wire (you could see they were already thinking about the progression to a 49er (not a Tornado) and they were asking "so how fast is it mate"... oh, it's handicap is just a little faster than a 49er, but I cannot keep up in the light stuff, but give me some breeze and I'm lapping them no worries.....

Ok they said.. Still don't want a Tornado. Why I asked.... Oh, no real reason, just so much more to learn after spending so much time on the 29er !!!!!!


Most of the "adults" around the club want to sail a Tornado....

So by not catching them young they go onto the 49er and not to the Tornado.......

Then in later life want a Tornado.....Bugger.........

Mark: As you said, the social aspect with the kids is key. I started to see parents go to regattas last season because of pressure from he kids not wanting to miss an event that all the other kids will be at. I can think of 7 father daughter teams we have in our fleet alone. There have been over 20 youth competing at each div.16 regatta last season. Rochester provided a huge inflatable obstacle course for the kids on Saturday night. The kids know this and can't wait to go there.

It amuses me, too. And you thought right.

Funny Simon, I see the same thing here i Norway. The 49er gets all the thunder, while the kids in 29ers hardly know what a Tornado is. Anyway, they believe that the 49er is way faster, becouse it's the fastest dinghy on the water... Last national championship only three 49ers bothered to show up.

When it comes to looks, the Tornado is not that hot (in my opinion, and I own one), but the speed and the ride is perfect. Sadly, you have to experience it to get hooked. Just leaving the others behind in the dust at handicap events is not enough.

Now, that Blade is a good looking cat..

There's so much fertile ground for comments here! And definitely at least two different threads rolled into one.

As for ISAF and the youth sailing program - it is an admirable goal to provide a path to the Olympic class multi, whether all that compete in that youth program desire to go there or not. It all seems a bit like what happened with the Tornado - the class itself did not want to update the rig and number of traps, but once that happened at the Olympic level the class followed suit. Maybe the thought is that the class will ultimately follow the lead. But it will be tough for the kids if the class doesn't follow, because the coaching won't be there until the adults get on similar boats (but that is also an issue for other designs). As for spin loads and strength - at this level of the game you don't need the fastest and most powerful and hardest to handle - you just need enough to make it fast enough and interesting enough and hard enough to keep learning sailors interested and learning.

As for getting kids interested in cats - I once asked an SCCA racer I was crewing for what would be the best class to start racing in. He said it didn't matter as long as it felt like a race car to me. There were classes that had tight rules and great heads up competition, but the cars weren't cutting edge. His point was that if you chose that class and the car didn't feel like a "race car" to you, you would lose interest regardless of all the other benefits and leave the sport sooner rather than later. Likewise if you chose the class with only one or two high tech cars in the field and running alone was less of a racing experience to you then the same end would result. Sage advice. What does all this mean? We sit around and postulate about what the superior youth boat is - has anybody tried asking the kids what gets their blood going? I think this is more important at this stage in the game for multis. As pointed out some of the leading classes in monos for youths aren't cutting edge, but they're established and the interest is already there. For multis it is not established, and most non-multi people know about Hobie 16s from the ones that are rotting on beaches or from their mono instructors telling horror stories of blown tacks and capsizing. But maybe the answer from the kids would still be the Hobie 16. But either way I suspect it needs to feel like a race boat to them, and there is competition from the mono side.

BTW - I don't mean to bash the 16. I still feel the 14 is the best boat for young ones to learn cat sailing on. As for an affordable and available spin boat for the youth program, I believe the Hobie 18 with a spin (and a few other updates) would be an excellent choice - tough, has boards, tuning options that are relevant to moving up, not as high-tech or expensive, etc. Too bad that's not an option anymore.

Blather mode off...

I am going to be involved in a CISA clinic this weekend on Hobie 16s at ABYC in Long Beach, CA. Bob Merrick is coming out to be a part if it as well. Some other names that are involved are Pete Melvin, Pease and Jay Glaser from the same club. Eileen will be there to address any of the "from the crew's perspective." This is a really impressive group of catamaran sailors trying to hook children on the double hulled boats.

I agree that this is not the best boat to transition from, but it is the boat available right now.

I would like to see if we could:

1. Get more yacht clubs interested in getting catamarans into their sailing programs.

2. Have boats that are light enough for the kids to haul around. For example the 29er is about 200#.

3. Get a good group rate on the boats to be able to promote them, affordably.

4. Promote interested parties (you and I) into buying the boats for the clubs so there can be an instant fleet available.

I know the the SL16 is the alternate boat for the Youth Sailing. I only know a little about it. I did not know that it was not the boat of choice for the ones that will actually be sailing them. I just read that in this thread. If it was not, then what boat most interested them? The kids I mean.

Later,
Dan

I repeat.

Yes, and it is not the Hobie 16.

Did a quick search for Hobie in the UK.

http://www.hobiecat.org.uk

They have what looks to be a well organized youth sailing program as shown on the UK Hobie Class Website. I would love to hear more from the Hobie sailors over there about what they think is going on in their country.



