With regards to rigs I can't see myself supporting any option that limits choices and options where these choices are driven by different priorities. We're trying to create a one size fits all rule and I think we should be trying to be inclusive, not looking for things to outlaw or limit. The fact is that pretty much every spar maker has a suitable extrusion for this vessel if stayed (look for a mast tube used on a two person (one on trap) dinghy. My prefered option is currently the MG14 wing mast (approx AUS$400 for the tube. This mast will be less than 6kg fully rigged, a weight that will enable the young sailor to step it themselves. Having said that, I wouldn't conceive of suggesting everyone should use this rig as it is going to be more expensive than round tube.

We need to focus on keeping the rule open and inclusive. We should also look at drawing a line in the sand (ie 30 Nov) as a deadline for concensis so that designs can progress without being held back or becoming redundant.

Folks,
Something to think about with respect to keeping the rules open and inclusive -
We may find there will be practical limitations on craft depending on circumstances given
particular situations and localities. These limitations may range from the normal
prevailing sailing conditions to something as broad as the general affluence of the Area.

In strong wind areas wide beam and small sails could be the go while the reverse could be
desirable in typically light wind areas. Just like in affluent areas a flash production
boat may be better than a home built boat which may thrive in poorer areas.

It may be wise to just set down a hull length limit and leave everything else open or better
still, allow the other parameters to be set locally.
Afterall the right specs are the ones that get the most kids on the water.

I'm not sure if this would be a good approach or not but thought I'd mention it to see what others thought.


Regards,
Phill

Yes!!! absolutely in favor of this and better yet it gets kids thinking about how best they can improve their boat. The downside to this is out of hand development with $ which could hurt things, so we need a simple rule that reins in the $ spent......only problem with that is who is going to do the accounting and what sort of cap do we want thats in keeping with our goals?
Bottom line is I'm all for anything that keeps things as simple as possible.
RG

A reasonable weight is the easiest way to cap the dollars spent and not hinder the capable homebuilders either.
Aerynt

I wonder as whether the opinion to keep things maximally open is more inspired by not wanting to give up ones own "pets" rather then a serious evaluation of effectively launching a F12 class the world over. And yes, I readily admit to having my own pets.

I do however feel that Phill has made a great point about "the right specs being the ones that get the most kids on the water"

Still, I do not see much succesful precendent in allowing wildly different craft from succesfully launching a serious youth program. Afterall, there are 10's of different 14 foot classes and we still don't have a viable catamaran youth program. I think an very convincing argument can be had where large differences between boats of the same hull length is actually a major obstacle to success.

Remember the F12 project was intended to solve that issue as well. I should remind everybody here that the F12 project didn't start when Phill first mentioned his idea for a 12 foot with an unstayed rig some 5 years ago. His program is actually called the Blade 12. I changed the name a long time ago to seperate both programs. The F12 project here on catsailor started last winter, (dec 2006) because of a youth sailing program discussion on the main forum. I also underscore that this F12 project is not entirely the same as my own efforts in this field prior to dec 2006 either (the craft that I really like to own myself).

I fear we must all seriously consider letting go of some of our own pets in order to arrive at a well balanced F12 concept that actually solves the issue of a viable international youth catamaran program c.q. class that gets to the youth sailors early on and feeds them into the larger cat classes.

Allowing wildly open class rules does not have a particulary great potential of succes at that. Especially not in comparison to highly organised and regulated monohull classes in that age group. We'll look like a ragtag band of eternally disagreeing hippies in comparison.

This is not to say that the F12 class may not use surf rigs and other rig or construction alternatives. It just means that the basic class needs to be well balanced and possibly more strict in it international setup then allowing a wide range of different designs. At a local level the regulations can be relaxed if that improves youth participation as long as serious youths gravitate to a single F12 design when they get into more serious (away of their own club) F12 racing.

Wouter

Gato,

Please take a look at this posting :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=124554&Main=124554#Post124554

To understand how easily the named commercially available rig can be copied by a homebuilder.

I trust this takes away your concern.

Wouter

I Agree with Phill, Prevailing sailing conditions and local influences could play a large roll in design acceptance. For instance, here in East Coast Florida USA our summer season has predominantly light winds 6-8 mph. If you set sail sizes based on conditions in some higher wind areas in Europe or Australia the USA boats will end up being a dog. Vice versa, if they were set to the light wind standards of Florida USA the same boat may be vastly overpowered in the higher wind regions of the world. This has been a problem with other catamaran classes has it not? Where there was a European Rig and a Larger Rig for the USA?

Same might be said of hull design to a lesser extent. An area where a surf launch is necessary might need a different hull design (more freeboard/beam clearance) than some that sail on protected waters.

In the USA the trend seems to be more “Turn Key” as opposed to areas in Australia which seem more inclined to home build. The more options available to optimize for the local conditions, the broader the appeal.

Let the designers bring their a-game to the F-12 table. Let them build and test their prototypes against each other; the cream will rise to the top. The consumer will ultimately determine which designs they will choose to support. Problem solved.

Keep in mind that kids are all about “tricking out” what ever they are involved in… be it their clothes, skate boards, bicycles, school note books, and as they get older their cars…A boat that allows them the freedom to customize and individualize will be more attractive than some vanilla flavored ho-hum one size fits all. If this under taking is really about getting kids on catamarans then its main thrust has to be about the excitement. Forget the optimist class mono slugs…there is an opportunity to reinvent entry level sailing for kids, if done properly this could be huge…it is going to be mostly about PR…but the product has to be exciting enough to give the PR element something to work with.

While safety always has to be a major factor with any children’s event, remember kids this age are doing skateboard “kick flips while jumping over 4 or 5 concrete steps. The design must not be neutered by the “Nervous Nellies” to the point where it is so “safe” that it offers the excitement on par with watching the grass grow.

All that needs to be agreed upon is a maximum length.

With the power of the internet, and the generosity of Rick and Mary offering this web site, the possibilities are nearly limitless.

Regards,
Bob

Sorry Wouter, had mist that one...
Otherwise I think the idea good to keep the F12 close to OD.
And an other important aspect is that the boat must be very easy to build, and in the workshop the V shaped hull is very hard to outrun.

Maybe a design contest is the way to progress things ?

Each team makes their own ideal designs together with full overview of weights and costs (both or parts and the whole lot) as well a sort analysis of building requirements (skill, tooling, etc)

We can then compare these designs to one-another and make the best of them the tue F12 ?

Or possible, combine a best idea's of a few designs into a new single F12 ?

Would that be an approach that the designers will be happy with ?

Wouter