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#108911 - 06/04/07 03:20 PM Re: Upwind speed (Question) [Re: sailwave]
scooby_simon Offline

Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 3526
Loc: Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote:


>> did the OOD at the Nations cup record Lap times.
>> I was catching up the A's on the first race (must
>> remember to count laps).

http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/results/2007/200705af16.htm

Scroll down for individual race results.

The nearest an F16 came to the 1st A was probably Paul - 1:22 behind in a 45 min race...




Colin,

I mean laps not races. In the first race I was about 400 yards ahead of Dave and on the last lap, I think I was stating to tag onto the back of the last A's.

I'd really like to see individual lap times for Race 1 if they exist. In fact looking at the results this is partly shown by finishing times. Yvonne did 4 laps (and last A class to finish) and finished at 13:29:13, I did 5 laps and finished at 13:29:55; Dave Tugwell did 4 1/2 laps (ish)and finished at 13:29:25. But the last lap for me was by far the slowest. This is the info I'm after if it exists.
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#108912 - 06/04/07 03:22 PM Re: Upwind speed (Question) [Re: scooby_simon]
sailwave Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/27/01
Posts: 254
Loc: Gower, Wales, UK
Yeah, I misread your post - I'll dig them out.

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#108913 - 06/04/07 03:26 PM Re: Upwind speed (Question) [Re: sailwave]
scooby_simon Offline

Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 3526
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Quote:

Yeah, I misread your post - I'll dig them out.




Thanks Colin,

The A's were generally smoking us anyway. But the first race was the race I was sailing best and did not make to many mistakes.
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#108914 - 06/04/07 03:37 PM Re: Upwind speed (Question) [Re: scooby_simon]
sailwave Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/27/01
Posts: 254
Loc: Gower, Wales, UK
Most of them were smoking me too

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#108915 - 06/04/07 03:42 PM Re: Upwind speed (Question) [Re: scooby_simon]
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: West coast of Norway
John and Mark,

I try to look at the re-routing of the main halyard with a neutral position.
1: The Tornado fleet dont invent everything, as their creative pool is limited to fleet members and reliability is a concern.
2: The Shearwater dont look too fast (I would not know) by the photos on their website. Looks like they have centerboards not daggers and the hullshape is kind of V'ish. Would the relatively small difference in drag/lift be noticeable on that platform?
3: 2.5 to 6 minutes delta upwind is a lot, and so it's worth researching now that the horse is out of the stable.
4: Shearwater assocs. website crashes my Firefox every time


I got to say, if I were planning a really secret weapon for a major event, I would also like to keep it quiet. But then again, I would not go racing with it. Two boat testing is the way to go if you want to keep something hidden. The openess is partly what makes this forum so cool.

I suppose the increased pitch resistance from T-foils (like the ones Darryls F-14s use) could help neutralizing the advantage of the A's longer hulls upwind.

Mark, good of you to kick some Tornado ass. Got to say tough that the boat is not easy to get the most from. Sailor skill makes up for so much speed on the boat.

One question. What will 20kgs difference in crew weight do to your pointing ability? How about 40kgs?

Second question. How many go low after a tack to build virtual wind before heading up? Is it worth it?

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#108916 - 06/04/07 04:33 PM Re: Upwind speed (Question) [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
Mark P Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 953
Loc: Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Question one; I can't answer as I don't have a crew of any description (Unless 20 Marlboro lights count)
Question two; When it's windy I stay very high after a tack until I'm safely out on the wire and then bear away to a proper course. In medium winds when I'm not aiming to roll tack it's beat to beat or as close as I can judge it. In light winds I don't move across the boat until it has tacked completely and has started to make headway on the new course. slightly lower than normal as the main has been dropped off, the new windward hull often lifts and at this point I'll move over (mainsheet at the ready just in case). I find using this method of tacking doesn't upset things as much as moving over when there is no wind in the sail.
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#108917 - 06/04/07 05:01 PM Re: Upwind speed (Question) [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
Jalani Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 1382
Loc: Essex, UK
Rolf,
Try updating the Java on your computer, that might solve your FireFox problem.

The Shearwaters aren't particularly fast, that's true, but they've been around a verrrry long time and have quite sophisticated rigs (there was at least one square top main in regular use back in the late '70s).

They had very slender wing masts with 3 sets of spreaders and airflow was critical. I notice that the more recent boats have masts more similar to the Tornado section. I should think that, being a development class, they've experimented with just about every combination of sail control and routing imaginable!

Interesting then that a lot of the 'top' boats still have a pretty 'standard' layout that is comparable to most modern cats. The Shearwaters even had curved tracks before the 'As' !
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Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538

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#108918 - 06/04/07 06:19 PM Re: Upwind speed (Question) [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe
Quote:


3: 2.5 to 6 minutes delta upwind is a lot, and so it's worth researching now that the horse is out of the stable.






Allow me to set the record straight, before anyone misunderstand me and think that that lead was caused ONLY be rerouting the spi halyard.

Alot more was tweaked on that boat then only the spi halyard and it was a club race. The skipper sailed well and his adjusted his rig the best in the changing conditions. It went from light to strong winds over the course of 2 heats and 7 laps. Most of gains were surely from sailing well and not making large mistakes. All this combined with his sailing skills (=good) caused the outcome.

In the second race the rest of the fleet got their acts together and the lead was shrunk to 2.5 min. This weekend we'll see the next installment and all the other boats will have had a few more sails as training down their belts.

So all is very preliminary although I really tried and simply could not hold on to him upwind. I could with respect to the others in the fleet. I would have loved to have his upwind performance.

Wouter


Edited by Wouter (06/04/07 06:20 PM)
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#108919 - 06/05/07 01:22 AM Re: Upwind speed (Question) [Re: Wouter]
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: West coast of Norway
Curved tracks even with a spi? What would the advantage be unless the boats dont build much apparant wind when going downhill?

I got the impression that the impressive deltas to windward was down to the re-routing of the halyard. Now it's sailor ability and a series of improvements. Not sure what to belive


John, I dont think it's Java crashing Firefox. The applet they use for navigation works well enough, but there is some kind of silly Javascript/DHTML 'transitions' in use:
Quote:


<meta http-equiv="Page-Enter" content="revealTrans(Duration=2.0,Transition=2)">
content="revealTrans(Duration=2.0,Transition=3)">




Javascript is a can of worms, and DHTML and abomination..

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#108920 - 06/05/07 01:30 AM Re: Upwind speed (Question) [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
scooby_simon Offline

Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 3526
Loc: Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote:

Curved tracks even with a spi? What would the advantage be unless the boats dont build much apparant wind when going downhill?

I got the impression that the impressive deltas to windward was down to the re-routing of the halyard. Now it's sailor ability and a series of improvements. Not sure what to belive


John, I dont think it's Java crashing Firefox. The applet they use for navigation works well enough, but there is some kind of silly Javascript/DHTML 'transitions' in use:
Quote:


<meta http-equiv="Page-Enter" content="revealTrans(Duration=2.0,Transition=2)">
content="revealTrans(Duration=2.0,Transition=3)">




Javascript is a can of worms, and DHTML and abomination..




Rolf,

What version of FF are you using and with what plugins ?

http://www.shearwater-asc.org.uk/ works fine for me on FF 2.0.0.3.
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