Jake
So... Midwinters in January were held in the Keys (Ilesmorada) including Miami OCRs and youth qualifiers . for all classes...


The March/April period saw three events each trying to draw from the national pool of racers. The results are mixed..
Spring Fever all classes (cratered)
Hobie Midwinters Hobie 16, 17, 18 an No F18s)
Davis Island, A class.
Charlston for F18s never flew
Outer Banks for A class never flew.

So, this is tough on Regatta organizers.. This time period is the beginning of your sailing season in Fla, the South and the Gulf coast... What are your thoughts about what needs to happen looking forward to next year?

Each event on your list probably has a unique reason why it fell short - but I think you hit on it earlier at some point in that long thread. I've thought a good bit about this and I think it boils down to two related words: Outreach and Conversation. If you look back 10 years at the events that are struggling now, key people were very engaged in the national conversation around sailing and they don't seem to be as involved as they used to be on that level. I'm not placing ANY fault here...life, time, money, (thanks Jay) all get in the way. I also think that some of it is cyclical as the organizational energy transfers from old to new and I see some new that is ready to pick up and run.

I see the future unfolding two ways. The first one is a controlled method, the second is letting human nature take it (but with some risk).

1) For the big events to pick back up, they need to have conversations with the classes and other organizations about what they can do to be more accommodating and/or attractive to the classes/organizations. Through that, we will likely reforge some relationships and realize a slight reduction in the overall number of events. More partnership and a little rejuvenated energy will result and we'll get things back on track.

2) The other way this goes, is that we keep plodding along until enough events die that some of the new blood gets bored with having nothing to do and injects some excitement with something new once enough event death has occurred. There's risk in this option, however, because the newer folks might not be excited enough (or have enough free time) to pick up that big torch.

when you do sail around them and blow their doors off it is quite rewarding, especially if they are trying to stall you or box you out.

My 5-6 regattas at Charleston have all lead to bleeding on one part of my body or another, that harbor can get rough real quick, not sure if it is the container ships, current, wind, or all of the above but I have had only a few pleasereable sails there on a cat. I did have the Laser out there and the Whaler and had a blast, I think the harbor knows when you show up on a cat and says this world belongs to the E-Scows, go away!

Actually, it's the E-scows that say that. ;-) The harbor is challenging to sail. The current can induce a big chop and it can get sporty.

The F18 class did not attempt to attend Charleston, so I wouldn't say that was a failure.

Earlier you asked about the benefits of attending big multi-class events, and the stability of those events is a huge draw. With an event like the Newport or Hyannis regatta, there is a very very small chance of cancellation. Large events tend to have an organized web presence, timely pre-registration, and consistent logistics. It is very easy to plan in advance for these events because they happen the same weekend every year. If I had booked travel for an event like Spring fever only to have it cancelled I would be very unhappy.

Jeff and all - Do not forget about CORK. There will likely be a N 17 circle because that is Canada's "Olympic Classes Regatta" for the year. They spread their events out in contrast to the Miami gig. I am sure Pat L would be glad to have members of the F 18 Class with him on the water. We tried this last year, if I recall. If you would care for a hook - up, let me know.

FWIW, it's noted on the USF18 website event list that the F18 Canadian Nationals will be at Kingston ON Aug 16-19.

BTW - for you guys north of the border, nearly every single one of your catamaran related websites are outdated and have inaccurate info. The only place I could find information on Can Nats was on the US F18 site. Time to step it up

Please Explain how it could be bad for him if he had rights and wasn't doing anything wrong, unless you mean getting hit by a scow on an A. That would probably suck.
If you're on the same course and paid the same entry fee, giving everyone a pass because you are on a cat will do nothing to open their eyes and make them pay attention.

I was pretty ticked off at the time - but we laugh about it now. You just really have to watch your overlaps at the zone in that kind of mixed fleet and making some vocalizations doesn't hurt either. Running down a gaggle of J24s at C-mark while they're dorking around with a gybe drop of that ancient symmetrical spinnaker is P.A.I.N.F.U.L! ;-) Talk about a pinwheel!

Hey... the bowman union is going to take you out... try that maneuver in 15 knots... it is exciting. What is there to do for the bowman on a boat with an Asym?

Now... mixing it up on buoy course with Lightnings or bigger requires a LOT of trust... ie... the cat sailors knows the rules...and / or the mononohull sailor knows the rules and figures out time and distance quickly....

