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Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #275094
08/30/14 07:20 PM
08/30/14 07:20 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
Could imagine me on the umps boat. Black on starboard luffs up because yellow is near on port (black wouldn't have luffed if yellow was ducking), yellow luffs up fraction of a second later, both apparently have no rights while luffed, black first out of luff still on starboard, yellow comes out of luff fraction of a second later still on port instead of completing tack which would have avoided collision, still on port collides with black, black penalised. I assess the Corinthian part of the sport I am watching and swim to the beach


Jeff Southall
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Re: Impact! [Re: JeffS] #275095
08/30/14 08:40 PM
08/30/14 08:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
old hand
Isotope235  Offline
old hand
I

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by JeffS
I assess the Corinthian part of the sport I am watching and swim to the beach

Just realize that to a cruising sailor who has only a passing familiarity with the IRPCAS, fleet racing in catamarans is equally incomprehensible.

Match racing, team racing, and fleet racing are separate disciplines within the sport of sailing. The tactics of each game are different, but one is not less sportsmanlike than another.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Impact! [Re: JeffS] #275096
08/30/14 09:24 PM
08/30/14 09:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by JeffS
Black on starboard luffs up because yellow is near on port (black wouldn't have luffed if yellow was ducking)

No, Black luffed to hinder Yellow - that's part of the game in match racing. Alternatively, they could have hunted them (turned down, but not below a beam reach).

Originally Posted by JeffS
. . yellow luffs up fraction of a second later, both apparently have no rights while luffed . . .

Luffing does not abrogate your rights or obligations. Black is on starboard until they pass head to wind. Yellow is on port.

Originally Posted by JeffS
. . . black first out of luff still on starboard, yellow comes out of luff fraction of a second later still on port instead of completing tack which would have avoided collision,
Yellow's only obligation is to keep clear(rule 10). Black has an obligation when she changes course, to give Yellow room to keep clear (rule 16.1).

Originally Posted by JeffS
port collides with black, black penalised.
. . . because Black did not give room to keep clear.

Originally Posted by JeffS
I assess the Corinthian part of the sport I am watching and swim to the beach
That's your choice, but this is all part of the game in match racing.

There are two umpires in the boat and they role play. One will be the yellow boat (which just happens to have yellow sails in this scenario) and the other will be the blue boat (black sails in this scenario). They carry on a constant conversation something like this:

Blue: 'Right-of-way starboard boat'
Yellow: 'Agreed, keeping clear'
Blue: 'Luffing - must give you room'
Yellow: 'Doing what I can'
Blue: 'Bearing away; Do you need more room?'
Yellow: 'Also bearing away, need more room'
Blue: 'Contact; did not give room'
Yellow: Agreed. Yankee flag; penalize blue.

Match racing is like watching two gladiators going at it - when both competitors are good at it.

Re: Impact! [Re: mbounds] #275097
08/30/14 09:39 PM
08/30/14 09:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by mbounds
Match racing is like watching two gladiators going at it - when both competitors are good at it.



"Tell me something Joey, do you like movies about Gladiators?"

[Linked Image]


I'm boatless.
Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #275098
08/30/14 10:30 PM
08/30/14 10:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Matt's post basically sums it up, except the "professional" umps (still usually volunteers, but very highly ISAF certified, and often paid for travel) will include a rule number reference with every phrase they speak.

It's hard to be in the guy's head, but every time I rewatch that clip, I think the black boat started to leebow (completely a monohull move, BTW), but went too early, realized he was about to get rolled by yellow as a result, and tried a Hail Mary attack on yellow, which failed miserably. Again, this probably would have worked in less wind, because yellow would have had a bit more time to respond.

Whenever you watch good match racing in moderate breeze, it gives you a whole new appreciation for how fast even slow boat designs can maneuver if pressed. Our fleet racing, go fast and nail the corners strategy in cat racing does us no service when trying to critique match racing on monohulls.

Mike

Re: Impact! [Re: brucat] #275100
08/31/14 06:53 AM
08/31/14 06:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by brucat
.... except the "professional" umps (still usually volunteers, but very highly ISAF certified, and often paid for travel) will include a rule number reference with every phrase they speak.

If they do, then they're not following the "efficient/effective" communication protocols in the International Umpires' and Match Racing Manual (pages D-9 to D-11). They may do that if there are observers aboard, but it's to benefit the observers, not as a regular practice.

Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #275101
08/31/14 09:41 AM
08/31/14 09:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Some of these guys have been doing this as long as I've been around, so they must have their reasons. I doubt they're adjusting just because someone else is on the boat, because it's all happening way too fast not to be their normal practice.

Their banter is typically shorter as well, such as "Starboard, right" and "port, give" (leaving out extra words like "boat," "of way," etc.). They rotate around at some events so that the same two people aren't together all day, and the banter is remarkably the same.

Mike

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