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#212773 - 06/06/10 12:53 PM Re: What are the F16 Classes WEAKNESSES [Re: macca]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe
Quote:

So, if you are saying that there isn't much difference in the fitout etc then why is an A cat so much more expensive than an F16?



Because our formula rule do a much better job of keeping cost under control.

The A-cat rule set is alot more open then ours and the rules that they do have are alot more challenging to meet. A spinnaker package and a few extra blocks don't weight 30 kg for example. There is a major difference between a 75 kg A-cat and a 100 kg F16 (without the spi package). Although not so much in performance apparently. Come to think of it the Viper had a right killing in that All-carbon SMOD F20 class lately. Seems we were right all along. Using carbon fibre and other hot stuff isn't really all that it is hyped up to be.

Plain and simple.


Edited by Wouter (06/06/10 12:56 PM)
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Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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#212774 - 06/06/10 12:54 PM Re: What are the F16 Classes WEAKNESSES [Re: ACE11]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe


Quote:

It doesn't seem to be an impediment though - numbers are booming worldwide and the quota of 100 at this month's Worlds in Italy has been heavily over-subscribed - go figure in a GFC


Good point Ace !

Wouter
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Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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#212777 - 06/06/10 01:53 PM Re: What are the F16 Classes WEAKNESSES [Re: Wouter]
macca Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1014
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Wouter
Quote:

So, if you are saying that there isn't much difference in the fitout etc then why is an A cat so much more expensive than an F16?




Because our formula rule do a much better job of keeping cost under control.

The A-cat rule set is alot more open then ours and the rules that they do have are alot more challenging to meet. A spinnaker package and a few extra blocks don't weight 30 kg for example. There is a major difference between a 75 kg A-cat and a 100 kg F16 (without the spi package). Although not so much in performance apparently. Come to think of it the Viper had a right killing in that All-carbon SMOD F20 class lately. Seems we were right all along. Using carbon fibre and other hot stuff isn't really all that it is hyped up to be.

Plain and simple.



A Class and F16 have essentially the same rule set:-

unlimited use of carbon
no restriction on core
carbon masts
carbon beams
carbon foils and rudder boxes

these are the main drivers of cost

The F16 requires extra strength in the platform compared to the A class due to the loads of a jib and spi, plus the F16 is required to carry 2 crew and added to the extra volume required to carry the additional sails the hulls are much larger as well as the beams, this accounts for a large part of the weight difference.

add in the self tacker, carbon spi pole, chute and hardware for jib and spi (don't forget the sails) The weight difference isn't so great by now...


plain and simple enough?
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#212781 - 06/06/10 02:25 PM Re: What are the F16 Classes WEAKNESSES [Re: macca]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe

Quote:

A Class and F16 have essentially the same rule set:-

unlimited use of carbon
no restriction on core
carbon masts
carbon beams
carbon foils and rudder boxes

these are the main drivers of cost




Huh funny, last time I checked a F16 with carbon foils (standard on all F16's), carbon boxes (standard on 50% of F16's), carbon reinforcements in the hull and even a carbon mast was still below 20K and stiffer then the F18's (even when corrected for weight differences between both classes).

So, I guess the other class rules (that the A-class does not share with us) are doing a fine job of controlling the costs.

Wouter
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Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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#212783 - 06/06/10 02:41 PM Re: What are the F16 Classes WEAKNESSES [Re: Wouter]
macca Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1014
Loc: Australia
So, again I ask: why is an A cat more expensive than a F16?
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#212789 - 06/06/10 04:02 PM Re: What are the F16 Classes WEAKNESSES [Re: macca]
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 5274
Loc: Sebring, Florida.
Why don't you ask the A cat Builders?

There are at least two of them that frequent this board.

I don't know, I've never built a cat, but my first guess would be, they build fewer of them, by hand, slowly, because it takes more time and effort to get it lighter and keep the strength?
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#212791 - 06/06/10 04:22 PM Re: What are the F16 Classes WEAKNESSES [Re: Timbo]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe

Quote:

Why don't you ask the A cat Builders?



Indeed !

Wouter
_________________________
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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#212809 - 06/06/10 06:47 PM Re: What are the F16 Classes WEAKNESSES [Re: macca]
scooby_simon Offline

Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 3526
Loc: Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Originally Posted By: macca
Originally Posted By: Wouter
Quote:

So, if you are saying that there isn't much difference in the fitout etc then why is an A cat so much more expensive than an F16?




Because our formula rule do a much better job of keeping cost under control.

The A-cat rule set is alot more open then ours and the rules that they do have are alot more challenging to meet. A spinnaker package and a few extra blocks don't weight 30 kg for example. There is a major difference between a 75 kg A-cat and a 100 kg F16 (without the spi package). Although not so much in performance apparently. Come to think of it the Viper had a right killing in that All-carbon SMOD F20 class lately. Seems we were right all along. Using carbon fibre and other hot stuff isn't really all that it is hyped up to be.

Plain and simple.



A Class and F16 have essentially the same rule set:-

unlimited use of carbon
no restriction on core
carbon masts
carbon beams
carbon foils and rudder boxes

these are the main drivers of cost

The F16 requires extra strength in the platform compared to the A class due to the loads of a jib and spi, plus the F16 is required to carry 2 crew and added to the extra volume required to carry the additional sails the hulls are much larger as well as the beams, this accounts for a large part of the weight difference.

add in the self tacker, carbon spi pole, chute and hardware for jib and spi (don't forget the sails) The weight difference isn't so great by now...


plain and simple enough?


Macca Are you saying you want to compare a single handed A class with a 2 up F16? is that sensible?
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#212812 - 06/06/10 06:54 PM Re: What are the F16 Classes WEAKNESSES [Re: scooby_simon]
macca Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 1014
Loc: Australia
nope, but unless you are going to start building F16's that are not capable of carrying 2 persons and a jib, you will need to still build the boat to handle such loads.. and hence the weight and costs


Edited by macca (06/06/10 06:54 PM)
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#212813 - 06/06/10 06:57 PM Re: What are the F16 Classes WEAKNESSES [Re: macca]
scooby_simon Offline

Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 3526
Loc: Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Originally Posted By: macca
nope, but unless you are going to start building F16's that are not capable of carrying 2 persons and a jib, you will need to still build the boat to handle such loads.. and hence the weight and costs


OK. What is the price of a C2 at the moment?
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