I'm looking for a boat design/plans, a homebuilt 14-16' cat that I can highly modify.

I plan to enter the 1200 mile Ultimate Florida Challenge in March 2012
http://www.watertribe.com/

Below is my first model/mockup of my design, a freestanding biplane rigged folding catamaran. In the first pic you'll see my oars but I'd like to set up a peddle prop drive.
In the second pic the boat is setup for the 40 mile portage.
Remember, these pics are only a model to help convey my idea, much is still needed and things will change, get modified, over and over ......

Some competitors walk this route and push/pull their portage carts while others use a bicycle to tow it. I want to tow it, if i can.

Or, I'd like to use the same parts for both the prop drive and for the bike, or turn the boat into a bike, or some combo of this nature.

If I left the bike whole, and the bike was always ready to go, when I re-provision for water/supplies then I'd have an instant and quick ride. Towing is easy this way? and maybe set it up like some of the water bikes for while on the boat?

Anyway, I got a few different ideas rolling around but my plan A is to use oars and the bike to tow. A prop drive would require a bunch of designing, testing and cost ....




I am also looking for a boat design .......

My design considerations for the boat are:
1) unstayed masts , quickly removable
2) biplane rig
3) reef ready , roller furling?
4) hulls - flat bottom (shallow draft), pull onto beach
5) hulls - hatches for storage
6) hulls - floatation, unsinkable
7) hulls - dismantled/folded for 40 mile portage
8) hulls - lee board/center board, must kick up
9) hulls - rudders, must kick up
10) hulls - front net/tramp
11) boat must be portaged 40 miles!
12) live aboard for 15/30 days, eat/sleep
13) aux manual propulsion, oars / peddle drive prop
14) aux sail plan : kiteboarder kite
15) carry all gear and supplies for 15/30 days
16) easy to build
17) wheels for portage?

Links so far:

watertribe:
http://www.watertribe.com/

texas200:
http://www.texas200.com/

Duo 425:
http://www.ikarus342000.com/DUO425page.htm

Duo 480:
http://www.ikarus342000.com/DUO480page.htm

KD800:
http://www.ikarus342000.com/KD800page.htm

here is a link to another thread I got going about this:
boatdesign.net


In looking around for different designs I came across the K-designs , they had designs for a 14' and 16' biplane rigged cat, along with a folding cat, exactly what I've already spec-ed in and made a model of, perfect, I got a place to start from. It's all too similar, scary actually! But I'm still looking around for other available designs so I can make an educated decision.

the 425 uses windsurfing gear, can't use that in the race. It has to be able to reef, and roller furling would be nice, so I'm also looking for a rig that's oh about 9 square meters-ish

Now I know that in races, everyone wants to keep their design a secret so they can have an edge against their competitors but the watertribe race is different and I just look at it as one big ol' and long messabout with friends. Developing, building, testing this boat will take much more time than actually racing it and it'll be a fun thing to share. Too many times I see something and it's like a big black secret, you want to know more about something but it's just not to be shared. Not in this case!

I welcome any and all comments, ideas and suggestions! Even a competitor with the same idea.

Presently I have "Sew Sew" to worry about if he can keep from crashing and breaking his gear. He's for all out speed and quickness. And he has a very light boat. He'll be the one to catch in 2012, maybe that will be me?

Anyway, we all have spot trackers, so when it's time to follow the race it'll be a lot of fun for everyone. Kinda like following the Dakar Rally with the time span of about 2 weeks. Wacky machines, crazy competitors, an impossible course and wild weather, all should make for another great adventure!

After looking around (a lot) I find this F16 class, and the Razor Blade. Is this a homebuilt ply/epoxy boat? Remember, I got to portage this boat 40 miles, so lighter the better. I'd go to 14' if I though I it could carry the extra gear (about the weight of another sailor) but there's not that many 14' designs out there, but there are 16' designs to choose from.

Help me find a set of hull designs that will be my platform for a winning design!

Aquatically yours,
Dennis Barrett
South Padre Island, Texas

Hey Dennis,
I have considered doing the race only haven't figured out the part of taking off 30 days off work. The only person to complete the race on a cat is crazy russian.
To his credit he completed in a very respectable time using an inflatable cat with a full size collapsible mountain bike and trailer.
Having completed the NCC Challenge twice and what I learned last Sept I will be happy to relate to you.
DO THE MATH!!! An inflatable boat or an A-cat can weight in under 450 pounds. An Isotope with two people and gear can hit the scales at 800pounds.
Think about it rowing against the flow of the river 100 miles.
The folding catamaran is ingenius but either needs a longer waterline or super bouyant hulls.
My best idea is an A-cat with a 3/4 high mast, bmx bike, and a frame to turn the hulls into a trailer. This sound like a fragile way to go but it keeps the weight off.
The inflatable catamaran is still a very good candidate. The things I would do different that Crazy Russian would be longer oars and maybe a double centerboard setup but these items take weight.

