The whole point of using T foils on a cat (two, one on each rudder) is to greatly reduce pitching, which is exactly what they do whether fixed or adjustable. Who the hell would want to have to adjust T foils on a cat when fixed foils work so well anyway, and, for a cat, it is very dubious whether having adjustable foils could even be used IN ACTUAL PRACTICE on the water to advantage. It is easy to sit back and debate all sorts of scenarios about “if you did this” and “if you did that” and argue endlessly about some conceived resulting advantage – THEN THROW OUT THE BABY WITH THE BATH WATER – Why don’t you at least wait until some one actually tries before you decide. Banning adjustable T foils when non really exist for cats is the same as convicting some one of a heinous crime in their absence (and later finding out you were in error)
I have tried and found that for me adjustable foils were an abomination on a cat (Good for two handed mono hulls that by our standards are slow and allow “time” though) and there is no need to ban them as I don’t think anyone will ever come up with a system of adjustable T foils for a cat that will ever be used.
I call this whole debate nothing more than a “storm in a teacup”
Mast tip weight though is something else – I think it should be removed – I feel strongly that it is something that will, in the future restrict the class rather than what it’s intended intention now is. I put it in the category of there being certain dimensions that are necessary to define the object, but too many “restriction” are never good (particularly in the long term) Good forward thinking is what makes the difference between long life and a seven day wonder and I don’t really think “mast tip” is long term thinking but more like an unnecessary restriction that may come back to bite you on the bum.

against banning adjustable foils..

Had some experience with the adjustable I14 foils.. We made ours very cheaply.. So money isnt an issue..

As for tweeking and gaining advantage we could use this argument with downhalls, outhauls cunnighams ect..

one can do this by weight distribution.. proposing to ban this as well?

I beleive all this debate is great,if you ban tip weight it will automatically start the have and the have not divisions same result wiil be if T foils are introduced.
I beleive alluminium masts where used to keeps costs down and also durability ,maybe carbon has come a long way from the early days .
As for splintering a class you guys/gals are standing on the edge of a slope with a lot of other guys/gals standing behind watching what is about to happen because if the class starts bringing in changes that will increase costs on boats and maybe repair issues they might go else where or stay where they are, because 1 in all in (take the A class for example)
anyway thats my view from someone standing behind

Simon,

I think the answer to your question on retrospective banning of a development can be found here:

2.6 Spirit of the Rule

2.6.1 In case of doubt, the intention of the rule makers, which is the spirit, shall
take precedence over the letter of the rule.

2.6.2 The spirit of the rule includes, among other principles, the following considerations :

2.6.2.A Preserving general equality in overall performance between craft of different make, accepting small variations, in order to guarantee fair racing between designs of different make.

2.6.2.B Maximizing the freedom to optimize a design to personal preference and to improve the performance of a given crew and craft through refinement.

2.6.2.C The allowance to gently improve, by design, the handling and overal behaviour of a craft in small controlled steps which don't upset the balance in the class to the extent that the continued existence and growth of the class are no longer guaranteed.

or:

2.7.3 All amendments, changes or additions shall be placed on one pre-next-season notice unless the Formula 16 authoriy considers it to be essential to act immediately to prohibit or penalize a dangerous feature.

So the answer is Yes, such a development could well be banned retrospectively.

The cost of an Alu mast per mast is surprising low. The only real drawback of alu mast production is the fact you have to run a batch of them, typically 250 kg or 500 kg per production run.

I may not disclose the real production cost of an Alu mast section, I can tell you however that John Pierce earlier statement about the price difference is quite close.

For that price difference we can even have a new die build for each batch of 17 to 34 masts, which will improve accuracy and even allow the masts to be redesigned with each batch if progressing experiences demands that.

This is just to answer Davids questions and this is not an argment in voting for or against the proposed changes.

Wouter

Would a nice compromise not be to rule that it may not be possible that the angle of the T-foils relative to the hulls is adjusted while racing ?

Thus allowing adjustment between races and still leave the room for experimentation open without the fear of rising costs as there is no need for expensive control system when you can't adjust them while racing (sailing).

This is also the way we adressed the fears that were around a while back about systems that could rerake or heel the rig towards the wind while sailing/racing. Now people have only staymasters on their boats so they can adjust the trim in the break between races but not during races. This has proven to allow maximal adjustment of trim without adding any real costs.

Wouter

Ncik,

You moth example is an excellent one.

The Moths spent considerable time and money developing their system and very good it it too. It's also not Cheap.

As this development was going on, the 3 moth sailors I know all said "I'll never go foiling, I cannot afford it". 18 months later they were foiling as "I had no choice, the class was going that way and the non foiling boats were dieing". I consider this is the risk we take with the F16 class - we may end up with 2 types of F16; those that use variable trimm and those that do not.

The are now very few foiling Moths sailing sailing in events and they are NOT competitive in wind over 7 kts This may happen to the F16 class.

As John says, the F16GC could ban these boats retrospectively. Do we want to do this ?

From what I can gather, if a vote was taken to ban variable trim rudders it would probably not pass. The class as a whole needs to understand the implications of this. People who way "lets see what happen" I can understand, I am just wanting people to understand the potential for this system.

(I have one designed that would be automatic for sailing up wind and require "setting once" for a downwind leg). If I win the lottery I would develop this. I believe that the possible banning under the "spirit of the rule" gives the class a "get-out-of-jail" free card that may well prevent anyone taking the risk.)


People above have expressed worries about who we could attract to the class with the proposed change to the tip weight rule. We are activly PREVENTING people from taking part as they cannot right the boat single handed.