tacking and right of way

Can someone explain, briefly when a boat clear ahead may tack, and what constitutes a completed tack.

The tack starts as the boat reaches head to wind, and is completed when it reaches its new heading.

Used to have to be underway, full and by and all that stuff. Now it is instantaneous. New rules also take the onus off the tacking boat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Rick

Ok! If two boats are on port, they both tack to starboard, and one boat hits the other from behing, who is at fault?

If they've completed their tacks (which seems to be the case in your scenario):

Rule 12: Boats on the same tack and not overlapped, the boat clear astern shall keep clear of the boat clear ahead.

The overtaking boat complains I slowed down.

Tough! - you're entitled to. He has to keep clear. (assuming - if you slowed deliberately - that he has been given time and opportunity)

If you haven't slowed deliberately, then he just has to cope - it's part of racing.

Thanks Rick and John. I new that! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Really.

So if instantaneous on new heading, could the new heading be whenever I snap my battens over?

Pete,

I hope he took his turns - or you protested?

Under the 'old' (pre-2005) rules that would have been the case - you had to have the sail over on the new side and drawing.

Under the 2005-2008 rules all you have to do is get the boat through head-to-wind and on to the new intended heading.

OMG! Pete, you are kidding right. LMAO

This thread comes from a little run in in tacticat.

I was on SB, he was on PORT, tacked in front of me. Stopped the tack when he was heading onto his course. Obviously he stopped his tack mid way, slowed down. In the game its not the right way to tack, but its doable.

I would have had to alter course in order NOT to hit him. Isnt that a big no no??? If it were real life I would have seriously protested him because of that.

You're making it a run-in, I'm trying to get the rules straight.

If he gets past head to wind and onto the starboard tack, you now have to avoid him...technically. However, the game will usually penalize the port tacker in that case (just like in real life, you roll the dice by getting into a situation that will involve penalties and/or judges). In a nutshell - the longterm starboard tacker must avoid the guy that just tacked in front of him that is now on starboard - even if it means slowing down (no rule gives right of way to a boat that would hit another boat from astern). This is a dirty translation...but if the longterm starboard tacker can't possibly avoid the port tacker (whether or not the port tacker made it to starboard before hand), the port tacker "tacked too close" and is at fault. If the long-term-starboard tacker could have avoided them by either slowing down or steering up past close-hauled but still hit them, the starboard tacker is at fault (on two rules).

Things get a little tricker within the two boat length circle...If you are in the two length boat circle of the mark, the port tacker can come in and tack in front of a starboard tacker - but MUST be on starboard tack before the other boat has to avoid and MUST not make the starboard tacker go past close hauled to avoid.

I think my confusion lies in the way "tacticat" defines completion of the tack, not the way the rule applies on the water.

"Tacticat" has become very aggressive in the last week or so. It now is somewhat less cordial and requires far more precision than just one week ago! I'm amazed! The "heat" has definitely been turned up a notch! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Pete,
I programmed the rules engine. There are many many holes, but, I'm pretty proud of how rights are calculated when one of the boats is tacking. It's literally 'from the book':
- When the boat starts the tack ALL rights are preserved while in the initial tack.
- When the boat reaches the wind direction it loses all rights.
- When the boats reaches the new closehauled angle it gets again the privileges of the new tack. A problem there... the normal tack includes falling off a bit to get speed and go smoothly again to the closehauled angle, from the rules perspective the boat has all rights associated to the tack since it passed first time the closehauled angle.
- If the user decides to stop the normal tack procedure, (rudders centered before he reached the closehauled angle, tacticat ENTER key) he recovers the rights immediatly. I aggree this is not normal, but, what if i decide to finish tack and start in the new angle on a course that is very slow ?(and i know this is understatement). How can you protest?

aestela.

I'm not protesting. You've done an excellent job, imo. Congratulations.

Aestela,

The current Sailing Rules apply the sailing tack (starboard / port) to the boat that is tacking as soon as it passes head to wind. This seems to be a little different than the Tacticat Rules. HOWEVER, I think it makes better sense to have them the way you have designed them for Tacticat - sailors just need to understand how it's applied and all is well (it took me a couple of times).

I've seen ONLY one situation (yesterday) where a penalty was clearly applied incorrectly. Two of us were approaching the gate sailing downwind, I was on port and there was a starboard tacker. I wanted the left mark and gybed about 6 boat lengths away for it and clear of a starboard boat. The starboard boat decided he wanted the right end of the gate and gybed. We collided while we were both under "computer control" nearing the end of our gybes. We had both clearly passed dead down wind and I was on starboard and the other boat now on port - but I was shown in black and penalized because we were both still in a gybing manuever...That's not a big deal but if you see an easy workaround....