Good Luck,
J.P.Ayers
Isotope 186
Holdyourcourse

Actually I got to put the numbers into real life and try it all out. I got a 16' prindle that I'm gonna weigh, put wheels under and try to tow with a bike. Then I'll add all the weight that I think I'll carry, and tweak the wheels and portage setup until it works (or fails ending this whole idea).

If this all works out, then it's on to the rowing aspect and put this idea into the water and "see if it floats". I got great testing grounds, similar to florida so this is great.

Then comes the sailing tests using windsurfing gear ....... again, my 2 sets of prindle 16 hulls will be my test platform.

Initially I'll build up the folding system with what ever "stuff" I got laying around to make a full scale mockup with the prindle16 hulls.

My tests will help me further the design and show me what new design aspects I hadn't yet thought of awaits me.

Take a look at the mast on the Hobie s+ark (google for "hobie stark" for pics), I thought this was a really good idea for a folding mast and side wheels.

very creative and interesting project!

I think this is the brochure for it. Interesting designs

http://www.hobie-cat.net/img/news/dp_hbystarck_gb.pdf

Be sure to scroll down for the illustrations.

What kind of terrain are you going to have a traverse during the 40 mile portage?

The Razor is designed by the same guy who designed the Blade. Both designs are suitable for epoxy/ply but Phill's rationale behind the Razor was that it should be simpler to build this way than the Blade.

Phill Brander can be PM'd via this forum (username: phill)

Try this one:
http://triaksports.com/

Saw them at the Ft. Lauderdale boat show when I went with TMS. Hulls designed by M & M. Lightweight, furling jib, spinnaker, nonstayed mast and light.

I like the basic idea, especially the little spin. But I'm just not buying the center seating thing.

I watch Triak development for 15(?) years, probably more. It had foiled floats originally. I see design flaw there - it is rear position of floats. Basically, in any serious seas it should behave very much like a tricycle, always ready to flip over or put the driver all the way underwater. I think it can be very uncomfortable boat to float 1200 miles nonstop. It would be nice if somebody prove me wrong. Watertribe events have always been test for serious expedition crafts. We didn't see Triyak there yet. I wonder why.

Talking about catamaran for the challenge.

I wouldn't worry about portage (40 miles flat hardtop) as much as about last 30 miles of upper St.Marys river.
I skipped this section of the river by doing longer portage in 2010. However this rule's loophole is closed. Upper 30 miles of St.Mary will be back breaker - constant current, in some stretches it is over 2 knots, and deadwood lying across the river. I have no strategy for the river myself yet. Catamaran will be too wide. Either someone need to collapse it into narrower platform and figure out reliable propulsion system for both narrow and wide boat. Or take the wide boat and be ready to cut(sew) the way through. I think I'll go with the second option.

I did curry a bike this year. However, I don't think I'll take it for the next challenge. Walking the boat proved to be easy, albeit slow. An extra 20 lbs of bike and trailer can be deal breaker in upper St.Marys. I don't know yet, some testing needed.
Anything over 300 lbs total weight is too much for one person, in my opinion. I'd aim at 200 lbs for the boat max.

If I've had unlimited resources, I'd go for hard shell boat, not inflatable

I'm heavy guy so A-cat is out of question for me.

F-16 looks like a good pretender. I'd make it a bit narrower, 7 ft max, and put some wings on it.

Or I'd take Hobie Wave and build light weight 15 ft long hulls for it and Hooter and be happy.:)

But I'm poor and broke, so I'll use inflatable cat again
Probably, I'll get better faster new boat from Russia, or been as lazy as I am just take my old boat around Florida again.

It seems like we will have some very strong competition in 2012. There are some very strong paddlers going to sign up and I foresee that best paddling time will move to 16-17 days (It is 19 days now)
Will Randy Smyth be faster? I'm pretty sure he will, however I don't expect anyone finishing in less than 15 days so it will be very close race.
And, beside Randy we may have strong sailors there too, I hope

CrazyRussian out

It is mostley flat county roads in South Georgia between the headwaters of the St. Marys and Suwanee Rivers.

Good luck to all of you. This sounds too much like work for me.

I dont see how Randy will do 15 plus days on sew sew.

Did anyone other than the Russian do this on a cat in past years?

I like the idea of this adventure race, but I'm not sure a traditional cat would work. Assuming, you can get around the 40 mile portage, and the 100 mile upstream issue, how do you manage the river rapids? And what about restocking? Or do you pack for 20 days? How about sleeping/camping for 20 days, do you just come ashore and camp? Sleep on the boat? What have the past racers done?

