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#248091 - 05/10/12 05:14 PM Re: Congratulations to Dave & Dave [Re: daniel_t]
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 3213
Loc: Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted By: daniel_t
I have heard complaints about portsmouth and frankenboats in the local clubs in my area as well. I've been tossing an idea around in my head but I have never mentioned it before now...

What if the skipper was rated instead of the boat? It would be a portsmouth style system where a skipper's (rather than the boat's) rating would adjust after every regatta. With such a system, you would win races more based on how much you (or your boat) has improved.

In the particular case being discussed here, the skipper's (Dave's?) rating would progressively decrease every time he won the regatta. In order to keep winning, he would need to either improve his boat each year, or become a better sailor.

Gaming such a system would require the skipper to intentionally loose regattas to keep his rating high. Somehow I don't think that would be much of a problem!


Have you ever played in a after work golf league that uses this system? Yeah... people will sandbag.

This system might be fun for a local club event but having grown up sailing PHRF which essentially rates the skipper/team it starts to suck out load real quick. PHRF is the devil!
_________________________
David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.USF18.com

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"F!@k'em if they can't take a joke" - My Dad

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#248092 - 05/10/12 05:27 PM Re: Congratulations to Dave & Dave [Re: Mark Schneider]
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 3213
Loc: Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Schneider
Quote:
You also said the "serious" frankenboat sailor would make sure their cert was up to date and accurate, which doesn't really apply here either. The teams in question in this thread are being accused of cheating (not claiming the mods that apply to their rig) and a measurement system aint going to fix that.


Quote:
Carlson ran a Catnip rating with carbon rudders, daggers, A-cat carbon mast and spin, only taking a hit for the spin. That's not very sportsman I think. That is a call-out to the polka-dot.


Translation.... Catnip.... Old heavy A class that Dave has modified... LEGAL
Carbon Rudders... LEGAL (not regulated in Portsmouth)
A-cat carbon mast.... A catnip is an A Cat.... Length and type of mast... not an issue for A cats... LEGAL

spin, only taking a hit for the spin LEGAL

All of that is LEGAL

Now... the problem is that the last time a catnip raced in a legit portsmouth race may be 15 years ago. Do you think the A cat rating from 15 years ago was... is "accurate".... The Portsmouth system has FAILED.

Calling Dave Carlson Unsportsmanlike or "cheating".... Ignorant at best!

Quote:
By definition (in my opinion) handicap racing regardless of the system used is flawed and unfair in one way or another to someone and there is simply no way around this very glaring truth. Didn't Carnac use a measurement based system?


Flawed and unfair....

Flawed.... what do you mean?
The rating table is not accurate? the rating table is not precise enough? the rating table was generated using bogus data? the rating formula uses the wrong constants?

Unfair.... again... what do you mean?

Look.... if two IDENTICAL ONE DESIGN BOATS finish a race overlapped... guess what... the most perfect and the fairest handicap system in the world would still score the two boats as TIED.

If what you want to say is that handicap racing is not as precise as the One design racing.... TRUE.... and .... so what?


The question is does this apply to the Catnip and RC-30?

Any other deviations from standard class configurations, including the addition of wings, can be assessed a penalty of at least 0.995. Multiple deviations may incur multiple penalties. Penalties may be greater than 0.995. Please identify any such modifications and penalties assigned and include with results reported to the handicap committee and Portsmouth Numbers Committee.

You say no but others say yes which is the basis of the thread and potential protest.

Let me also state if I haven't made it clear before... I don't give two sh!ts about the catnip, RC30 or any other rig in a handicap race because for me it aint real racing and that's how I deal with the handicap racing bullsh!t.

If you think a measurement system will magically make all this insanity go away your are delusional Mark. It's like saying one religion is the real true religion and all others are bogus. You're a believer and good for you, I'm simply not.
_________________________
David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.USF18.com

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"F!@k'em if they can't take a joke" - My Dad

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#248093 - 05/10/12 05:41 PM Re: Congratulations to Dave & Dave [Re: jkkartz1]
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/29/09
Posts: 5047
laugh
_________________________
Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.


