which beach cats are most pitchpole resistant?

I used to own a Hobie 18 before moving overseas for 10 years. Recently I went out with a friend on his 18 and experienced the same old thrill of sailing so fast <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />, but also the usual irritation at having to always keep such a good eye on the bows. Call me a wimp, but I really hate pitchpoling! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Do you have any thoughts on which beach cats in the 16-20 foot range have the best pitchpoling resistance?

I sail in sometimes fairly rough conditions on the San Francisco Bay and in the ocean off of Santa Cruz, usually with a crew weight of about 350 lbs.

As a start, the owner of the Hobie 18 did claim that the Nacra Inter 20 was much better in this regard.

Thanks for any inputs!

The cats fitted with T-foil rudders; you can't beat that.

Otherwise the longer the hull the slower the pitchpole dive. They still pitchpole but in a more relaxed way.

Wouter

You will probably find this subject covered earlier on this forum. Volume in hulls, hull length and sail area are important factors. In my mind Hobies are among the worst and Infusion the best. That's why I have one since sea is ruff here too. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Length, hull volume and T foils !

I've sailed boats at 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 and 20 feet.

My Stealth F16 with T foils is VERY stable, never had any issues with pitchpoling; Stuffed it in a few times but not (yet) pitched it in. Similar to boats much longer.

I think Hobie 14 and 16's are by far the worst!

it takes alot to pitchpole a supercat..... i love how the bow will dive under the water and pop right back out without any complaints

Gunboat 60, oh wait you said beachcat, Nacra 20...

T foils!? We don't no stinkin T foils!

Don't knock it before you tried it Ding !

Wouter

i can drive my Mystere bows underwater without any problem. I HEAR up to the front beam (but wouldnt want to try).

We have 6 Mysteres 5.0 - 6.0 and i have never heard of any of them pitching over.

I'll not have another boat without them if the class rules allow. One day I'd like an A class, maybe they will allow them by then.

I've had my F16 in as far as the 2nd batten on the mainsail, Spi pole under water and the spi sock was filling up; I was VERY surprised that it did not go in!!

I support Ding's position.

Theres no replacement for displacement.

Well, in the right hands anything can be pitched. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Super Dave and I did it once on the 6.0 traveling 20+ mph. Good fun. Mystere's have very buoyant bows. Super cats are good but they're so wet to ride on at speed.

If the mast is too far forward on the H-18 it will tend to dive the bows easier.

Lol! I will keep that in mind next time i have my front beam underwater!

I guess i will have to try harder!

Look at you being all poetic.

The choice of business travellers everywhere.

Just because I can't post a photo...

http://sailseries.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=84&g2_itemId=4217

Or.....

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/catamaran/video/xtn1j_catamaran-pitchpole_sport

Did the skip ever hit the water? Karl was that you? If so, well done sir!

No, I can't take credit for that one.

Wow, I'd hate to be out on the wire when my Gunboat 62 pitchpoled!

It was amazing to see the cat in that video clip take a dive in what appeared to be rather mild conditions.

This clip shows some nice pitchpoles and capsizes from an unusual angle: http://www.dailymotion.com/related/xtn1j...-a-bath_extreme

I did try the search function first but I didn't have much luck. Ok, I admit I didn't look very long since the site was responding like chilly molasses last night. . .

Not that I could currently afford one, but any idea how the Infusion and the N20 compare for keeping on their feet?

Thanks for the inputs, guys!

I think it was Olli and Kelly on a Nacra 20 at the 2006 Alter Cup in Pensacola Beach. We had a west-southwest breeze that day, so the windward mark was a little sheltered, making the water deceptively flat - probably around 12-15 knots. Stick a N20 mast up that high and don't twist off the main and you get some fun stuff.

That is the venue for the F18 Championship in October and the Area D South event in November, by the way. I love flat water and seabreeze. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The water may have looked it - but those were far from mild conditions. That was the Alter Cup two years ago in P'cola beach - Ollie and Kelly Jason aggressively going for the roll around the boat in front of them...until that puff leveled them. It was very very gusty that day and we saw a lot of flips.

Me too my friend!

You can't pitch an ARC 21, I have been trying.....

Never speak in the absolute except for death & taxes. It has been done on an ARC 22.

Kris Hathaway
F-16

Call me anytime Dayneger. I'll give you some local input, Santa Cruz and SF are my specialty. Also, alot depends on how you rig certain boats for the conditions.

