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Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271696
04/22/14 09:43 PM
04/22/14 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by brucat
OK, so you protest them for talking to their road crew under outside assistance or Rule 2 if that's warranted. In that scenario, the issue isn't the tracking, it's talking to the support team, period.

Mike

Read the SIs. That's legal.


I've met your road crews. Nice folks for certain! But you can talk to them all day long and it wouldn't bother me. Same goes for ours...hell...I once hired a forecaster who was more consistently wrong than if I wet my finger and stuck it in the air. I get the perception - but reality is that talking to people while you are sailing up the coast really doesn't offer much more than a distraction from sailing fast.


So making excuses ,valid or not, makes breaking the rules OK?
I'm done. You guys know way too much about distance races and rules for me.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

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Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271698
04/22/14 11:14 PM
04/22/14 11:14 PM
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FL
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signal mirror, if batteries get low on GPS or VHF, good for line of site from chase boat if dismasted, or separated from boat. Helps confirm GPS coordinates. Can be seen for miles.

Last edited by sail7seas; 04/22/14 11:29 PM.
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #271702
04/23/14 07:08 AM
04/23/14 07:08 AM
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South Carolina
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by brucat
OK, so you protest them for talking to their road crew under outside assistance or Rule 2 if that's warranted. In that scenario, the issue isn't the tracking, it's talking to the support team, period.

Mike

Read the SIs. That's legal.


I've met your road crews. Nice folks for certain! But you can talk to them all day long and it wouldn't bother me. Same goes for ours...hell...I once hired a forecaster who was more consistently wrong than if I wet my finger and stuck it in the air. I get the perception - but reality is that talking to people while you are sailing up the coast really doesn't offer much more than a distraction from sailing fast.


So making excuses ,valid or not, makes breaking the rules OK?
I'm done. You guys know way too much about distance races and rules for me.


Just having fun with you but I didn't think we were talking about breaking rules. I thought you said that it was legal in the SI's to talk to your ground crew during the race.

You want to get me fired up, lets talk about really light air sailing at 1am and your competition (with whom you were sailing side by side with before they turned) has their ground crew meet them in the surf 1/4 mile short of the finish line and then run their boat to the finish line beating you by 5 or 10 minutes. The SI's said that your ground crew could meet you in the surf so I was pretty stuck without much to lodge a protest against - in the case there might have actually been a protest committee. I complained to the race committee that it wasn't very sporting and you can just imagine the response I got back. I then presented taking the case to the extreme of a really light air start and suppose a ground crew walked/ran the boat up the coast a couple of miles in the surf. Not much of a conversation piece that was either.


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271703
04/23/14 07:37 AM
04/23/14 07:37 AM
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y'all might want to note the Florida 300 SI's are still a little grey on where ground crew can assist a boat on the course side while finishing. The start wording boxes them into a course perpendicular to the surf but the finish does not.

I don't want to turn this into a punching bag session but why do the SI's state that there is no protest committee? It's this kind of stuff that makes us look like amateurs to the sport of sailing. It's not like I'm some protest happy monster (I've filed one in my entire life)...but, still.


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271704
04/23/14 07:37 AM
04/23/14 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
You want to get me fired up, ...

Jake,

Just to get you fired up, in such a circumstance, consider protesting under Rule 2. I think you could make a very good argument that such tactics are contrary to the principle of fair sailing. If I were on a jury in such a circumstance, I'd be very sympathetic to a claim under rule 2 or rule 41.

Alternatively, if you don't want to play the sportsmanship card, you could protest under rule 42 "Propulsion". Pulling a boat along the shoreline through the surf is not "using only the wind and water". Sailing instructions may, in stated circumstances, permit other methods of propulsion (such as assistance from shore crew for beaching), provided the boat does not gain a significant advantage in the race. See RRS 42.3(i).

Regards,
Eric

Last edited by Isotope42; 04/23/14 09:11 AM.
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271707
04/23/14 08:03 AM
04/23/14 08:03 AM
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Todd, if it's legal, what is your problem???