Racing C 24s against J 80s at the leeward mark during a St Pete NOOD was a bit confusion filled; the 24s were coming in on water-fire, and the J 80s were all lined up drifting down almost by the lee in 15 knts of breeze. We were recovering a lost halyard on the screacher when we gybed, so we came into the circle on the outside, just behind Raul on I Fly, coming into the J 80 parade on port. Since he and his daughter were clicking off about fifteen knots, and rounding upwind, the J 80s made sure they took no wide turns:-) I Fly flew out ahead of the gaggle of J 80s, and Twain came in mid - fleet. Had to keep driving off right to run around the end of J 80s. Raul was gone again.

If you read this far ...try http://www.cork.org/

Damage always, most definitely, sucks. It also opens the door for a RRS 14 protest (yes, the rule where a ROW boat CAN be penalized for collision with damage). We all know that anything can (and does) happen in the room, even when the judges aren’t biased and think they have a slam dunk solution.



It’s not about giving anyone else a pass. I’ve witnessed (and actually prevented) an attempt to take action against an entire fleet of cats due to the perceived actions of three boats (the threatened action was to uninvited the fleet ever again). I lost a ton of respect for several officials that day (also renewed my faith in a couple).

I’m not saying it’s right, or OK, but especially when we’re guests at someone else’s party, we have to be careful, or risk not being asked to come back. I know that’s probably too much for some folks here to wrap their heads around, and I’ve said too much about this already, so I’ll leave it there.



Rick White wrote about it many moons ago… SLOW DOWN TO WIN!!!

Mike

no damage, btw. It was a love tap.

I got in some hot water one time at the Reggae regatta one time at the A mark. Managed to sneak in a short tack right at the layline about 3 feet in front of a J24 just outside the at the time 2-BL circle. He was inches off my rear beam and yelling at me the whole time even though I was in the clear. No contact was ever made and after we turned the mark we sped away quite easily.

The guy came up to me later and apologized and said that I was in my rights to do that but he was in the lead of his fleet for the first time of the day and his temper was hot.

That same regatta we were on the same course as the Opti fleet and dear god you've never known terror like seeing dozens of Optis lined up like ducks during their start across the line you're coming downwind in 15 knots to finish at. I thought for sure a kid was going to die that day.

Sticking to the multi-class events that we don't run:

Wickford Regatta: We will likely be on a course with 505s and A-cats. We will sail WL courses, and will likely have a longer weather mark than the 505s. We sail with the 505s a lot, and it works fine. One thing to remember with the 505s is they have very different downwind modes and angles depending on the breeze and whether they are sit-running or wiring

Newport Regatta: We typically are on a course with 49ers, FX, VXone, A cats. I believe we have all sailed the same course in the past, and usually F18s start first. The VXone are a fair bit slower, but it is a small fleet and they haven't been a problem. They sail similar angles downwind which is nice. The 49ers also sail very similar angles which makes things easy. They also talk a lot of smack, but can't back it up with speed!

Hyannis: We share a course with J22s. They use a shorter weather mark and we start first. The angle and speed are very different, so there shouldn't be much interaction (although there has been a collision in the past).

HPDO: In the past we have shared with Viper 640s and K6s. Interacting with the Vipers can be tough because it is a very large fleet and they are just fast enough to be annoying. WIth a J22 you just cruise past, no worries. Vipers sail high enough angles and are almost fast enough to get in the way. We've had some crazy finishes at HPDO.

Overall, I think it is easy to share courses with boats that are either very similar speed and sailing style (49er) or very different (J22). In either case, the interaction is fairly predictable. It's when you have something like a Viper that is in between is when things are slightly more difficult. That said, the Viper guys are a lot of fun and I don't mind sharing with them. I would personally rather share a course with a 49er than a Hobie 16 because the speeds and angles are much closer.

I will say, the rules knowledge in parts of our fleet is the lowest of any I have raced in, which can be detrimental when racing in bigger events.

If there is a possibility that injury or damage will result in a claim (insurance, legal, personal, or otherwise), then it is absolutely vital to have a protest hearing. Although the protest committee (in the USA) does not adjudicate any claim for damages (see USS prescription 67(b)), responsibility for damages is based on fault as determined by the rules (see USS prescription 67(c)). Without a finding of facts from a protest hearing, insurance companies (and the courts) are unable to determine fault. Even with the facts, they are notoriously bad at applying the rules, so PC has to do that too.

