Mooring a Hobie16

Has anybody had any experience with mooring their Hobie? I am in the unfortunate position of having to do that and was wondering if there are any reasons why I should not attempt to moor it.<br><br>

There is no problem with mooring a Hobie Cat. The issues at hand are:
<br> a) Does your hulls take water on? If so you need to find where and fix the leaks.
<br> b) If you are going to keep your sails on board, make sure you have a sunguard for your jib and a main sail cover
<br> c) Bottom paint will cut your speed down a knot or two. You can try to wet sand it to make a better finish.
<br>If you have any questions contact me at GeronimoDF@aol.com
<br><br><br>

my experience has been that you also ned to bungee up the shrouds and forestay so that they don't jiggle all over the place and cause excessive wear. you also need to make sure that your lashing points are secure and use a nice elastic rope
<br>
<br><br><br>success is not having to work in may and october
<br>- art garfunkle

Hmmm. I am still many months from actually SAILING my Hobie. But in thinking about what my crew (a wife and a number of daughters) like to DO when sailing I have developed a question. Here in my part of the world there is a shortage of sandy beaches and a 10 foot tidal drop. We like to sail to an island and stop there for a while to swim. Well, these crew members do. I would just sail until it got too dark to see OR the tide got too low to go home for sustenance.

I found this old thread on mooring, which I do not plan to do. BUT how and where do you carry a small anchor, so that I can put the Hobie in a spot that is (even slightly) above the point where the tide leaves it beached on a rocky beach?

THANKS! Richard

Mooring a Hobie is generally a bad idea. For a few dyas here and there, with the proper precautions is OK. I have stored an anchor in hull ports. Be careful about anchoring too clsoe to those rocks. Waves and winds can push your boat right onto the rocks.

This would not be mooring, just anchoring for a couple of hours. I don't think the Hobies sounds like a good mooring boat, so my plan is to keep it on the beach, where it belongs!

My father-in-law insisted on mooring our H16 for five weeks, and when he finally pulled it out of the water each hull was about 1/3 full of water. Also, the shrouds take an awful beating and quickly deteriorate. Don't moor a Hobie.

I work at a summer camp and We have recently developed a wsystem of mooring lines for our 4-10 hobies that we use on a daily basis. We spliced loops which we put into the shackle at the intersection of the bridle and forestay, we can then attach the clips on the mooring line to the loop and leave them in the water while we change campers every hour. we devised this system to to reduce the amount of wear on the hulls that would be inflicted by dragging the boats on and off of the beach six times a day. our system has worked in that it has protected the hulls, however I do not think it would be suitable for overnight use.

My fault for picking up this old thread. I won't MOOR my Hobie, but I do want to take along an anchor and somehow anchor at various islands. Because of the 10 to 11 foot tidal changes I would prefer to anchor a bit off shore so I don't have to push the boat over what can be some pretty funky or rocky shores.

So I would like to bring along an anchor and BRIEFLY (1-2 hours) anchor sometimes. Can this be done? What's the best way?

Thanks for the ideas on this topic!

Richard
THANKS!

I am not sure of all the issues of mooring a Hobie, and why it is a bad idea to moor a Hobie. Sounds like two main issues,
1) the hull taking on water because the bottoms get worn,
2) the shrouds taking a beating.

How is the Hobie different from other boats in these regards, that it is not a good idea to moor a Hobie? Other sailboats are moored. What is the Difference? TnT

First, about the best way to ANCHOR a Hobie 16. I carried a collapsable small boat anchor in a padded bag in the hulls of my Hobie. You could also lash on to the tramplacing just aft of the mast. Make sure you get one that will work in the type of bottom that you will be anchoring to. Talk to you local marina about that. I tied the bitter end of the anchor line to the dolphin striker and front cross beam junction. The front crossbeam took the load.

Tinkerton. The reason the Hobies take on water when moored and other boats do not is that the Hobies (and other beach cats and day sailers) do not have a barrier coat to protect teh fiber glass from the water. Gel coat is not water proof. It is very porus and allows water to seep through over time. The fiberglass underneath the gelcoat is like a sponge soaking up all the water that seeped through. This will cause delam, blistering, and will fill the hulls with water.

