The fundamental flaw here is that everyone behind this class is doing it from a volunteer basis that means there is 0 marketing budget and that work will always take second place to something that pays better.

Wouter in what year was F16 first formalised and how many boats existed at the end of the first, second, third, fourth etc years.

The problem as Gato points out is a lack of production boats this will eventually be fixed but we need to demonstrate a demand first.

Come on Wouter try only posting when your not pissed.
I have two 11ft Arafura Cadet cats on the water at the moment which qualify as F12's they are a great novice cat that a parent and child can sail together. The F12's I will build will be a better platform for people to learn on or kids to sail. The delay in getting my F12's meant that my kids learnt to happily sail 14ft Arrow cats so they dont see the need to drop down to a 12ft cat. That may change once my first F12's on the water with its high profile rig and only 0.6m2 sail area less than a 14ft Arrow. Look back at the original posts when the whole F12 concept started, it was to introduce inexpensive easy to build, light to handle, easy to rig cats that introduces people to catamaran sailing. This project has accomplished that, any body with an old cat thats hulls are rotten can slide F12 hulls under their hardware and be sailing in a couple of weeks.

I’m really happy that you are going to build the F12 even if you don’t really need it. Still I’m ready to put some money on that it will not bee spending it’s time on the beach once your kids get their hands on it. I think that even you with a lot of different cats will like it and specially it’s over all weight of just 50 kgs.

Just more excusses, mate.

How do you think we started the F16 class ? With a million dollar budget and full-time class officials ?

Yes, I had a full-time job on the side back then as well, as had all others involved in the F16 class.




Actually, the F12 is now in its 4th year from its first appearance public scene (main forum catsailor). The F16 class by that time (it started in may 2001) had long finalized its class rules and had just launched the commercially build Blade F16 by Vectorworks Marine after the Stealth F16 had become the first commercially build boat in the class during 2002 (1 year after the start of the class). Additionally, by that time we had had several inaugural class events in Europe, USA and Australia, where we had 5 or more boats racing eachother. The total number of boats in the world by the end of 4 years was beyond 50 and from that point onwards the class accellerated growth as it had established itself as a viable alternative. 2 years later we had our first Global Challenge, the Alter Cup event (with suppied boats) and a third purpose designed commericial F16 by AHPC.

You guys have 2 more years to beat this fact sheet; if you want to keep comparing these two classes.

I'm sorry to believe that the F12 is nowhere near that point. So lets not compare these two classes with eachother. It serves no purpose.


I still believe the F12 concept is a very good one and one that will sell well when its parameters are well balanced. I just don't see the "Oceania approach" as very well thought out. I think Jeff's comment is illustrative of that. The F12's may be the best designed 12 footers on the planet, but that is only half of the situation. The design must be just right for the potential customer base and the time frame of its launch. I see the F12 failing convincingly on the "other half".


I do check on the F12 and think "Told you so" when I see all this happen. Afterall, I took alot of flak and indeed promises of great succes if only we were to follow the "Oceania approach". Excusse me for finally wanting to see these great promises by well experience designers who were so much unlike nasty old Wouter being furfilled.

I'm still waiting !

Wouter

I still say that the path to a succesful F12 design and class lays along :

-1- Simplified aluminium rig using prismatic standard alu tubes that slide into one another. Preferably unstayed and with a pocket luff.

-2- Standard size straight alu beams

-3- Enough volume in the hulls to carry a full sized adult or two kids.

-4- Optimized for peak performance with 12-16 years olds and women of all ages. Recreationally fun for larger adult males.

-5- Remove everything that is not strickly necessary. This means diamond wires etc.

-6- Accept a little higher minimum weight to allow for very cheap series production by relatively unskilled workers (hence the mast design under point 1)

-7- Design the craft in such a way that they can be completed by any amateur, possibly after purchasing the hulls commercially. Home building wing shape carbons masts is NOT an option.

-8- Force all designs to a very recognizable single appearence c.q. performance.

-9- WORK, WORK, WORK on getting yourself (the class) a network of volunteers and commercial builders. Present them with a well thought out single plan and drive. Wide open class rules scare the builders away, because they don't know what to expect. This leads to a delicate balancing act with regard to the class rules and lots of campaigning/promoting.


I think we all remember my ideal setup.

Wouter

Wouter,

I have no interest in getting in a fight with you. I became involved in F12 because I want to kids sailing, not to see my name in lights. Please keep this sort of discussion for elsewhere as it doesn't do any class F16 or F12 any benefit to have arguments in their forums when these represent the class's primary public face.

There is nothing in the rules that stops your ideal boat being built. Get it on the water and show us how wrong we were.

I agree with Scarecrow, and I would have built your design (and can still consider it)if you would have supplied me with a set of drawings to build it from, it's very hard to build something that is sailing just from words...

I know my younger daughter will sail the F12 the only question is the bouyancy for a crew because we have a very social junior sailing here now and its not uncommon for 2 boats to stay on the beach and have 4 or 5 in a boat all laughing and carrying on. My 8yo lad will sail the F12 when he's big enough but at the moment he's about right on the Arafura in light wind and we've just had a 12yo join the club who will be sailing my other Arafura. I have a policy at the club of rigging all cats then let the kids sail what they want, they actively change crews and once the F12 is on the beach I don't think it will stay dry.
The early F16 was based on the established 4.9 Taipan's and similar which I believe are superb boats, my approach to the F12 is not commercial its just kids on cats which will be slow but sure.
Wouter at my club the F12 project is already a great success, when it started I had two 420's for kids and that was our total junior sailing now I have had 20 different kids sail our 5 cats this summer without a sexy F12 sitting on the beach so just sip on your beer and think positive thoughts.
regards

I am just completing my rotational moulded F12, I'm sorry I can't post pictures just yet as there are some features that are covered by a confidentiality agreement at the moment. The first hulls were completed just before xmas, and I have been setting up the rest of the boat over the last few weeks.

I will be trying out a number of different mast configurations both stayed and unstayed over the next few months, with a view to having a boat ready for our cadet section to test at the beginning of the 2009 season.

Gareth

This is great news. Try to make it as simple and inexpensive as possible.

About the discussion going on, fast or slow, the F12 is starting. The first designs are relatively sophisticated and growth is not expected to be fast at this point.

Personally, I support the class and the group 100%, but still have secret hopes to see it become a strict one design. Maybe not exactly Wouter's design, but something like RGs first drawings (tripod suported self standing mast) with the latest hulls, possibly rotomolded.

Whatever becomes the winning boat, concept or set of rules, we must be all committed to support it, for the ultimate goal is to attack with this boat/concept/set of rules the market niche that nowadays is monopolized by the Optimist and Laser with the ultimate purpose to keep adult multihull fleets growing.

Please try to focus on this and other common interests instead of wasting your valuable time fighting.

All the best,
Luiz