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#123351 - 11/12/07 11:23 PM In the spirit of RG setting up web site addresses.
Scarecrow Online   content
old hand

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 898
Loc: Melbourne, Australia.
In order to guarantee that everyone wanting to develop a kids F12 is moving in the same direction, I've put together a prelim set of class rules. This document is intented as a starting point and I would welcome any feedback and be willing to change pretty much everything.

www.ctmd.com.au/F12.pdf
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#123352 - 11/13/07 12:09 AM Re: In the spirit of RG setting up web site addresses. [Re: Scarecrow]
Seeker Offline
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Registered: 04/05/02
Posts: 695
Loc: Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Great start Scarecrow but please re-write Rule 1.3.1.
"Hull panels shall have a weight of not less than 1.2 kg/m2 (equal to 3 mm Gaboon)"

Sounds like something a New York lawyer would dream up....Keep it simple and just state in plain English what the minimum weight is... you can calculate that based upon the general box parameters built out of 3 mm Gaboon ply, just give a minimum finished ready to sail weight and everyone will know where they stand.

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#123353 - 11/13/07 12:44 AM Re: In the spirit of RG setting up web site addresses. [Re: Seeker]
Scarecrow Online   content
old hand

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 898
Loc: Melbourne, Australia.
Thats fine by me..

My original hulls had approx 20kg (10kg each) of ply in them including bulkheads, longitudinals centre case sides etc. The newer design has much less.

Where do people think the minium weight should be set? 45kg? (100lbs)
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#123354 - 11/13/07 01:50 AM Re: In the spirit of RG setting up web site addres [Re: Scarecrow]
RetiredGeek Offline
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Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 255
Loc: NZ
Id rather just see a minimum beach weight as its quite hard to get a panel weight without cutting cores from the boat. I think we need to look at least 55-60 kg to make sure we end up with a durable boat, and to also allow the rotomolded crowd an even shot at producing a competitive boat as well.

Also, the sail area measurement needs to differentiate between conventional rigs and pocket luff rigs, not quite fair to add the mast area to their sail area calc. I'll knock out a sail measurement spreadsheet that will take care of this.

In the interest of getting as much racing as possible for the kids, perhaps we might look at the existing designs out there to make sure the rule is as inclusive as possible of what already exists.

Under daggerboards and rudders, skegs should also be allowed as some existing designs have these.

Other than that....great start
RG

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#123355 - 11/13/07 02:35 AM Re: In the spirit of RG setting up web site addres [Re: RetiredGeek]
Scarecrow Online   content
old hand

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 898
Loc: Melbourne, Australia.
Quote:

Id rather just see a minimum beach weight as its quite hard to get a panel weight without cutting cores from the boat. I think we need to look at least 55-60 kg to make sure we end up with a durable boat, and to also allow the rotomolded crowd an even shot at producing a competitive boat as well.





I agree, however, do we really want to set a minimum weight heigher than the Paper Tiger (50kg)

Also, based upon my perception of sentiment on the forum I've pulled the length back to 12 ft. Are the majority happy with that?
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#123356 - 11/13/07 02:57 AM Re: In the spirit of RG setting up web site addresses. [Re: Scarecrow]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe


Quote:


Where do people think the minium weight should be set? 45kg? (100lbs)






Take a look at the weight analysis I did last earlier this year :

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/F12_weight_and_cost_push_rod_setup.xls

I can't get it down to less then 63 kg ready to sail when using 4 mm ply.

A rotomoulded version will be heavier by at least 15 kg according to my data.

Even when using 3 mm ply (which is rather weak) you can't get it down to 45 kg overall while limiting yourself to only using simple materials and building methods.

Wouter
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Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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#123357 - 11/13/07 04:05 AM Re: In the spirit of RG setting up web site addres [Re: Scarecrow]
RetiredGeek Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 255
Loc: NZ
Quote:

I agree, however, do we really want to set a minimum weight heigher than the Paper Tiger (50kg)

Also, based upon my perception of sentiment on the forum I've pulled the length back to 12 ft. Are the majority happy with that?




The 50kg limit for a Paper Tiger is sans mast, boom mainsheet and sails, so its probably closer to 70-75kg with all the gear on it, so 55-60kg is still pretty agressive for something thats homebuilt or commercially produced. Another thing to think about is that if you set it too low, then a lot of creative people are going to start building carbon hulls which sort of defeats the purpose of trying to make these affordable.

I know that if I got aggressive, I could probably build one under 50kg rigged but it would have no end of expensive stuff on it to get there. These are not A-Class cats, just a better performing Opti that hopefully a bunch of kids will want. Wouters weight estimate is reasonable within the bounds of keeping it reasonably cheap/affordable.

As for the 12 ft, Im happy with that, what about everyone else ?
RG

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#123358 - 11/13/07 04:23 AM Re: In the spirit of RG setting up web site addres [Re: RetiredGeek]
phill Online   content
veteran

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 1247
Loc: Central Coast NSW Australia
My design is done at 12 ft 4.5 inches.
It just happened this length allowed me to do what I wanted.

On the other side of the coin the beam , mast length and sail are a little less.

I will build it as light as I can without the use of materials that will increase the cost and based on my own estimates I hope to come in around 50kg.

The rules document is a good idea to provide some clarity and focus.

Regards,
Phill
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I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.


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#123359 - 11/13/07 04:44 AM Re: In the spirit of RG setting up web site addres [Re: phill]
Scarecrow Online   content
old hand

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 898
Loc: Melbourne, Australia.
RG can you please confirm your hull length to date?
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#123360 - 11/13/07 05:41 AM Re: In the spirit of RG setting up web site addres [Re: Scarecrow]
RetiredGeek Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 255
Loc: NZ
mine were done at 3.75m which is what Wouter had for a length (12'-3.67") I presume Wouter wanted a rounded number in metric ?
Phill, would an inch less make a big difference to you ?
Not overly fussed about length and will go with what the majority want.
RG

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