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Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: brucat] #241498
12/16/11 02:11 PM
12/16/11 02:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by brucat

The MHC is actively working on safety recommendations. It seems to me that these same discussions pop up on the board, year after year. I think it would be great to have some of you form a think tank and come up with a best practices guide to help people in the future.

Simple things like, a VHF or cell phone is useless if it's in a hull or tramp bag (as opposed to on your person) should not have to be learned the hard way by people, over and over.

Could be one more benefit of US Sailing.

Mike


You don't have to look that far to find some very tried and true open water long distance beachcat safety equipement requirements. Simply take a look the GT300 and Tybee 500 for safety equipment requirements.

Mike why don't you guys just take those and have US Sailing put their seal of approval on them? Also who in US Sailing has the open water, long distance, beachcat sailing experience that could review and add value to what has already been established by the beachcat community?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: PeteCullum] #241500
12/16/11 02:20 PM
12/16/11 02:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
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B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
US Sailing is us, not them. You get what you put into it.

What I'm suggesting isn't simply an equipment list, but a guide as to what the best practices are, and why. While buoy racing is a different discipline, lessons from the distance racers would still be valid.

I never said to have anyone at US Sailing write or approve this. The best people to write this are the various beachcat distance race sailors. The MHC, which is part of US Sailing, could arguably be the best place to tie this together across events and classes.

Or, we can sit around, make jokes, and complain that no one at US Sailing listens to us, gives us anything, or takes us seriously.

Your choice.

Mike

Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: PeteCullum] #241501
12/16/11 02:34 PM
12/16/11 02:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
The only time I hear from USS is when they want money. I give the money because USS does a very good job training race officials. Beyond that, I'd just as soon be left alone.

Let the guys doing distance stuff put their safety requirements in the SIs.

Last edited by pgp; 12/16/11 02:34 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: PeteCullum] #241502
12/16/11 02:40 PM
12/16/11 02:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Okay I'll see you on the other side Mike I hope you enjoy the ride.

In the meantime I'm going to go with what has worked for the GT and Tybee sailors.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: pgp] #241503
12/16/11 02:42 PM
12/16/11 02:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Originally Posted by pgp
The only time I hear from USS is when they want money.

I'm trying to fix that. Besides, you don't get the email updates?


Originally Posted by pgp
I give the money because USS does a very good job training race officials. Beyond that, I'd just as soon be left alone.

My response wasn't directed at you personally. There is no shortage of people here asking what US Sailing does for its members.


Originally Posted by pgp
Let the guys doing distance stuff put their safety requirements in the SIs.

Good point. The only time a sailor would need to know any of this stuff is if they're in the middle of a distance race.


Mike

Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: PeteCullum] #241504
12/16/11 02:55 PM
12/16/11 02:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
No, I don't get email updates.

I do enjoy the rules discussions and explanations from the judges and wish there were more of them. I also understand the judges are volunteers.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: cyberspeed] #241505
12/16/11 03:05 PM
12/16/11 03:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
Yeah. Don't worry about the helmsman - save the bloody mast!


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: PeteCullum] #241507
12/16/11 03:11 PM
12/16/11 03:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
laugh Anyone know what the depth was?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: pgp] #241508
12/16/11 03:16 PM
12/16/11 03:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
old hand
ksurfer2  Offline
old hand
K

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
The depth on the ocean side varies greatly along key largo. While it may have been deep enough to turtle the boat, that may not have been possible. There is a boat from this race a couple years ago where a crew member was seperated. A veteran distance racer was left aboard his N20 (same boat as this incident). He tried, unsuccessfully, to turtle the boat. The buoyance in the mast was too great to get the boat to go turtle.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: PeteCullum] #241509
12/16/11 03:29 PM
12/16/11 03:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Funny how that works. There have been times I've tried to turtle a boat, and I just would not go. I've also turtled a boat and it had been so windy and rough that it wouldn't stay.