(831) 359-5918

See the attached link. We know its not a Hobie Tiger....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVkqpzI3lbg

I must say I've stuffed the bows of my Nacra 6.0, thinking a pitchpole was in my future....only to have her shake it off.

Bill Nieuwkerk

The Mast on an ARC 22 is 6 feet taller than the ARC 21. I never pitched a boat until I sailed the SC 20 with Tall Rig which has the same mast height as the ARC 22. I have stuffed the short rig many times without pitching but the extra 6 feet make a huge difference.

arbo06 and I burried the tall rig pretty far a few times in 30+ winds with out pitching it though.

We stuffed the bows of my N20 far enough in to break the spinn pole (mid-pole not end) and still recovered! We were doing around 25 knots in the Great Texas in about 6 foot seas only about 1 mile from the finish in the lead. When we got the pole stowed on the tramp we ended up in 3rd. The guys behind us got a hell of a show. I don't think any other boat could handle that. I constanly stuff the FX-1 to the cross beam and recover.

Lee/Team Chums

Lee:

Do you want to share our 5.8 experience with the group?

Famous last words - "this is a 5.8 they doooooooooooooooooon't slurp, gurgle, choke, gurgle slurp"

good pitchpole recovery here from 18 secs

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=EYsF-wtdjEE

i'd say it didn't complete the pitchpole, or then go over sideways, due to 3 things

1). it's an old nacra 5.2 with lots of bow volume, really important, and lipless decks, not quite as important but still helps "pop-back" instead of "dig-in" when the hulls are at 45degrees. no coincidence that pretty much all new cat designs look very similar to tom rolland's 32 year old design

2. with 1 guy firmly planted on the tramp when it does dig in he doesn't go flying forward of the main beam. that's really important as 75kg suddenly going from the back half of the boat to the front means 150kg change in pitching moment. almost guaranteed to drag the mast too far forward and over. AND staying on the windward hull also prevents the sideways tip-over that often happens after a half pitchpole when 1 of the crew's weight is suddenly off the windward hull

3. the helm stays on the wire the whole way through without getting forward of the mainbeam. skill, luck or lots of grippy hull tape? whatever, it works

I didn't want to say it, but it recovers really well for such a small boat.

That is some sweet camera work <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I was just thinking of the vids I took that day when I was reading the thread but hadn't gotten to your post yet. I think a lot of competitors were taken by surprise rounding the mark that day.

Pitchpoled yesterday on a reach on my boat (blade obviously). Couldn't drop the trav in time. Not a very violent one- one of those "crap... here we go... nope.. wait... I think we can save it... well... nope... crap (splash)"

The only reason for what I said, was to keep you from panicing. It worked! We violently pitchpoled and you enjoyed the ride all the way to the water. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lee <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Who was testing who my boy? Wasn't the first time I pitch poled that boat, nor the last - remember I had Sponge "what do I do now" Bob for a crew.

I guess you thought you were dealing with some Yuppie wana- be Scum; didn't anticipate my heating it up driving into that that wave did ya <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I'll never forget the look on your face as we were flying though the air.

Anyway - hope you were gonna make it for the Tri-Point maybe next year.

I ran the Supercat 20(std rig) pretty hard for 4 years, always looking for high winds, and I only stuffed it once. It was the most pitch resistant of the 6 or 8 designs I'ved owned for any length of time.

Dave

It is a topic that I tremble at re-starting, but what is so wrong with T-Foils on the rudders? (See the thread from last year...) Like training wheels on a new bike, or something? Looks like a solid idea to me.

Interesting new video here, about 10 seconds in: new stealth video

Looks simple. Sure beats replacing damaged rigging, etc when diving and flipping...

Also, I wonder about the new WETA's ability is nose dive. Looks highly doable...

Ok, so far we have recommendations for long hull lengths with high-volume bows, which certainly makes sense. In this camp we have votes for:

- Supercat 20 with standard rig, very hard to pitchpole but with comments that it can be a very wet ride going fast. Also a vote for the 19.

- Mysteres 6.0 (and the whole line?) has very buoyant bows

- Nacra 20 buoyant bows, some say the rear beam hits a lot in the chop

- ARC 21

- Nacra Infusion

The FX-1 will stuff but is apparently hard to actually pitch.

The other approach recommendation is for T-foils even on a 16 foot boat, specifically the Stealth in this case. Being able to sail one-up or two-up sounds like a nice advantage with the smaller boat.