The second part of this is the rigging gets beat up, as you noted. Other sailboats that don't have a rotating mast have tighter rigging. The loose rigging allows the mast to slam around since it can move some independantly of the boat. This dynamic loading (the slamming) causes higher laods than normal to be imparted to the rigging and anchor points. It's like jumping off a step versus slowly stepping down. you feel more of a jolt when you jump due to momentum. On the boats with tight rigging the mast and the boat are rigid so there is reduced, if not eliminated, dynamic loading.

WOW NICK! GREAT post. This clears it all up for me. I do not presently have a way to put the anchor into one of the hulls, but perhaps that is something that could be done before I take the boat sailing. And putting the anchor rope onto the front crosspiece makes perfect sense. I can't wait for Spring to take the boat out. OOPS. I guess I will have to, since I am going to have to get some light air to begin with. This is a terrific forum and I am very confident that I will be able to get my boat out and sailing when the weather warms up a bit.

THANKS!

Richard

Ditto to you Richard, I learned a bunch of new stuff on that one by Hobienick.


So is there no way to seal the gel coat, and why is it designed the way it is? I thought if the hulls were just filling, you could install solar powered bilge pumps to occasionally pump the hulls out, as in the case of the father-in-law.

But what you are saying, the foam actually absorbs the water which then become waterlogged and sluggish while sailing. How long does this process take, and what determines the time? I have read of the hull filling with water in the course of a day of sailing, but assumed that it was a funtion of the bottom wear.

The bottom paint I would understand acts as a seal until it wears off, but how is it that it slows the boat down?

If you locked the mast in one position to keep it from rotating does that solve the problem. Someone earlier suggested using bungies on the shrouds, does that solve that issue?

I wondered if the cat configuration being so wide, compared to a monohull, would cause the mast to whip from side to side more than a mono due to the wave action, resulting in more wear and tear?

So in the course of a day of sailing, and anchoring for an hour or two, do these issues become significant? TnT

TnT

My understanding is that hard-core racers will wait until shortly before the start to put their boats in the water and take them out between races because they can absorb a few pounds of water an hour. More weight = slower. I suppose if you sanded the gelcoat a little bit and then applied an epoxy barrier coat that could help with the issue of water absorbtion. Also I suppose if you locked the mast so it didn't rotate and then tightened the rig with the jib halyard that could help with that issue also. I suppose if I had no choice but to moor/anchor the boat I'd do something along those lines.

Thanks Jim, but my basic question remains. I am new to fibreglass, epoxy, and gelcoat. All my other boats are skin on frame, SOF, Kayaks and sailing canoes. They have their issues with vinyl and hypalon hulls. So it seems that all boat designs have issues.

Why is Gelcoat used if it absorbs the water? Is it tougher than the fibreglass and resin? UV resistant? Lighter weight? Resists distorting under sailing pressure better than fibreglass?

Cheaper? Easier to repair? Can it be sealed? Is the absorption necessary, and sealing is counterproductive?

Lots of questions, Thanks for your help, TnT

As far as reducing the wear on the rigging when anchoring you need to keep the mast connected to the boat as rigidly as possible. This will prevent the dynamic loading (banging) which causes the damage.

Gel coat does not adsorb water, it allows water to seep through. It is porous. The fiberglass is what adsorbs the water like a sponge. It then goes into the foam which really wicks it up.

Gel coat is used to give the fiberglass a finished look when the parts are made in a mold. It protects the epoxy resin from UV and helps fill out any surface imperfections in the fiber glass. You can also texture the gel coat for different surface finishes.

I'm not sure why gel coat is still the material of choice. I do know that when I go to paint my boat (hopefully this winter) I will be using a 2 part epoxy paint that is much easier to apply than glecoat. I could also incorporate a barrier coat if I choose as the epoxy is not waterproof either.