Thats quite a list, and it doesnt exist,you've got way too many constraints to make anything that is fast. If you do you'll end up with a really slow, heavy boat and you've only got 5 months to build it, so, I think you'll need to start with an existing platform. If you want to beat Randy and the Russian, you have to start with the premise that your sailboat needs to be fast, faster than an inflatable and more proven than Randy's folding trimaran.

I would start with an Acat, and modify it and beef it up. Go find a used, older Acat. Its light and fast enough to beat the Russian and as fast as Randy's tri, and if you are not looking for the latest/greatest design, you will find a bargain. I would chop down the mast or consider a two part mast, (find a broken one and fix it, make a 2 part mast.)and a reefing sail (take a used Acat and modify, plenty around) If you really wanted speed, add a spin, (do a search for Acat with spin, there is a Dutch sailor that has video posted and its impressive) A spin plus an Acat is the fastest all around cat design I've seen. Go find a used F16 spin, or a used F18, HT, or something similiar. You will stomp on the Russian and leave yourself lots of room for the portage and the upriver parts.

Portage
Flip the acat upsidedown, attach 2 wheels so the boat is balanced, and pull with soft harness a bike or walk/jog. Is a skateboard for rollng down hill worthwhile? and jog/walk the rest? A bike seems too heavy, I would go for lightness and speed to win. If you keep the boat assembled, you could pack all your stuff on the tramp when its upside down.

100 Mile upriver
Can you row this? Can you sail upriver? Can you add a kite - like a kite surfer - kite. Light and fast. This part has me stumped.

Good luck.

Bill

Without a Paddle: Racing Twelve Hundred Miles Around Florida by Sea Kayak [Hardcover]
Warren Richey

Get this book and read it (Amazon) ...it is a great story and you will see that it will be very difficult for a small cat to navigate the St.Marys and Suwanee rivers. Both have low bridges and shallow water, bounded by overhanging trees and headlands. I think there is probably a 200 mile stretch where you could not sail at all. The upper Suwanee has several class 3 rapids...A-Cat? I think not!

When I talked to the Triak people at the boat show, they said someone recently purchased one to do one of the Watertribe events. It looks like it paddles very well and you can easily remove the mast. I would build an overhead bracket to store the mast when not in use.

It is about 100 lbs all up. and has tracks for it for easy toting:
http://triaksports.com/transport/

I have an online promo code for the boat show price at $4,500, no sales tax, free delivery.

Wow, this is a cool little boat/kayak. the spin snuffer is really cool.

Yeah that is cool, but I wouldnt want to spend 20 days on it.

You can be resupplied at official checkpoints, using outside support. Mostly you just stop and camp whever you think you can avoid being harassed. You actually can stop and eat in a restaurant or stay in a motel, but that slows you down.

Ultimate Florida was ran twice, in 2006 and in 2010. Next one is planed for 2012, it will be bi-annual event, seems like Watertribe reached flash point for enough crazy people to sustain the race.
There are 11 people finished the race so far, two of them did it twice.
All but two finishers did it in canoe/kayak of one type or another.
Matt the Wizard did it in capsular self righting unsinkable monohulls "Enigma" (12 ft long, 180 lbs, 4 ft wide) in 2006, and her smaller sister Elusion ( 9 ft long) in 2010

I did it on inflatable catamaran of Russian origin. 15 ft long, 6.5 ft wide, about 100 sq ft upwind sail area, 170 downwind. weighted at check-in last time I flied with the boat at 180 lbs fully packed in three bags. The boat was lighter for this challenge, I guess somewhere around 170 lbs.

Pelican took Hobie Adventure Island tandem trimaran all way to portage this year, He dropped out there (He finished 2006 challenge with canoe). He dropped out because he was running out of time, he didn't have full month available and he had number of misfortunes on the trip. Boat was heavy too, however he was sure he could bring it all way around if he had enough time.

I and Pelican by-passed upper 30 miles of St. Marys river on land, opting out for a longer portage. This option is no longer available.

St. Marys river is navigatable on sailboat for about 60 miles. It is tidal river, current reverses or stops twice a day for about 70 miles. There is one low bridge, but other than that it can be paddled, rowed or sailed relatively easy. On my second day on the river I ran into stiff headwinds, so I was tacking every 30 seconds all day long

Upper 30 miles of the river is a nightmare even for kayakers.
Stiff current, low branches, shoals,strainers, deadwoods.

Portage is about 40 miles long, flat with very low divider half the way it is slight uphill, half way - downhill.
It is active two line road, with soft shoulder, Traffic is not heavy but cars and tracks are there.