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#248094 - 05/10/12 05:42 PM Re: Congratulations to Dave & Dave [Re: Mugrace72]
Timbo Online content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 5274
Loc: Sebring, Florida.
Originally Posted By: Mugrace72
Originally Posted By: Timbo
since next year is the 60th...well...maybe.

Depends on the weather forcast.


We are due for a windy year Tim. We missed by two days this year...it blew nicely all day Thursday.


Yeah...I've been sucked in by that "...we are overdue..." before too!

But I might come just to drink beer with you at the finish line Jack.

I might not bring my boat though.

The many hours spent rigging it, unrigging it, all that back and forth driving up to the club and then back to Polatka sure cut into my party time! If I could just find someone to haul my beach wheels up to the Rudder club...
_________________________
Blade F16
#777

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#248095 - 05/10/12 05:53 PM Re: Congratulations to Dave & Dave [Re: David Ingram]
Mark Schneider Online content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/17/01
Posts: 2683
Loc: Annapolis, MD
I know you are not making any charge that either boat is cheating.

Your broad brush stroke that this is just like religion and you are not a believer is fine... BUT the race actually IS scored on handicap and they give out trophies and others care.
So... the OA should lead and choose the most workable handicap system.

Portsmouth has now become a system where you are screwed at almost all turns. "Maybe he is... maybe he is not CHEATING" is a tragic conversation.
Portsmouth's time in the sun is over. The rudder club should lead...
_________________________
crac.sailregattas.com

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#248096 - 05/10/12 05:58 PM Re: Congratulations to Dave & Dave [Re: Timbo]
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 10365
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: Timbo
"Don't hate the Playa, hate the game!"

Portsmouth sucks...but if you want to play, well, you know the rules are weak when it comes to 'modified sail plans'. How would you like to be one of those poor monohulls who have to start at 7am, with zero wind, and then try to finish, as all the late starting cats go blowing by you when the breeze finally shows?

Go for the Party, but they should just hand the RC 30 the trophy on Friday night.

Personally, I HATE light air sailing. I only got into cats to GO FAST(er) than monohulls! Having done this light air drifter 3 times, I swore I'd never go back, the logistics are a PITA, as is the long drive home with a hangover, but since next year is the 60th...well...maybe.

Depends on the weather forcast.


It's a really fun race regardless of weather. It is one of my favorite sailing memories when David Mosely and I used it to shake out the I20 before our first Tybee....we actually had a little breeze that year before storms sucked it away (before bringing it back with veracity). The hull flying spin run through the monohull fleet was awesome...making fun of Mosely for wrapping himself in the spinnaker when it started to rain...when we were soaking wet anyway (trampoline launched kite), the storms bringing the wind back and making it to the club in time to have the beer tent whisked away over our heads into the clubs antennae (storm wind), and my favorite quote of all time when an older dude who was competing in a sailing canoe was boat assisted to the club. He was sitting on a short retaining wall shivering and someone asked him if they should call EMS. His response? "I'm 80 years old, I'm supposed to shake...just show me to the beer tent". Hell yeah.
_________________________
Jake Kohl
A-cat F-18
Team Seacats

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#248097 - 05/10/12 06:15 PM Re: Congratulations to Dave & Dave [Re: David Ingram]
Timbo Online content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 5274
Loc: Sebring, Florida.
Originally Posted By: David Ingram
Originally Posted By: Mark Schneider
Quote:
You also said the "serious" frankenboat sailor would make sure their cert was up to date and accurate, which doesn't really apply here either. The teams in question in this thread are being accused of cheating (not claiming the mods that apply to their rig) and a measurement system aint going to fix that.


Quote:
Carlson ran a Catnip rating with carbon rudders, daggers, A-cat carbon mast and spin, only taking a hit for the spin. That's not very sportsman I think. That is a call-out to the polka-dot.