I am by no means an expert on fiberglass and gelo coat, I just happen to have absorbed lots of bits of information on the subject.

Guys,

There is a MAJOR misunderstanding in this forum regarding the porosity and subsequent water seepage through gelcoat. Gelcoat is porous, and given "enough time" it will eventually allow H20 penetration into the laminate (fiberglass) or worse - the core. BUT, this absolutely DOES NOT happen in a matter of hours or days so as to be identified by simple observation. Also, the rate of water penetration through gelcoat varies immensely from boat to boat - even within the same specific models/year of boat. I have personally seen serious penetration occur in a brand new (1 year old) 29 footer after less than 6 months in the water. And, I have seen glass boats 30 years old with no penetration at all - and no barrier coat.

There are many well-known reasons for these huge variances. There are also some reasons that are poorly understood or probably not known at all. In a nutshell; construction times, resin quality and mixing, chemical contamination, ambient temps/humidity during construction, consumer use/abuse, local water quality and consumer climate make up the majority of the known variables.

If you find water accumulation INSIDE a Hobie (or fiberglass boat) after a relatively short period of time in the water (weeks to a few months or less), it is due to; (1) Structural leakage (damage) - cracks in hull bottoms or hull lip... (2) Design leakage - around drain plugs, thru-hulls, or water following the side-rail into the corner casts and down into the pylons. (3) condensation accumulation.

But, if your Hobie is not being moored/docked in water for long periods of time, I can assure you that water is NOT simply seeping through the porosity of the gelcoat and accumulating in your hull...FOR SURE. That is just NOT how fiberglass and gelcoat works. In fact, water penetration of fiberglass/gelcoat does NOT even exhibit itself as "water inside a hull" unless the hull has become so water-logged (core and glass laminate) that the hull itself cracks/splits and lets the water in. This is the end-stage of the problem, and (generally) takes many, many years of sitting in the water to occur. Even then, most boats will not be around long enough to come to this.

The fact is, the vast majority of boats with this affliction appear perfectly dry inside the hull. Yup, you read that correctly - perfectly dry inside. This is because the water penetrates INTO the laminate and core where it cannot be seen. Water that finds its way to the inside of a hull (where you can actually see it) is usually another matter.

To really detect/diagnose water penetration, one must use (for the most part) an expensive moisture meter (especially on larger boats)to detect the water inside the fiberglass. Marine surveyers can do this for you.

As for gelcoat, and why it is used, the answer is simple and certainly no trade secret. First, it is very cost effective in two main regards - materials and labour (especially when using molds for construction). Gelcoat has the supreme advantage of being easily applied to the inside of a polished mold prior to laying the fiberglass laminate. When the part is finally pulled from the mold... voila - a perfect finish and replica of the mold - boat after boat... no big prep (other than building the mold), no sanding, no sags and no runs. Gelcoat is also much more repairable than painted surfaces. But, gelcoat is porous, it oxidizes (unlike good paint), has poor UV resitance, requires regular polish/wax maintenance, and it has a nasty habit of spider-cracking.

As good as gelcoat is, it cannot provide the kind of truly superb finish that a high quality, two-part polyurthenane paint will provide - though painting is much more expensive and labour intensive. By-the-way, gelcoat is the same (polyester) resin that is used to laminate the fiberglass and build the entire boat. It is just tinted with pigment (color), and fillers are added to help with workabilty and finish quality. Gelcoat is not generally used to cover over epoxy laminates/resin - although it can be used in this way - especially if an epoxy repair has been made on a boat.

Fiberglass boats (like the Hobie) are contructed with polyester resin - not epoxy. And, epoxy IS waterproof - Barrier Coat is made of epoxy. Epoxy is FAR too expensive to build a whole boat from - at least, it is for us mere mortals.

Also guys, the only Hobie that MIGHT benefit from a Barrier Coat (which is basically epoxy) is one that is moored or otherwise left in the water all season long. Do not confuse bottom paint (antifouling) with Barrier Coat. They are two different things designed for completely different purposes. For one, bottom paint has nothing to do with waterproofing - only scum and algae prevention (ie. anti-foul). Barrier Coat is for waterproofing and the rough finish it provides, although waterproof, will hurt the speed and performance of a sailboat like the Hobie.