If you think Protest Committee made a mistake in conducting the hearing or in applying the rules, then file an appeal. If you think the Appeals Committee got it wrong (and yes, I've seen it happen), appeal to a higher authority.


There are times when, for the sake of getting along, it's best to just let things slide. On the other hand, one sometimes needs to protest, even if it's unpopular. Remember the Basic Principle of Sportsmanship and the Rules, which states "competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce".

I once protested a boat racing one-design in a different fleet. The other skipper was very upset and couldn't understand why I protested, as I had nothing to gain by it. He yelled and complained (as did some of his other fleet members) until I finally asked him "do you really think it's ok to break the rules, just because the other boat is in a different fleet?".


If an event organizer threatened to exclude my fleet because we enforced the rules, then I suspect that's an event we would not attend again anyway.

Regards,
Eric

dear lord, I 'pologize...for starting this....pigmies in new guinny'.

Eric,

What do you do when time to file a protest has long since expired (still same day) and there was damage on the race course? Out of country btw, so international jury that has other things on their mind.

I agree with everything that Jeff has said. We regularly share courses with A-Cat's and other spinnaker beach cats, no issues. 505's are generally fine, but haven't had any encounters where we are both wired up downwind. It's the boats that are in-between a J/24, 22 etc. and us in speed that are an issue (larger trimarans and J/70's fall into this category). All manageable with some planning and rules knowledge. The lack of basic rules knowledge, even at the pointy end of the F18 fleet is appalling, and we really need to correct this as a fleet going forward.

As to Annapolis to Oxford, it's an event I do because of the format and no other reason. We had a sizable fleet of beach cats turn out last year, and you know some of the issues that prevailed. If it were up to me, NASS wouldn't take entries for boats without a spinnaker (i.e old Prindles and Hobies that show up for one event a year), for liability issues, but I am also torn because the more boats the better. I think getting some of these teams onto a more modern platform as crew would be beneficial to all. As to plucking monohull sailors into our fleet, I think we've managed to pick up one or 2 in the past 3 years of A to O's. Most of the monohulls don't respect our rights as racing vessels on the course, and few come up and talk after the race. There are some really cool guys on the faster boats, and I would like to make our boat available for rides after the race ends.

Any other thoughts on how to get more people in the fleet? What events are popular and why?

ummm.. because only good sailors sail boats with spinakers????

If the Div 11 Hobie 16 fleet showed up for the race... you would be hard pressed to save your time.

FYI... the Maryland Gov Cup (75 mile point to point) was the largest race on the bay when the guys who race once a year showed up... 1/2 of the event were recreational sailors.
Just because these new entries ...are not racers... does not mean that they are not good sailors...

Liability Issues... What are you talking about? Your liability... their liability or the OA and RC liability...

All skippers are responsible for their boats and crews on the water. Period... racing, cruising or anchoring.

The OA is not going to discriminate against one class of boats with special rules.. either beachcats race... or they don't race.

We have some common sense and informal guidelines in place that are applied at the fleet level for the new racers... We are not in the business of denying anyone entry. (hell our worst upsets involved experienced racers suffering serious injury)

Damage alone does not relieve a boat from her responsibilities to inform the protestee or to file, but there are some mitigating factors.

If the damage or injury is obvious to both boats involved, the protestor does not have to hail "protest" nor fly a flag, but she must still attempt to inform the other boat within the protest time limit. See RRS 61.1(a)(4).

The protestor still needs to file within the time limit, but if there is a good reason to extend the time, the protest committee must do so. See RRS 61.3.

Even if a boat's protest is invalid, the protest committee itself may file a protest if it learns of an incident that may have resulted in injury or serious damage. See RRS 60.3(a)(1).

So, if you were involved in an incident that resulted in injury (even minor injury), or serious damage (serious enough to require repair), but file after the time limit expires, you still have a couple of options. The first one is to request that the protest time limit be extended. If you made a good faith effort to deliver your protest within the time limit, but were prevented by circumstances beyond your control, then Protest Committee must extend the limit. Good reasons include taking injured crew to receive medical attention, or keeping a damaged boat from foundering. It does not include taking time to pack up and cover your boat, nor for stopping to take a shower and change clothes.

If you didn't properly inform the other boat, or can't get the time limit extended (or if your protest is invalid for some other reason), you can still request the Protest Committee to protest under rule 60.3(a)(1). If the damage is severe, or there is evidence of injury, a good PC will file its own protest and have the hearing.

I hope that helps,
Eric