What I have personally seen is teams of UK youth at the Hobie 16 worlds... with coaches. The 2005 Worlds had 3 UK youth teams. I'd say they have their blood boiling about the Hobie 16 and cat sailing.



The website also shows a charter fleet of Hobie Dragoons for training and available coaches. Pretty cool!

http://www.hobiecat.org.uk/index.php?go=charter

That is indeed my take on the situation. In NL we also have to compete with all the kite surfers around. Those guys have some cool looking gear as well and the stunts they make seem to make the youth drool. In NL the youth classes are opti, lasers and even more so plashes and such dinghies. Cats are rarely featured. It is a mistake on the part of the cat sailors.


With respect to 49-er, which isn't big in NL, I can say that there are plenty options that blow this dinghy out of the water. Spitfires, F16's, FX-ones. Sadly the old EU version of the I-17 simply isn't up to it. Main point here is that we are not talking about any expensive space age catamarans here. Must I remind everybody again that a Stealth/Blade F16 go for the same price as a new race ready Hobie 16 ? It is time to put gut feelings out the window and look hard at the numbers. Modern boats aren't necessarily expensive. Formula boats allow poorer countries to build locally while OD classes do NOT.

Maybe we need to rethink the whole setup.

What good is an OD class when that immediately excludes nations like south africa and Thailand due to the exchange rates ? Is that more fair to the competition ?

Would it not be better to put a formula youth class out there or even a "free-to-use" design out there. A design that every local builder can build for his local market. That will immediately allow more nations and teams to get a youth class going and negates alot of exchange rate problems. Why not have ply-epoxy boat compete with a foam-glass one ? Is the OD fetishm of the big nations more important then the needs of the smaller nations with bad economies. This is what ISAF should be thinking about. Screw a 1% design difference if that also means that much more teams can compete ! In the youth class isn't participation far more important ?

Wouter

Does an Optimist get a kids blood racing? I'd say its more to do with what the kid's parents think is suitable.

We have done a poor job of promoting our discipline within the sailing community.

Kids don't have money, their parents do

Maybe we should be alot more flexible in this. All of us (me included)

Just choice the best local boat as the local youth class and focus on participations first.

Then just fleet of permanently owned (by ISAF) world championship boats with a transport container donated (sponsored) to hold the worlds event on. We don't have to sell these boats each year, we can keep them, unless selling is economically more attractive. Why not just pick an open design and allows all builders to produce against say 250 US$ license fee. And I mean ALL BUILDERS. IN each following year we only need to find financial support for holding the event, shipping the container and the maintainance of the boats.

I really don't want to beat me own drum and I would gladly support the H16+spi in the above setup. But I'm sure that things can be arrange with F16 boats. To react to your points :



How does 236 lbs sound ?





No kidding, if you can get a group together then I'm sure that I can get you a group deal discount at Vectorworks Marine. It is just so much more attractive to produce 10 boats in one single go then spread out.

And if not Vectorworks Marine then AHPC will do it. I will pick up to phone and discuss it directly with Greg Goodall, as I have done often in the past with other things. How does less then 12.000 Euro's or US$ sound for new boats, and that are the going commericial rate WITHOUT DISCOUNT at this time ? In a decent sized group deal I feel we can go down to 10.000 Euro's. How much does a 29-er cost again ? Or the SL16 (14000 Euro's)

My point here is that we can surely arrange for an affordable modern catamaran, cost is not really the problem here As the class I took as an example is already cheaper then the official choices. If we can do it, in an semi-amatuer class like the F16's, then why couldn't it be done in other cases as well ?

How about the home-build option of the F16 class ? I'm sure a few good carpenters can be found in Brasil or Thailand.


How about having over 300 compliant boats around the world already ?

ISAF made her own life difficult by sticking to impossible requirements. AHPC wanted to enter the Taipan 4.9 at the youth class trials (and it would have blown aways the competition for certain) but couldn't because the boat had daggerboards.

For some reason ISAF thinks that daggerboards on a 29-er, laser 1's or splashes are no problem for kids but that they are on catamarans ? Greg Goodall said to me personally that he wouldn't alter the Taipan design from having daggerboards to gaving skegs or something. It would ruin the boat. Of course ISAF also had the grant idea of rubber bumpers on the catamarans. How much of that is on the 29-ers ? Greg really didn't want any of that, and I fully agree with him on that. So AHPC pulled out.


Now this discussion is really not about the merits of the H16 or even the F16, these are just example to make a point. The point being that we we have more then enough possibilities to make a proper youth program work, with a any truly modern catamaran that will shame 49-ers while being shitloads cheaper. Remember a 49-er is 20.000 Euro's or more now. Compare that again to a 12.500 US$ Blade F16 or a 14.500 Euro's FX-one.

I also think that it is high time that we cat sailors take things in our own hands.