As for racers worried about the gelcoat absorbing water and weight prior to a race - this is a myth, as it does not occur (except on a microscopic level). Besides, even if it were true, a coat of simple wax would stop it completely.


I hope this helps clear things up a bit. A lot of words - I know. But when it comes to resins and fiberglass, there is a lot of myth and misinformation out there. It can cause great expense and hardship to newbies trying to get a handle on all this - I know, because I was one of them - bad information has lead me to some costly boo-boo`s. Hopefully by taking the time to write all this, someone else will have a better learning curve than I did. Who knows, maybe it will be the guy or gal who finds a way to stop Gelcoat from oxidizing! - no more waxing!. Now that would be something.


Dave

Nick and Tinkertom,

I just read your posts on another website (from todays` date) and realized that their may still be some confusion regarding the water penetration issue.

Worth emphasizing is that if water penetration actually does occur (over many months/years of having the boat in the water) you will still not see the water as an accummulation inside the hulls (with rare exceptions). And, if it is occurring at all, it is NOT NORMAL and you have a "sick" boat with a VERY serious problem - serious enough that the hulls are probably garbage/scrap in the case of a Hobie. The point is, even though gelcoat is porous, it should NEVER allow a detectable amount of water - even with a moisture meter - into the laminate or core - never mind inside the hull. If it does, this is probably the worst thing that can happen to a fiberglass boat...hurricanes and fire notwithstanding.

Once water does get into the core, it cannot simply be dried out or otherwise removed. Even if you keep the boat out of water and indoors for many years, you will not likely be able to get the core dry ... no kidding! The fiberglass actually has to be cut away to expose the core in the vicinity of the penetration to allow many months of drying - often with an external heat source. This is unfortunate, but true. On a Hobie hull, unless you can do all this yourself, it is time to buy a new hull.

...just trying to be of help,

Dave

Dave,

I'm glad you cleared this up. I didn't do a good job explaning the porous gel coat issue. My point was to dissuade people from leaving thier boat in the water for extended (months or seasons) periods of time to prevent exactly what you said would happen. The foam core gets waterlogged and you can't dry it out.

It seems that my not being more explicit in my post and the addition of the camping/gear storage topic let this get out of hand.

No worries at all Nick. I think the toughest thing about this topic is trying to un-do the misimformation that many of us have been repeatedly exposed to, and tend to accept as fact.

Your advice re: not leaving a Hobie in the water is bang-on...in my opinion. Both from a risk management standpoint regarding water-related problems, and from the structural standpoint involving the stresses of mooring any sailboat - especially a catamaran. It seems to me that Cats tend to have relatively poor weather-vaning tendancies while at anchor, and may require long bridles and/or excessively long anchor scope to compensate for this.

Cheers,

Dave

Beachcats don't have much freeboard, so they don't weathervane as easily. This isn't so much an issue as keeping the mast and rigging solid so they don't bang around.

As far as mooring larger boats, I would rather do that than put them into a slip where they get beat up by the dock.

Thanks Capt Dave, I have been googling gelcoat to try to understand the issues, and your synopsis help immensly. Can you share some of the specific deadends that you took, and we can watch out for?

As to dead hulls, in particular, I have understood that delam is due to water in the core, and have been glad to think that regluing is a good solution, and leaving open to dry out. Now it sounds like you are saying that if there is moisture in the hull, and delam is occurring, that it is already too late. That does not sound good to me. At what point is to much water, too much, beyond repair?

When I got my Cat, there was water standing in the hull after it had been parked for a long time. I have thought that was due to condensation, and possible drainage down the tubes, since the boat was not covered. Apparently this water had been in there for quite awhile, and I would suspect that it definitly would have absorbed into the foam core. The hulls themselves do not seem to be soft, though the decks were.