Eric, while I agree with you for 99.999% of our regattas, if all the teams are allowed to talk to their road crew, who all have access to the data, there is nothing unfair about it.

Besides, it would be close to impossible to prove without witnesses, and there is no PC for this event.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 04/23/14 08:14 AM.
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: brucat] #271709
04/23/14 09:03 AM
04/23/14 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
...if all the teams are allowed to talk to their road crew, who all have access to the data, there is nothing unfair about it.

Sailing Instructions may change RRS 41 "Outside Help" to permit boats to receive information from shore crew. Exactly what is permissible depends on the wording of the SIs.

Quote
Besides, it would be close to impossible to prove without witnesses, and there is no PC for this event.

Most of the regattas I attend have no standing protest committee. If a protest is filed, Race Committee forms a Protest Committee ad. hoc.

The hardest job Protest Committee has, is figuring out what happened (a.k.a. "finding facts"). Because sailboat racing is not typically umpired, impartial observers are rare. All PC can do is take the available testimony and reconstruct the incident as best it can. That then becomes the "facts found". Applying the rules is the easy part.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271710
04/23/14 09:06 AM
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After reading the SIs (again), the OA may want to consider clarifying their intent in this regard.

SI 8.3 allows communication with ground crew, but does not modify RRS 41.

SI 11.9 modifies RRS 41, but only for emergencies.

So, what is the intent? Be careful, because this is a genie/bottle thing. It's extremely difficult to enforce a half-rule (i.e. you can talk to someone, but only about certain things), you're better off just taking away any restrictions.

Edit: Eric, they stated that there will be no PC in the SIs. That's quite different than pulling one together as needed. Again, I'm not completely clear on the intent, because they stop short of stating that protests are not allowed...

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 04/23/14 09:11 AM.
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271711
04/23/14 09:15 AM
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One other (should have been obvious) thing: unless the cell phones are restricted to dumb phones, sailors won't need to talk to anyone ashore to see the tracking data, they can just use the phone to access the website.

Everyone's got a phone, everyone can get to the data, where's the crime?

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 04/23/14 09:17 AM.
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: brucat] #271713
04/23/14 09:42 AM
04/23/14 09:42 AM
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South Carolina
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Originally Posted by brucat
One other (should have been obvious) thing: unless the cell phones are restricted to dumb phones, sailors won't need to talk to anyone ashore to see the tracking data, they can just use the phone to access the website.

Everyone's got a phone, everyone can get to the data, where's the crime?

Mike


Assuming you can get a signal.

We actually toyed with this idea during the Everglades challenge and had the gear to view the tracking map. However, it was pretty useless when the event tracking map crashed. But, then again, knowing where our competition was really wouldn't have changed anything - we're all going in the same direction to the same points and it would have mostly just been trivia. Its not like we would have changed course based on any of the information we could learn. With the length of the Everglades challenge, it could possibly affect when and how long we shut down for rest and knowing the weather forecast after two days is a benefit to your course selection. However, that's not a factor in a race like the Florida 300 where you get to reboot every evening. I still think having access to any of that information in a race like this is more of a distraction and offers no real benefit. What are you going to do? Go faster?


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: brucat] #271714
04/23/14 09:57 AM
04/23/14 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
SI 8.3 allows communication with ground crew, but does not modify RRS 41.

A Sailing Instruction that changes (i.e. conflicts with) a racing rule without conforming to RRS 86.1(b) is not valid. To change RRS 41, the SI must "refer specifically to it and state the change".

Quote
So, what is the intent? Be careful, because this is a genie/bottle thing. It's extremely difficult to enforce a half-rule (i.e. you can talk to someone, but only about certain things), you're better off just taking away any restrictions.

The genie is already out of the bottle. It's perfectly acceptable to call your spouse while racing and make dinner plans. Rule 41, however, prohibits calling someone stationed up the course and discussing the wind conditions.

Quote
...they stated that there will be no PC in the SIs. That's quite different than pulling one together as needed. Again, I'm not completely clear on the intent, because they stop short of stating that protests are not allowed...

