New Centreboards

Hi all,

am about to make a major modification to Thrice Bitten. Have purchased a set of couple of year old design, A class Flyer centreboards and cases , which I am going to get put into my 15 year old Faye hulls (it currently has very wide, wider than boyer centreboards) .

No surprises that I will get them installed as far back as possible (which is where the back of the current cases is), the interesting bit is that I intend to get them installed vertically (most Mossies angle them back the maximum 10 degrees), so what do you think?

Hi Gary,

10 degrees forward, port canted out 35 degrees, starboard canted in 26 degrees... Might give me a chance to catch you some time

On a more serious note... what's the thinking behind verticle? Is it because they were that way in the Flyer or do you have a theory?

Cheers

Hi Simon,

why would you imagine I would have a theory?

Well it does seem that all cats that do not have measurement restrictions on distance back that centreboards are placed built in recent years, have vertical centreboards and that incudes the Flyer ones I have bought. As far as I can see the only reason for raking centreboards back is when you want to move your Centre of Lateral Resistance further back and rules do not allow it.

I am hoping that the smaller centreboards vertical will not move CLR forward much if any at all, as the rudder blades will actualy account for a larger pecentage of the CLR, than previously, helping to balance the fact that the tip of the centreboards will be further forward.

Now for the theory .
When sailing long sailboards with swinging centreboards as the wind increased we found a effect we called railing up. This was caused by depressing the lee rail of the board on purpose which as the speed increased resulted in the centreboard lifting the board out of the water and helping it to plane, it also allowed you to point higher as you balanced the forces of the increased lift from the centreboard. No surprise I hear you say, you where using the centreboard as a lifting foil. When the wind increased it would flip the board over, to stop this we would rake the centreboard back.

My theory, raking centreboards back reduces lift . On sailboards we use to even rake them forward in light winds, which increased lift even more, but made them very hard to control .

So there you have it, I hope to get more lift which should improve windward performance . But expect it will make the boat twitchier? something I am willing to live with, I hope

Hi Guys
I'm new to the Mosquito class and I have just started to build my first one. I was Just reading your thread about boards and was wondering if you could point me in the right direction is there a reconmended board and rudder width and length that most people use other than the specs on the rules form?
Thanks

Hi TBA and welcome to the swarm. I hope that your building all goes to plan and you have your new Mozzie on the water for the start of next season. Where do you plan to sail/race and what is your sail number ? Any details would be greatly appreciated for addition to the Mozzie register.

If you don't want to make it public just send me a PM through this forum site.

In terms of centreboard width and length there are many variations but most have a width of around 250 mm and a length just greater than 1 m. My current centreboards are 10 inches wide by 1020 mm long. These were cut down from the original timber boards which were much wider and longer and I have seen no adverse effects.

Regards,

Peter

Hi Gary,

My ancient Mozzie had vertical boards and when I made the change to the 10 degrees rake it made made an enormous difference. That little shift in the centre of lateral resitance appeared to reduce the weather helm significantly and allowed me to set the rudders up close to vertical. I also reduced the width at the same time so that may also have had some effect.

Mind you the aft edge of the centreboard case is not as far rearward as the modern Mozzie so that could account for some difference (3305 mm versus 3353 mm allowable)

Jeremy Pearse did some experimentation with "A" class centreboards without much success. Not sure if they were 9" wide but they just didn't have the same tracking ability as the 10" boards. I'm sure Jeremy could give you some clarification.

Regards,

Peter

Thanks for the reply and feed back Peter. Sail number 1820 (on the plans any way)I currently skipper a Nacra 5.8 out of Cleveland yacht club in Brisbane while i build the Mozzie but I live on the Gold Coast so when the boat is built probberly both places at this stage. I bourght an old hull mould from Jim Boyer recently and the hulls will be under way shortly, I know they are an older design mould but for my first boat these will do fine. Your tips on the foils are much appreciated, I can start to work on these in between the hulls. Time is my biggest problem at the moment so I'll just keep ticking along
Thanks once again and look foward to joining the Mozzie clan
Cheers
Damien

Hi all,

my new boards are 220 x 1005, effective length 550 under the hull. Old boards where 290 x 965, effective length 510 under the hull.

No doubt placing cases as far back as legal in hull is essential, vertical as opposed to raked 10 degrees I guess I will find out. or

am i that bigger of a threat that you have to change your boat around hahahaha

Matt you're on the right track, but in fact it is I that have just bought the new sail :P. Time will tell if this is to beat you, Gary or both hahaha.