Recently, having installed the ports, and glued the soft spost, I found water, 1 inch standing in the hulls after they had been closed up. I opened them up and they dried overnite, so I have to believe that with ventilation there is significant drying going on. So now you have me wondering, and hoping that it is not as bad as you say.

I did these procedures figuring that I could not damage the hulls any more than they were already damaged, and I would expect that I could still use them, so the question I have basically, is what is the prognosis. What is the downside of continuing to use the hulls if water has penetrated the fiberglass and the foam? Are they just heavier and not as responsive as nice dry new hulls, well I don't expect to do much racing? Should I expect to be out sailing one day and see the hulls melt under me and descend into Davie Jones Locker? TnT

Tinkertom,

I believe you are confusing delamination and water penetration - they are separate problems altogether.

Although water penetration can certainly lead to delamination, it is incorrect to assume delamination is always associated with water penetration, because it usually is not. Also, the reverse is not generally true either - delamination does not lead to water penetration (with rare exceptions).

Most delamination comes from local stresses between the glass laminate and the core - thus creating a separation between the two. As for water penetration, I believe my prior writings explain this quite thoroughly so I will not go into it again. What I will say is, water penetration is a much, much more serious issue and can certainly destroy a vessel`s hull by making it too costly to repair. This is especially true when the core has been absorbing the water (not just the glass laminate). Note: water in the laminate is often described as Osmosis. Though this term better decribes the chemical nature of the actual process, it can be confusing to some.

Delamination is relatively easy to fix with the epoxy injection method you have referred to. On the other hand, water penetration of the core can be a damn nightmare to fix - or practically impossible. In the latter case, the affected parts of the core MUST be exposed by cutting away the laminate (fiberglass) and a very extensive drying process must then be used. Shortcuts in this process can be very punitive. If large areas of the core are water-logged, just imagine how much of the boat you would have to cut away to allow proper drying. In the case of a Hobie hull, this can easily mean it is time for the scrap heap.

Do not assume that the water settling in your hull has anything to do with delamination or water penetration - it is most likely completely unrelated. Water could probably sit there for years and cause little damage as long as it doesn`t freeze. Let me repeat myself; the presence of that water is NOT DIAGNOSTIC for either problem. It is diagnostic for condensation, or more likely a leak. So, find the source of your leak and fix it. In the meantime, it is always a good idea to keep your bilge fairly dry.

As I previously wrote, there are immense differences in the relative time it takes for SOME boats to allow water penetration (of the core or laminate). As for how much water penetration is bad, the answer is simple - any penetration, at all, is very bad and is a problem in evolution. Meaning...it will go from bad to worse in EVERY single case. Time is of the essense here, as well as deep pockets. And remember, unless you cut open specific areas of your boat, you will NEVER see water penetration of your core until it is probably too late. Even after cutting, early stage water penetration of the core may actually feel dry to the touch and a moisture meter may be required to detect it. You can, however, see Osmosis (blistering) of the laminate if you know what to look for.

Water penetration left unfixed will progress at varying rates which are unpredictable. Ultimately, it will destroy the hull. You may get rampant delamination - both between the core and laminate and within the glass laminate itself. You may see core swelling and subsequent splitting open of the hull as well as and generalized breakdown of the laminate altogether.

Are you getting a sense of just how tricky this problem is to detect and fix? Half the battle is not mis-understanding it in the first place, so don`t feel bad. Water penetration is the unseen killer of fiberglass boats and the only thing that really worries me as a large boat owner (I don`t live in the Hurricane zone). But, let me qualify this by stating; HOBIE OWNERS NEED NOT WORRY as this is a problem that generally affects boat kept in the water. This topic has surfaced here in direct response to the issue of mooring a Hobie. So, don`t start losing sleep and calling the marine surveyor yet.

As for my personal screw-ups... I started fiberglass fabrication in earnest more than 10 years ago. With hundreds of wasted hours and thousands of wasted dollars, my only solace is in calling it the "cost of my education". Chemical contaminations of gelcoat, resin quality, poor catalyst mixing, and ambient temp/humidity problems were my main "hard lessons". I have lost several molds and ruined many finishes because of these. Thankfully, my projects were small scale.


