These people need to be tortured, far more than they have been if the information that is extracted saves lives. Furthermore these people are not American citizens, if they were they should be shot as traitors, and are not protected by either the Constitution or the laws of the United States. Beating, water boarding, stun guns, starvation, noise intrusion, sleep deprivation, up to and including the unsurgical removal of extremities are all perfectly good ways of getting people to talk in my book. If they didn't want to get tortured, they should think twice about F-ing with the United States of America.

What part of goes against our Constitution, our laws, our moral values and what America stands for don't you understand?

The part where it applies to everyone else who isn't a citizen. The part where it applies to those who intend us harm or are allied with those who intend us harm.

I've got a question, if torture isn't a good means to an end what is?

What type of boat was that?

Read these and get back to me.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Break-Terroris...4285&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Essentials-Reid-Te...4285&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Effective-Intervie...4285&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Ragnars-Guide-Inte...4285&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Intervie...4285&sr=1-5

And for some bonus reading...

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Science-Anci...4285&sr=1-7

I can't believe I clicked on this ridiculous thread again.

Answer: Reliable intelligence gathering. Of course, you must stipulate that there will be an administration in place that will 1) believe it and 2) not change it.

Torture does not work if your goal is to produce intelligence - the CIA, FBI, and particularly the Israelis, know this. In addition (as a bonus to the failure), torture creates enemies of such wrath that they will strap a bomb to their children in the hopes of killing even one janitor cleaning an office rented by a military contractor. What would you do? To what lengths would you go to stop or avenge the torture of someone you loved? Even though the movie "Rendition" was over the top in one or two scenes, it did a very good job of showing the difference between legal and moral, and what it looks like when you've gone too far. There is also a good (British?) documentary at the end of the DVD - some pretty dry facts, but shows how the practice of rendition (instituted under President Clinton) changed under President Bush. Looking back, it is easy to see where it went off the rails. At the time, it was much harder to perceive.

Ugh.

AAAAAAaaaaaaAAAAACCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Christ almighty! Are you serious? Try, please just try for 30 seconds, to put the shoe on the other foot. Pretend you weren't born in one of the most powerful nations in the world. Pretend for a moment that you were imprisoned with no rights BY the most powerful nation in the world...and I mean NO rights....no rights to even question WHY you are imprisoned...try...give it 30 seconds and imagine how easy it would be for an innocent person to be trapped in this scenario and how that would so significantly impact your life. Do you think that every single person we picked up, whisked away in chains on a jet, and put in Guantonimo is completely guilty of...welll.....something? Look how many mistakes our current legal system makes even WITH the checks and balances.

Imagine how angry it would make you...imagine how angry it would make your family and your friends. Imagine how deeply rooted that anger would be and how many generations of your family it would take to overcome that anger and hatred. Give it a shot and you might just begin to understand the hatred the extremist Muslim's have, and will continue to have, for the US.

[quote=JakeImagine how angry it would make you...imagine how angry it would make your family and your friends. Imagine how deeply rooted that anger would be and how many generations of your family it would take to overcome that anger and hatred. Give it a shot and you might just begin to understand the hatred the extremist Muslim's have, and will continue to have, for the US. [/quote]

I can totally relate, I feel that way about JET SKIERS.

Karl,

Are you coming to Tradewinds? The cold is getting to you...... Come on down and relax a little.

So that's where the Israelis got it