Would anyone be willing to make a ranked list of all the designs you've sailed, say on a scale to 10 with 10 being the ideal performance? The format could look like this:

Boat Model----Stuffing resistance----Pitching resistance----Speed----Fun to Sail

Hobie 18 _____________5 __________________6 ____________5 ________6
Hobie 16 _____________2 __________________3 ____________3 ________5

Some of you have sailed many boat types, so it would be great to learn from your comparisons. (The numbers I mentioned are just examples).

Jeremy, thanks for the offer of advice! Apparently I just missed your store hours, so I'll try again on Tuesday.

It's a off-topic for this thread, but if someone would like to see the (beautifully-designed) WETA's ability to handle heavy wind, here's a nice video of it. You can certainly trip them over their bows and the righting procedure doesn't sound so speedy:

http://www.norbanks.com/NorBankSailing_video/04/index.htm

Nice pitchpoles at 1:30 and 2:40, among others. Not what I'm looking for right now, but they're definitely cool boats.

Back to the beach cats, thanks for all of your inputs so far! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

to be fair to the weta it looks like they were doing everything to make it pitchpole and that meant leaving the roller-furling gennaker up and then hunting for the pitchpole

something that would be pretty difficult for the beginner to do accidentally

Each time I see the Weta video's I notice the same things. Not enough volume in the ama's or length of the beams; these things pop underwater putting the breaks on so often ! And the fact that you can see this boat go over sideways and pitchpole more often then a Hobie 14 ! Usually it does this after submerging the lee ama at speed, leading the impression that the whole boat could become significantly more controllable when the ama's are up to the job of floating partly above the waterline when the sails are powered up.

I take everybody else word on it that they are a bundle of fun to sail, but when watching the video's I can take away the impression that the design could have been better and that a catamaran of the same length would have also performed better. That flattish bow section of the centre hull really doesn't allow proper dive recovery as a more rounded and narrow cat hull does, right ?

Maybe it is just me.

Wouter

think they've recorded 16knots on 1, that's pretty quick for 14feet]

also think you'll find the handicap rating it's got, provisional, is faster than a hobie14

certainly the newer 14 foot cats would perform better than a hobie14 but how many of them seem to sail happily with 1, 2 or 3 on board and have 2 part carbon masts that are a breeze for even kids to put up?

Look at the Nacra 4.5 as a catamaran that beats the Weta on all points including price. And I think the Nacra 4.5 comes with a devided mast on request and it was first launched halveway through the 1980's. It does have an (spreaderless) aluminium mast but it shouldn't be to replace that with a carbon one if that is done in series production as is the case with the Weta.


See for details :

Nacra 4.5 (2-up- 2 sails) : http://www.schrs.com/index.php?page=class&id=135
Weta (2-up, 3 sails) : http://www.schrs.com/index.php?page=class&id=222


Actually the H14 is rated faster then the Weta unless you allow the weta to carry three sails (24 sq. mtr.) and the Hobie only 1 sail (11 sq. mtr.), but the latter is hardly a fair comparison.

Other boats coming to mind are the Hobie Wave when fitted with more then just a mainsail.


What I would like to know is how the Weta handles getting out and getting in through the surf. I know the Nacra 4.5 does fine here.

I hate to be a party pooper here, but the Weta looks like alot of fun but not really that well designed when compared to existing boats. I mean 128 kg for a 14 footer is not mindblowing is it, especially when the 1970 Hobie 14 (no carbon) was already 109 kg, Hobie wave (roto) 115 kg ?

And a 8.32 sq. mtr. mainsail, that is just a tad larger then a Laser dinghy (Wave 10 sq. mtr, nacra 4.5 13 sq. mtr). The biggest benefit to the Weta is that 13 sq.mtr. reacher sail fit that one to a Wave (as Rick White did) or a Nacra 4.5 and see a performance boost well beyond the Weta.

On the specs and video alone the Weta doesn't get there. So I guess it much be a thrill to sail in order to have it sell that well. Probably more a case of proper marketing in the way Hobie and Nacra typically get wrong.

Wouter

I'd say there are four things that help prevent pitchpoles:

1) Long high flotation bows
2) Bruce foils forward of the CE
3) T foils
4) Automatic sheet release systems

Cheers,

Whats that about long hull lengths? Right at about 2 minutes and 4 seconds

http://tinyurl.com/5lkq4e