Dave

Thanks Dave, I will sleep better tonight!!!

I Just finished reading the thread about restoring your rig. Nice work, and it certainly looks like you know of which you speak.

As for myself, I by nature am not as much a purist, but what I call a practical engineer, a tinker, basically a hack! I look for things to be functional, but the world is a better place with your artistic flare. It is just that I would worry about running that hull up on a rocky shore, and getting a big scratch.

So as you learn to sail, know that I am out there crashing around, learning to sail as well. If you see this butt uggly Hobie Cat headed your way, be sure and say hi! TnT

Tinkertom,

Glad to hear you can relax a bit - that IS important.

Unfortunately for me, I too am one of those "oh my god, a scratch" type of guys. But I prefer to think of myself as a "spit and polish" guy instead. I have found that this type of self-delusion keeps me out of therapy and sounds a lot better than obsessive-compulsive...or worse - anal. I leave those terms to my closest friends, siblings and wife.

...What`s a guy to do?


Dave

"...What`s a guy to do?"

That's why we go sailing! or tinkering! TnT

First I'll second everything Dave said about the gel coat etc.

About anchoring. I do a lot of it. I carry an anchor with me all the time. IMO the Fortress or the slightly less expensive Guardian is the best because of how light they are. Also with a ( I think it's 7/16 wrench) you can take it apart quickly. I use a # 7 fortress but the # 5 guardian would work. As to storing it, I have a 20' ft boat so I have a little more room on my tramp. I also have a tramp bag for all the stuff I carry. I store mine under this bag. The best way to anchor is to make a bridle of similar dimensions to the one that attaches the forestay to the hulls. 3/16 pre stretched line works good. Find the center of that line and tie a overhand knot so you create a 3-4 inch loop. To that loop I tie another line (about 25' works good around here) and the other end gets tied to the anchor. The ends of the anchor bridle get tied to the bridle attachment points at the hull. On my boat I have replaced the pins that hold the bridles at the hulls with shackles. This gives me a place to tie the anchor bridle to. On a 16 I think you have a place to tie off to already.

I have a furler so with my jib rolled I center my traveler, lightly snug my main and the boat will sit nicely. On the 16 you almost have to drop the jib to get it to behave at anchor. If your worried about the wave action working the loose rig all you have to do is take a line and tie it to your trap wires on one side and tie the other end to your shroud chain plate. This should keep the rig from slamming around. Having said that I don't leave my boat moored. I will anchor it overnight while camping.

Of course this all depends are where you sail and how deep the water is. We have fairly shallow water around here with sand bottom and no surf to deal with so what I suggested works good here.

Some good points about having an anchor on board. Depending on where you sail once the boat goes in the water you don't have to drag it up on the beach wearing the hulls, If you capsize, anchoring will hold the bows into the wind which should make it easier to right. It can also keep you from drifting into things while capsized like docks, rocks, pilings,etc.

Hope this helps, Any ?'s please ask. I can post some PIC'S of my set up if you like.

Attachment; my boat at anchor.

Here's some other pevious talk about anchoring.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...amp;Main=17771&Search=true#Post17771

Whisk at anchor, Frenchy's Cove, Anacapa Island, Channel Islands National Park, September, 2001.

Fortress FX7, 200' of 1/4" rode, bridle on bows, wind 10 knots, later became 20 knots, waves 2' that later became 3',
current approximately 1.5 knots, depth approximately 35', distance from shore approximately 100 yards.
(10-15 minute swim against a cross current, whew!)

Anchoring by Alan Thompson, the king of catamaran anchoring.

Gary, is that where you anchored it or is that where it wound up?

Yes!

Good answer!

Anchoring Tests results.

This great anchoring advice guys but Catman we got to talk about the telltales on that main. How do you read those, in gusts over 50mph......

When it's blowing like that......... I don't look up.