Wouter

Who cares what gets their blood going? Why does the ISAF youth boat have to be about attracting youth to the sport? Attracting young sailors to the sport is much more about grass-roots efforts by adults. It doesn't matter what the boat is. Look at the Optimist. There is nothing simpler and more prolific at getting kids interested in sailing. How many of you (us) have sailed an Optimist? Didn't you learn something? It's certainly not a feeder class for America's Cup sailors, but I've watched Dennis Conner and other skippers and crew at that level toe the line in an Optimist with a huge grin on their faces. So you need more speed - what about the Laser. It's not the fastest or most exciting but it's everywhere and nearly everyone has tried it.

In this same vein, how many of you have sailed a Mosquito or a Spitfire? On a percentage basis, not very many. How many of you (us) have sailed an H16? The one or two of you who have not may now exit the room. Since nearly everyone else ligitimately registered on this site has tried one, my point is made: It is the only common denominator available. There will always be a more exciting boat and some dream ride that skilled youth sailors would crawl through flaming lava to sail, but the simplicity of the H16 and its worldwide availablity make it the best choice - currently.

Are you kidding? How about 30,000. In addition, trying to get manufactures to produce a boat specifically for youth sailors would be a tough proposition in an already crowded market. Why reinvent the wheel. This isn't America's Cup here The youth boat should test fundamental skills, not the sailor's thrill threashold.

I think that seeing the world's best youth sailors on a boat that so many young people have access to gives the up-and-comers something to easily identify with and will do more to generate interest than the latest, greatest, unreachable rig.

Makes good sense to me SteveT.I have both a laser and a hobie 16.Are there faster fancier boats?I am sure there are,but my family( wife ,14yr old son and 11yr old daughter) have had a great time sailing and racing both boats.

Matt miller,

I've taken a little look around the web site and if their forum is anything to go my, not much.....





BUT

Brain Phipps has done a vast amount of work to get a squad of kids up and running with the H16 as this is the boat they had to use for events. I am just passing on what I have been told in the dingy park about the H16 and what the kids think about it. Sorry, don't shoot the messenger....

And Wouter......



I think you have some very slow I17 sailors over there. In an F3 I'm just faster than a 49er around the course, in an F4 I am a fair bit faster than them and in a F5-6 I lap them in a 5 lap race......with ease

Also, you say else where on this board that you are happy for us I17 sailors to come and sail with you on parity as the handicaps are almost the same (couple of points I think, and we are grandfathered into the F16 class afterall) - so which is it, is the I17 almost the same speed or not ?

Yeah, looks to be an all new site as of September. Heck the IHCA and HCA-NA don't even have forums. That doesn't mean they aren't trying.

I do feel sorry for those poor Brit kids forced to sail on Hobie 16s though... right! As said before, there are always hopes and dreams about bigger and faster boats to sail. You ask a kid (me for that matter) what would they prefer to sail. There are always going to be dreams. The answer is not always rational.

Exactly why are we so intent on the youth market when they can not even afford one without the help of a family member with a job, there parents are afraid the kid is going to lose interest after one season for something better.It is the parent mostly buying the boat to show the kids how much fun it is the parent must judge how much money they can afford. Most yacht clubs do not have the room to stack 10-15 boats to make it worth while. Most teens will buy a car before a race ready hobie or sl16 kl15 M4.3......I think it better to put them on a popular in the local area boat they can handle and let that desire build but I guess some salesman's family would starve! Bombs Away! Sorry to repeat what some others have already said but a catamaran can be an intimidating craft they handle in spurts foreward whereas dinghy'go sideways then foreward and your inside of it to boot.How many of you have scared the crap out of some kid or adult for that matter on your cat. I was never worried about dismasting or ripping a hull off or flipping in dinghy sailing , the good thing is there is a fifty -fifty chance they will come back for more.My uncle scared me and I was hooked. It took me a long time but I finally found a place where I could keep and use the boat.I now have introduced a few in my wake they like it too. It is a damn exciting aspect to sailing and always will draw a specialized crowd.Finally Hobie has the shear spread of numbers accessible to the "I want to try and sail/race public".There seems to be a "We wanna spread the wealth attitude", with the boat change up for the future.Its also a Euro thing! More bombs Away!

I recommend the I20

take the darwinism/natural selection approach.

Less than 5% of sailing 14yo's can handle a Nacra20 in a stiff breeze, but those who do are gonna be really good

The new British Youth Boat per request by Scooby

Anything less is uncool!

No spi..

But yes, very cool, if a bit unpractical.

and not waterproof.

Sorry there is no kite - Rejected

Check out the Youth fourm on this site. There are three threads that address this issue. But perhaps the most interesting thing about the Youth forum is the lack of youth participating. The ones that do participate are into it because of their parents and sail what their parents sail. The boats they long for, according to their posts, are Hobie 14s and similar small boats. There's even a post from one kid inviting others to check out the NOR for the Youth Championship event on H16s that his dad told him about. "Looks like fun." the kid says.

One of those just got shot down over Cuban airspace last month with a few dissoriented Youth on board.

Right this is more appropriate

I would purchase that for my son..

On the off chance h didnt want it.. Would enjoy the ride myself...