I'm boatless.
Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: ksurfer2] #241510
12/16/11 03:31 PM
12/16/11 03:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I concur. East of Hawk's Channel could be deep enough, but a lot of times you're hugging the shoreline in 15-20 feet of water, so a 32' mast probably won't turtle very well.


Jay

Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: PeteCullum] #241512
12/16/11 03:39 PM
12/16/11 03:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
I wish I were a cartoonist! I have a vision of two guys in waist deep water balancing an N20 on it's mast tip... It might be funnier in 15'!

Last edited by pgp; 12/16/11 03:40 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: ksurfer2] #241514
12/16/11 04:37 PM
12/16/11 04:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
25 feet is the max inside the reef. A broken stick is what you'll get if you try to turtle your boat.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: pgp] #241516
12/16/11 05:10 PM
12/16/11 05:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by pgp
I wish I were a cartoonist! I have a vision of two guys in waist deep water balancing an N20 on it's mast tip... It might be funnier in 15'!


We basically did that in the 2010 Tybee. Harness strap gave out which through a series of circus acts caused us to gybe, flip and immediately go turtle. We were on the upturned tramp and when the mast went straight down, we were also on top of a wave . When the wave passed we were sitting on a platform 3' above the water. We quickly got it beyond 90, then slowly righted it.Shattered the halyard crane.
One lesson to be learned here is don't hangon to the boom or stand on the mast after the boat has flipped unless you want to turtle it. We were having a really good run when this happened with one boat (Mischa) in front of us, so basically the whole fleet went by us and no one saw us. A couple of teams said we just vanished. So if you choose to turtle your boat, it's not a guarantee you'll get it unturtled (we barely did) and you WILL be very hard to spot.
Another time in the Hogs Breath ,crew fell off boat flipped and I managed to right it alone( It's gotta be breezy) and get back to my crew before a good samaritan made chum out of him with his boat prop.
There's alot more stories but the bottom line is you have to do whatever you can with what you've got.
I'd be interested in someone testing this drogue theory to see if it slows the boat ENOUGH for a heavily laden swimmer to catch it.I have my doubts.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: PeteCullum] #241518
12/16/11 05:28 PM
12/16/11 05:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
"we were sitting on a platform 3' above the water"

That's worthy of a T-shirt.

"There's alot more stories.." They're worthy of their own thread and maybe a book.

Last edited by pgp; 12/16/11 05:30 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: pgp] #241520
12/16/11 05:31 PM
12/16/11 05:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
old hand
cyberspeed  Offline
old hand

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Posted a video interview on www.SailSeries.com


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: waterbug_wpb] #241521
12/16/11 06:07 PM
12/16/11 06:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline
addict
catandahalf  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
What about the day when Doug Foote, Dirk Lundquist, and others would race 18m2s from Gulfport Yacht Club, MS to Pensacola Beach - that's 120 nm, singlehanded, in the GoM, prior to our fancy cybernetic toys we have today?

Maybe seamanship plays a role, and if not, I am sure the court will sort out the horror.


Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: TEAMVMG] #241526
12/16/11 09:48 PM
12/16/11 09:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
The best drogue is a catamaran mast and sails - THE CREW COULD HAVE INVERTED THE BOAT


I think it would be better if one person could right the boat. A simple righting bag, The crew rescues the boat then goes for MOB. The inflatable sausage is a great idea.

I sail with a 7lb fortress (light) and a large righting bag. Upon capsizing I throw the anchor and rig the bag. Even if the anchor doesn't bite it seems to add enough drag to help the bows point into the wind.


Have Fun
Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: catman] #241528
12/16/11 09:59 PM
12/16/11 09:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
old hand
cyberspeed  Offline
old hand

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
The drogue also helps the boat point into the wind unless the current is VERY bad.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: Seperation Irritation at Steeplechase [Re: catman] #241532
12/16/11 11:15 PM
12/16/11 11:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
old hand
davefarmer  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
Where are inflatable sausages available?

Dave

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