Then you have about 220 miles of Suwannee river, first 80 miles are not sailable.
Full course overview is here
http://watertribe.com/Events/UltimateFloridaChallenge/Default.aspx

Overall, Cross Florida Stage from Fort Clinch on east coast to Cedar key on west coast is about 390 miles. Best paddling time for this stage is 6 days. My time was 10 days.

After all this torturous info, I still believe that taking light catamaran is a way to go

Actually rivers part wasn't all that bad. I was moving, I slept full nights (I couldn't do much at night with inflatable hulls around snags) and I was worm and dry finally and I had plenty of fresh water
Sailing Atlantic side was much more exhausting in the weather we had.

Spindennis.
I think you are on a right track. Don't expect to be fast. But we have had many instances when slow but steady won.

I personally don't see any advantages in bi-sail rig and I see quite a few disadvantages - it seems like windward sail always will be in a way of a person on a board, and leeward sail is hard to control. But idea is around for so long so it may have some merits.

I saw on another forum that you are getting your towing set-up right. Just think light. Try to make your boat as light as possible.

Good luck
Vlad

vlad,
I sense you have a good feeling of what I'm going thru, you as a proven competitor had already gone this path, and still doing it. I was especially tuned in to your race, being on a cat, I feel we are part of a pride of big cats!

I've got a few more youtube videos now going: 4 total so far
youtube ufc build videos
subscribe to my channel to stay updated .....

I'm gonna go back and see all the other posts again,
and see why I'm not getting email notifications .....

the starck design is kinda weird .....
and these pics over simplify things .....
I see some problems with the wheel setup but,
i have thought about a similar idea,
but it would have to tie in both wheels together .....
still interesting though.
my simple dolly worked pretty nicely , see the video
so now I have a baseline to work from.
it will be hard to beat though .....

the triack is also interesting,
but like others have said ....
being in there for 3 weeks could be rough.
I prefer to stretch out some ....
I learned this the hard way
when I paddle the coast of texas back in may.

Vlad,
I also believe this, and once I got this fine tuned, this folding catamaran system will become the standard ufc boat.

And this will be a fast boat, someday. maybe not in the river sections but in open waters.

It still has years of development to go though, but the first version will/could be ready soon. But like you, I'm on a budget so I can't just jump into what I think the best design is gonna be.

Like another poster said, look around for an older A-class boat and modify that, though this kind of shopping around will take time and I'm not exactly in the middle of the fleet if you know what I mean. south padre is a great place, but it's far removed from much!

Does anyone want 2 wooden A-cat hulls? Very nice but Unfinished project. Weight about 60 pounds each, epoxy marine 3 mm plywood. Location GAinesville.

BTW- does everybody know how low the Suwannee River is? It is at its Historic low- canoers cannot get down upper part. Trips cancelled. No rain this fall. I believe with a dry winter it will have very little water in March.

I also have an actual Prindle 15 for sale cheap. Better than a P16 for this.

Dacarls, how is volume of those wooden hulls? I'm too heavy for A-cat, unfortunately. It is 220 lbs body and another 50-60 lbs of gear and water.

I did 2003 Everglades Challenge on wooden A-cat. Didn't show any spectacular time. I had all sorts of fun, broke dolphin striker while launching the boat, run into low bridge and wedged the boat between pilings. Crashed one GPS between my knee and crossbar while navigating Coxambas pass. Another GPS was completely dead from water penetration already. It was fun sailing in 10000 island area in complete dark without GPS, not really knowing where I was. With wind from rear quarters I tried to go slowly for a change. I actually stopped at some campsites and asked for direction. Smashed both boards. Get bombarded by school of mullet, with fishes hitting me into face and jumping on a trampoline. I slept on trampoline with the boat on water two nights, just had no place to pull the boat on a shore. Waves were washing over me – boat was so low in water. Run over a manatee, now it was scary. Got hypothermic around Cape Sable, in very worm weather - I didn’t want to change into drysuit with sun going down and I was trying to catch as much light as I could. As a result I lost almost a day – getting on a beach, building a fire and then not having any will power to continue into night.

Overall, it was remarkable trip
Anyway, got any pics of hulls?
How heavy this Prindle 15 thing?

Vlad,

If Hobie 14 is about 220 pounds, Hobie 16 360lbs, Prindle 15 right in between at 300 pounds is my guess. More flotation than H14 or a skinny A-cat. These are fatter A-cat hulls= ok.
UNderstand 220 lbs plus gear is a load on a small performance cat.

dacaris,
No problem, those hulls are perfect for me! I'm 165lbs ,,,,,
and it's just what my ufc boat calls for!
dennis
south padre island, texas

+1 the Prindle 15 was 265 pounds (when new)