Hi M & M,

my theory is never stop trying to go faster . If I keep moving the goal posts hopefully you whipper snippers won't kick any goals .

Oh I have ordered new rudders also.

So who is the Red one and who is the Yellow one?

Hi Guy's
Thanks for the tips on the board sizes. Before I start you wouldnt have sudgestions for rudders as well? When I build the boards I can make the rudders at the same time, any help would be graitfull
Thanks once again
Regards
Damien

Hey Peter please check you PM Thanks
Damien

Have built MANY Mozzies over the years, Angle them back as far as you can. My early boats were forward and as I gained more knowledge on the construction of these little boaties I brought them back, As I saw elswhere in this forum, they do ease the weather helm so much and if the mast is raked the right amount, you can have neutral rudder helm and No rudder track.

AJ ex Dicken Cider. 1777

AJ,
Your boat name kills me.. a few years ago I saw pics of it on an Auzzie website, and I thought it was a sponsor.. Took me a while to get it.

Hi AJ
Good to see you on the forum at last.

Gary is planning to put them back to the max measurement, but not raked. Because they are narrower than the ones we have been using that also helps get the CofE a bit further back. Overall his CofE may end up slightly forward of the current boats but it is going to be very close.

It's just a question of whether the possible gains from having them vertical will outweigh any disadvantage from moving the CofE slightly forward. We will see...

Maybe he should consider tapering the Centre case and run a gasket/ 2 strips of mylar wil do it as used on the tornado's. that way, the top rear of the box is at the rearmost point. the bottom rear of the centre case is angled back to allow 10 degrees rake and the front of the centre case is Vertical. 1 wedge inserted from the top only made of acetal or even better Polypropelene or nylon, front or rear of the case held in by some easily released method can act at a guide to protect the leadng and trailing edges. but they can be used to set the angle he may wish to try. I guess he can try one forward. 1 back and see how it behaves on opposite tacks. this Wedge system can be kept in place at all times. It may offer a way to make the mozzie behave better in different conditions. Just a thought I guess. Hows the sailing going anyway? I hae been tempted to build another Mozzie. Had my enthusiasm crushed with all that big stick bullsh** going on. Maybe I should just stay out of it an dstir the pot, hahahaha. Catchya buddy
DickenCider 1777

maybe an option is to scrap the symetric boards and go to an asymetric centreboard design. It does work., but the right shap eto get the right lift will mean a board just under the maximum thickness. They do work having experimented with them previously. Only dribbling this end...

Go on AJ, build another one, you have to much talent to let it go to waste. We are having some great racing down at Normanville on Sundays in summer, sometimes 10 Mosquitos on the water.

Darryn
Mosquito 1782
Bullet

I am so tempted. just to test this "spirit of the class" bull##it rule I had thrown at me. I guess I can give certain individuals something to ban or outlaw. I do have some very interesting ideas and yet again it will test the waters. Not many Mozzies up here in cairns so I can secretly invent new ways in private. Is the big stick issue dead??? Hope so. who has a copy of the building regulations? have they been updated?? any new design changes I should be aware of??
Cheers. AJ

I reckon a Mozzie would fit in alright at Cairns yacht club. I had a look at there site, seems to be some cat sailing going on at Ellis beach. I raced my Mozzie in Townsville, mostly dinghys there back then.

I have not heard of the spirit of the class rule. I cant place where that is defined either. Personally I find the class to be progressive, compared to Lasers and Flying Fifteens which I now race too, the Mozzy Associations are open to new ideas and practical, sensible proposals which wont obsolete the entire fleet overnight are voted in at AGM's.

I just copied and pasted this out of the constitution
"Promote the development of the Mosquito class catamaran and control the building rules and
class restrictions to ensure consistency" Nothing about spirit their.


You could always go this path with your new ideas.
"A member may propose an alteration to the plans, specifications and/or restrictions by submitting
a notice of motion detailing such alteration to the State/Territory Association for endorsement and
forwarding to the National Association"
Which, you know, gets voted on by the members.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~nmcca/doc/Mosquito_BRR.pdf

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~nmcca/doc/NMCC_Measurement_Form.pdf

I heard the big stick is still in use

Darryn

Darryn's got all the right links there. Nothing of any consequence has changed in them for a couple of decades.

The racing is very good here in Vic as well. It's always a tough race at the front of the fleet. Helped by the fact that all the new boats are pretty much identical.