Translation.... Catnip.... Old heavy A class that Dave has modified... LEGAL
Carbon Rudders... LEGAL (not regulated in Portsmouth)
A-cat carbon mast.... A catnip is an A Cat.... Length and type of mast... not an issue for A cats... LEGAL

spin, only taking a hit for the spin LEGAL

All of that is LEGAL

Now... the problem is that the last time a catnip raced in a legit portsmouth race may be 15 years ago. Do you think the A cat rating from 15 years ago was... is "accurate".... The Portsmouth system has FAILED.

Calling Dave Carlson Unsportsmanlike or "cheating".... Ignorant at best!

Quote:
By definition (in my opinion) handicap racing regardless of the system used is flawed and unfair in one way or another to someone and there is simply no way around this very glaring truth. Didn't Carnac use a measurement based system?


Flawed and unfair....

Flawed.... what do you mean?
The rating table is not accurate? the rating table is not precise enough? the rating table was generated using bogus data? the rating formula uses the wrong constants?

Unfair.... again... what do you mean?

Look.... if two IDENTICAL ONE DESIGN BOATS finish a race overlapped... guess what... the most perfect and the fairest handicap system in the world would still score the two boats as TIED.

If what you want to say is that handicap racing is not as precise as the One design racing.... TRUE.... and .... so what?


The question is does this apply to the Catnip and RC-30?

Any other deviations from standard class configurations, including the addition of wings, can be assessed a penalty of at least 0.995. Multiple deviations may incur multiple penalties. Penalties may be greater than 0.995. Please identify any such modifications and penalties assigned and include with results reported to the handicap committee and Portsmouth Numbers Committee.

You say no but others say yes which is the basis of the thread and potential protest.

Let me also state if I haven't made it clear before... I don't give two sh!ts about the catnip, RC30 or any other rig in a handicap race because for me it aint real racing and that's how I deal with the handicap racing bullsh!t.

If you think a measurement system will magically make all this insanity go away your are delusional Mark. It's like saying one religion is the real true religion and all others are bogus. You're a believer and good for you, I'm simply not.



WHAT??? You mean there's NOT one TRUE RELIGION???

HERESEY!

He's a WITCH, BURN HIM! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
_________________________
Blade F16
#777

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#248098 - 05/10/12 06:24 PM Re: Congratulations to Dave & Dave [Re: Timbo]
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/27/08
Posts: 878
Loc: Alachua, FL
Originally Posted By: Timbo

But I might come just to drink beer with you at the finish line Jack.

If I could just find someone to haul my beach wheels up to the Rudder club...


You got it Pal! Done deal. cool
_________________________
Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL

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#248099 - 05/10/12 06:39 PM Re: Congratulations to Dave & Dave [Re: Mark Schneider]
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/27/08
Posts: 878
Loc: Alachua, FL
Originally Posted By: Mark Schneider

So... the OA should lead and choose the most workable handicap system.

The rudder club should lead...


That ain't gonna happen Mark. We (cat sailors) are the outliers. Their handicap guy is overloaded as it is with trying to merge PHRF, Portsmouth, etc. into some sort of believable spreadsheet. It is called RCHS (Rudder Club Handicap System) and no one but he knows (or should know) how it works. That way it is hard to protest anyway.

Our Portsmouth numbers are only the base number and he has the ability to make WAG adjustments as he sees fit.

Having said that, word is that he is willing to make bigger adjustments for next year. That was the talk after the race anyway. The new lady Commodore wants this to happen.

It might be a good time for some well written letters to find there way to the Rudder Club.



Address:
Rudder Club of Jacksonville
8533 Malaga Avenue
Jacksonville, FL 32244
Telephone/fax:
904 264-4094
office@rudderclub.com

_________________________
Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL

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#248100 - 05/10/12 07:00 PM Re: Congratulations to Dave & Dave [Re: Mugrace72]
Mark Schneider Online content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/17/01
Posts: 2683
Loc: Annapolis, MD
Holy crap.... I thought we were talking Portsmouth and "cheaters" ...

now that we are talking about the Rudder club handicap system... which contains a WAG factor.

Give me a break.... anybody claiming XX is cheating best apologize.
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crac.sailregattas.com

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