I think you have done a stellar job with the programming and modification of the rules and program for the simulator. I agree that the programmed rules are not quite perfect, however, neither is applying the rules in real life...you "roll the dice" when you enter a protest room anyway so, as in real life, I find it simpler to just try and avoid any conflict in the simulator or on the race course. I like to beat 'em with my brain, not my bow.

It's often very very difficult to breach that layline procession of starboard tackers from the port tack. Yesterday I tacked in front of a stbd tacker, was well passed the new heading but still below it recovering from the 'fall off' when I was hit from behind and stopped. The trailing boat simply sailed straight through me, out the other end and continued on???

I happened to be in front of a very good sailor from up north at the time, and I thought I had him but unfortunately, (for me) the fat lady had yet to become vocal and another good result went south. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If you have stopped your tack midway, like Tikipete did, the other boat would have fouled. Its not the right way of doing it, but using the tacticat rules system you will gain a spot. I usually do this to bots and not to real people.

That's a value judgement, I do not share it.

No problem Pete, I will respect that. I have noticed it as an increased trend in tacticat. People will go out of their way (going off course) to foul you, so you drop one or two spots then you have to do your 360s. I have seen it happen quite often now.

Like Jake said, why not win by intelligence instead of by the bows? I dont get it. I try my darn hardest NOT to foul anyone and avoid to get fouled. Yet I have been fouled on purpose plenty of times.

Its the people who will go out of their way, to get you fouled is what annoys me.

Robi, You shouldn't be annoyed.

Trying to force an opponent foul its a usual tactical move in match racing. When sailing Tacticat you are often playing some kind of match race against the boat close to you.

People also likes to play with the rules. I think it a good thing sailors evaluate who is to be fouled and how. And push somewhat the limits.

I agree that it is dumb to try to win using the holes in tacticat rules engine. I think it doesn't pay, in the end.

The only ONE situation we are discussing here would not be clear at the protest room:
A port boat aproching the layline to A-mark tacks. After passing the eye of the wind and before he reaches the 'standard close-hauled angle' the skipper centers the rudders and trims his boat for closehauled. He is now a starboard boat. He is sailing very very slow.
In the water, if you have to change your course to avoid hitting him you can protest him but, will you win in the protest room????

What you (or rules experts) think?

aestela.

In real life, pretty much luff and walk over him, your dirty air will kill him off. However, sadly the steering controls on Tacticat are sometimes funny and accurate steering on a short notice can be very hard.

Wouter

Zoom in really tight. I've seen some amazing things in the last couple of days. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Takes practice though! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[quote
I've seen ONLY one situation (yesterday) where a penalty was clearly applied incorrectly. Two of us were approaching the gate sailing downwind, I was on port and there was a starboard tacker. I wanted the left mark and gybed about 6 boat lengths away for it and clear of a starboard boat. The starboard boat decided he wanted the right end of the gate and gybed. We collided while we were both under "computer control" nearing the end of our gybes. We had both clearly passed dead down wind and I was on starboard and the other boat now on port - but I was shown in black and penalized because we were both still in a gybing manuever...That's not a big deal but if you see an easy workaround....
[/quote]

Jake
Rule 13 applies only while tacking, and is not relevant to gybing situations. The scenario described, which also happened to me a while ago, probably relates to rule 16, keeping clear: "when a right of way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear". However, since both were changing course together, and in limited control, that definately seems like a scenario deemed for stormy jury deliberations, and therefore one to avoid (my personal lesson learned)

I love the way tacticat has improved my understanding of the rules, and think that using the rules well is part of the benefits from Tacticat. What does annoy me are the rare occasions where people misuse the loopholes in Tacticat, such as rules 17 and 18

[*]Rule 17 is complete
[*]Rule 17.1 is complete, except the definition of duecourse that in tacticat is ALWAYS the space bar course
[*]Rule 17.2 is not programmed (and, afraid, will never be unless sailing rules change to be more 'deterministic')
[*]Rule 18 is not programmed (trying to programm the rules when 4 or more boats aproach the A-mark would drive us nuts)

Misusing the holes require a good understanding of Tacticat and the sailing book. I assume tha people gets tacticat knowledge by playing BUT I've learnt that most sailors have very little understanding of the sailing book when things go a bit complicated.

A token: (only_my_opinion_ON) there it is really a minority of sailors that know when they can luff a windward boat and when they cannot (although almost everybody thinks they DO know <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />) (only_my_opinion_OFF).

We'll try to make do with what we have. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Amando.