The "Spirit of the rules" sounds more like an opinion or state of mind than a rule. I imagine it would get mentioned if someone built something wacky and tried to call it a Mosquito. I mean a set of rules as simple as the Mosquito's are always going to have a hole or a weakness somewhere which would mean something completely off-the-wall could be built without breaking them - but what would be the point?

Most of us sail Mosquitoes for the competition, the social side, and for the pleasure of sailing a boat that simply works. There's not much point going to all the trouble of building a boat just to prove there are flaws in the rules. Might as well build an F16 where anything goes.

The tall rig never went anywhere. It was obvious early on that the mast section would have to be replaced as well - leading to a sequence of inevitable changes which would have ended up with the Mozzie turning into the Taipan (again). No point

I believe there is a F16 in Cairns now, if you want to test theories that is the class to do it, nothing more interesting in Mossies than fitting vertical centreboards which A's did a million years ago.

The new boats these days are the max dimensions, and they have been performing really well. But its the sailors that actually picked up the game. the hot competition here in vic is that hot that made the class generally have become quicker. and neally all boats are the same. To me my personal opinion i dont like a class like the the "A-Class" and "f16" cos there are too many options and veribles. i like the boats the same and it comes down to the sailor on how they sail the boat and strategies and tactics.

Matt Unko 1816

Hi Gary,

How'd the verticle boards work out?

Cheers

Hey you can't rush boat builders, still waiting on it being finished, hoping to sail it at Club Opening this weekend.

hey gary, do u want to sell your rudder blades cos will might be interrested

matt

Hi Mate,
I race at Tinaroo, would love to see a Mozzie up there!!!! I've always been intrigued by the "mini tornado", nice classic timeless lines. beautiful boats.
Chocko

"mini Tornado"????

im pretty sure the tornado (before rig change anyway) is a mossie on steroids, i mean the mossie is older so they must have copied us..lol

Hi mate,
Yeah, the T was released after the Mozzie.
Why no square tops yet? they would be amazing with a square top and a kite!!! I might even be convinced to try one.
Chock

Well and truly got the kite , don't need the square top, the heavy mast to hold it up would slow the boat down too much .

Hi all,

centreboards worked brilliantly, Frecheville & Heeney boat builders did a great job. Looks really solid and a great fit around the boards allows very litte water in the case. No gurgling no humming, just the sweet feel of less drag , boat balanced just as it used to and steering felt more responsive . Now for the new rudder blades, hopefully they will arrive this week, but will be a few weeks before fitting , as I have to make up push rods and fittings.

Did 2 races yesterday in around 15knots of breeze. 6 mossies raced, 3 x Spin, 2 x sloop and 1 cat. I won both races . Was a awesome first days sailing for the season, will be hard to get a better day .

I should add to Gary's report on his first two races and say that he completely demolished Peter and myself - upwind and down. We were there, chasing, but nowhere near him. We have some work to do!

Of course Peter and myself both failed the winter boat maintenance test which didn't help. Off the start line for the second race we both sheeted on to the sound of loud bangs. My gooseneck bolt snapped (15 years old - not bad), and Peter's mainsheet strop exploded - well vapourised really, as only the ends were left!

"The new boats these days are the max dimensions, and they have been performing really well. But its the sailors that actually picked up the game."

As for me having a great boat and great sailor, it will comes out as an excellent.

Hi All,

new Rudder Blades from the Fibreglass Factory S.A. (Tony Barrett). Arrived today , beautifully finished like all his work . Love the shape of them , from the same mould as Niel Joiner's. Just have to get them fitted up now .

About three weeks ago you tried to tell me that Snow Skiing was more expensive than Sailing Gary.....

BOAT = Break Out Another Thousand!

OK you don't have to rubb it in guys . Yes a new boat doesn't look so expensive now, specialy after the centreboard cases .

Question about how everyone is using their boards. When you pull them up down wind do you just give them a tug or have you carefully marked a line where they are flush with the bottom and lift them to that point each time?

The Sailor are the really one who pick up the game.

---------------
Gifts for Men

Usualy I have just pulled on rope, which I think has allways left some hanging out the bottom. Most Mossie centreboards I have seen have been cut with a angle on the bottom, which doesn't match the bottom of the boat, leaving some angle hanging out the bottom at least.

My new centreboards leave quite a bit out the bottom when you pull on the rope, as they are longer than normal mossie boards, I may muck around pulling up to the bit where they start to taper to the elliptical tip in light winds, depends on what is going on around me I think.

Hey Gary all the best with the operation.... I've one small question with regards the new centerboards. Did you have to rake the mast back much?

No haven't changed mast rake at all yet.