RRS 85 states "The organizing authority, race committee, and protest committee shall be governed by the rules in the conduct and judging of races". RRS 63.1 states "the protest committee shall hear all protests...". If an organizing authority refuses to form a protest committee, or if a protest committee refuses to hear a protest, then they are in breach of RRS 85, and are subject to appeal.

In theory, SI's could change rules 60-68 to remove a boat's right to protest and eliminate hearings, but that would be sowing disaster. The OA might as well not follow the Racing Rules of Sailing at all.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271716
04/23/14 10:04 AM
04/23/14 10:04 AM
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I once hired a forecaster who was more consistently wrong than if I wet my finger and stuck it in the air.


He didn't work for SA did he? The last year we did it, one of our ground crew kept telling us each day what to expect and was not even close! I asked her where she was getting her info and all I can say was his initials were MM. I politely said we didn't need any info from that source.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: brucat] #271717
04/23/14 10:10 AM
04/23/14 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
... sailors won't need to talk to anyone ashore to see the tracking data, they can just use the phone to access the website.

Using a smart phone to browse a public website is permitted under RRS 41(c), "information freely available to all boats". See ISAF Case 120.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271724
04/23/14 12:13 PM
04/23/14 12:13 PM
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
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Originally Posted by Jake
why do the SI's state that there is no protest committee? It's this kind of stuff that makes us look like amateurs to the sport of sailing.

14.2 An arbitration committee shall be called to seek resolution of redress requests described in submitted protest forms. The PRO and the Beach Master will be members of but shall not chair of this committee.

The only reason we do not have a protest committee is that we would need to get a live certified Judge to preside, we would need to pay his expenses.

Last edited by cyberspeed; 04/23/14 12:17 PM. Reason: wordy

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Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271725
04/23/14 12:17 PM
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Eric, at this point, you're making my case in all aspects...

I fully agree with Jake, utility will be minimal in all likelihood. Even if you sailed into a hole, and some other boats appeared to be in better breeze based on the tracking, you'd still need to get over to them...

Mike

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271726
04/23/14 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Originally Posted by Jake
why do the SI's state that there is no protest committee? It's this kind of stuff that makes us look like amateurs to the sport of sailing.

14.2 An arbitration committee shall be called to seek resolution of redress requests described in submitted protest forms. The PRO and the Beach Master will be members of but shall not chair of this committee.

The only reason we do not have a protest committee is that we would need to get a live certified Judge to preside, we would need to pay his expenses.


Not true. There is no requirement to pay or reimburse any official. You could have different (local) judges at each stop as well.

And, you don't have to use a certified judge (although that is best practice).

What is the plan if someone wants to file a protest (not a request for redress)?

Mike

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271727
04/23/14 12:53 PM
04/23/14 12:53 PM
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What about Skype or Vsee for a protest? I know there has been some discussion of utilizing these for hearings, and a multi-stop distance race would be a great example of where it could be beneficial. Admittedly there are issues with the idea, but it would be great to be able to have judges familiar with performance cats, no matter where the event.


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Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271742
04/23/14 04:46 PM
04/23/14 04:46 PM
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If SPOT trackers are mandatory, as currently stated in the SI's, they either need to be provided by RC and sponsorship dollars used to cover their cost OR the fee included with the entry fee like other races that use tracking.

The inability to lodge a protest is asking for trouble. What is the RC's proposed solution when there is a collision at a start, finish or at any other time during racing and the results of a formal protest hearing need to be submitted for an insurance claim?


Scorpion F18
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271744
04/23/14 06:11 PM
04/23/14 06:11 PM
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Northfield Mn
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By that thinking they should supply all equipment. Hell, a boat too while they're at it. Don't like the rules, don't play the game, pretty simple.


I'm boatless.
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271745
04/23/14 06:20 PM
04/23/14 06:20 PM
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Not allowing protests is insane.. reminds me of a certain steeplechase start a couple years ago.

Sam your logic on providing trackers makes no sense. There is no reason why they can't require it and require competitors to pay for it too. I've been to races where it was required to pay for tracking. It's not always realistic for the RC to have expenses like that.

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