The thing that stands out most in my mind, after going throuht these types of discussions, is this: The top sailors just don't get in these situations. No matter who is at fault, they always seem to keep clear air and good boat speed.

Not really Pete, look at the sailor called CAN### (I dont remember the numbers) He has been fouled plenty of times and NOT once have I seen him do a 360. Not very long ago there were a few sailors protesting him. He didnt say a word and never did his 360s. Top sailor, ranked two or three, and has never done a 360.

A few other newbies are jumping on the "I wont do any 360" bandwagon as well. Tacticat 360s work on a honor system, not every sailor does them.

This thread has got me totally confused. People keep referring to the person who has been fouled as having to do the 360. It is supposed to be the person who COMMITS the foul who has to do the 360. The person who has been fouled does not have to do a 360.

So why would CAN### have to do any 360's if he has been fouled several times?

I also get confused when you guys refer to the "starboard tacker" or the "port tacker." To me, when you use the word "tacker," it means the person is tacking, but it is not clear from what to what.

Would it not be more clear to say the "port tack boat" and the "starboard tack boat"? And if the person is actually tacking, to clarify that they are tacking "from starboard to port" or "from port to starboard"?

Terminology differences (and maybe language conflicts in general) make it difficult to talk about rules without being able to use diagrams. At least for me. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I meant he has FOULED other people. In which he is the FOULER and does not do his 360s.

Actually, I meant on the water. But, I agree with you. He, and some others, seem to be getting better in the last few days. Due to the huge amount of *noodle* they caught! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And online, you never see Jake caught up in this stuff. 'Course he's usually so far ahead no one has time to screw with him! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I thought the program stopped the 'offender' as soon as the foul is committed (the rules engine determines the offender). Maybe it would also post a protest flag (like the OCS flat) on the offending boat until the 360 is cleared?

Another good thing about the program... it's the ultimate One Design fleet...

I like it! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry... but not true... these black boats full carbon... 3% more top speed, 3% more acceleration <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

why do the 'carbon' boats immediately stop when you tack and try to duck them?

Because they are too scared of collision damaging their nice carbon fiber finished boats! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

How about this one then;
I'm the outside boat on port jibe (no I'm not jibing Mary). I need to jibe to Stbd to lay the finish line but the inside boat has control and will take me as far south as is necessary to put me clear astern after the jibe but, before we get to that position, he faints a jibe and me being anxious to jibe on top of him, I push 'enter'. Because he hasn't actually jibed, I hit him and another 360 is in me.
Good trick I thought, (after I said @#$%&* that is).

Berny,

Given that situation you can either sheet out to slow down or head up a little to give yourself room to jibe. You are pretty much beat at that point anyway and you're better off to just stay clean and pray the other guy makes some mistake (like overstand).

Sail your game, do what makes sense to you and let everyone else make the mistakes...that's my motto (taught to me by Mr. Nigel Pitt). I've not been able to apply it terribly well on the real water yet though. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mate I agree with your general philosophy but the teenager in me says; "go on, go on, do it, doooooiiiit" and sadly, sometimes, even at my age, I still listen. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

By the way, even if he overstands, I'm still going to be line astern after the jibe so that doesn't help. I did think of the 'sheet out' possibility and I will try that next time.
And while I think the situation is dire, I don't think it's game over. If you can jibe first and put the other bloke in your wind shadow, you're still in it with a chance.

I don't know if it's just me or my puter or if it's only unique to Australia maybe, but some days, like today, the site is just un-playable. The boat jumps all over the place, and even if that's not happening it either steers very quickly, or very slowly or it's slow to respond to commands and I mostly have little control. Bloody frustrating.

Sheeting out when going broad-reach has little effect on boad speed.

It's happened at some time or other to everybody. It's a problem of network latency. Today we do have only one server. It's located in Austin or Atlanta (USA).
Every time you give a command your computer sends it to the server and it sends back the new boat parms.
Latency is normally 0.1 sec or less. But sometimes it degrades to 1 sec or more. When info between your computer and the server takes more than 0.25 sec you have jumps.

Latency is due to network problems (congestion, transmit errors...) and are usually related with:

*Your computer (you have other programs running network hungry). Standard procedure: computer re-start.
*Your Access connection (shared with others in your lan or in you cable or DSL zone)
*Transpacific congestion
*Server problems (those affecting everybody). Starting procedure restart the server.

All in all a un-solvable problem affecting all internet on-line applications. Most of times nothing can be done and its time for a beer (or go real sailing).

Amando.

Thanks Amando, I suspected it might be something like that. I do have cable and a decent puter so I guess I'm stuck with it. I think I need to chill a little, it's only a boat race.

SACRILEGE!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />