Mark,

Great plan!!!! Our old fleet moto - Shut up and sail

If you look at the calculations and aruments posted over the last couple of months we are aruing over 1-2%. You will blow way more than that in a race by missing a shift, over standing a lay line, yata, yata, yata.

There is a lack of participation in this sport. Using the excuse of weight to divide the fleets into 16, 18 etc is counter productive. My wish is to sail whatever boat has the largest start.

The continuing attempts to micromanage the formula/rules to level what is not level will just continue to provide arguments, and this class will never get off the ground.

Thanks

Matt

Hi Matt -
agree ,-the race what ya got attitude , just let em adjust the what the way they want . -
-arguements can be logically resolved and rules of the game established without too much problem , we have just been handed a difficult situation , and need a little more info .

-Hi Mark

Your on the right track, but unless we establish basic box parameters L B W and Sail AR, or equalizing scales with allowed equalizing performance factors and modifications, this will never be fair sailing, or perceived as such, What you are proposing is open ratings and calling it a class.

Do not hate anything, the best aspect of P. rating is the wind factor, {beaufort scale,

The ideal rating system would be ISAF –Texel , add the wind range factor, and add a percentage factor to rating #s based on Portsmouth as a correcting factor.
Colin {Sailwave scoring } has it set up to score races in all 3 systems, as they are more accurately ,honestly compared ,-maybe we will see this evolve. One rating rule, --a new world order, so to speak, -{joking }—All rating systems are an average estimate, and not an accurate design performance prediction of every boat , the formula would become extremely long complex and require exact almost infinite variables dependent upon wind strength and wave conditions.

-Posted weight and beam effects by Bill R –previously, -he sites the Olympic boat trials where the Tornado wins each race with its larger beam in higher wind range conditions. –this has effectively been established.

-Racks would be the only way to include 10 ft beam boats, but this may be the perfect answer for a large increase in boat performance, -beyond 16 and 18s, -would match the proposed increase in sail area to each boat, quick estimate of an added 800+ lbs of righting moment countering the thrust of sails, be compensated in any small added weight with proportional increased sail area per prop.rules, and look really great for the sponsors, -similar to popular racing skiffs. We need cost ,weight and attachment info , maybe better designs for them .-Would also revise the proposed sail area up slightly with the added factor

-Estimate racks of 2.5 ft to equalize an 8.5 b to 10 ft b design , --allowing added rack L for inboard hull weight , higher windage wing and crew , measured from leeward hull to average crew position.
The added 812.5-ft Lbs of righting moment for the average 325 LB crew is a huge boost in high wind performance, now needed on these large powerful cats.

Taking a peak into one possible future scenario of this classes evolution, --{the famous unforeseen consequences} so many talk about, --

Can envision with these new proposed more powerful cats with lightweight design and righting moment much higher top speeds.
Sailing the I-20 with its wider bow sections many have experienced a planning effect, where the boat seems to start skidding across the top. –New designs with more horsepower may realize that by adding more hull angle, beyond 6 or 8 degrees and adding slightly flatter bow hull sections with larger chutes at higher luff angles that these cats will plane, -just as sliffs do.

-We will see a huge jump in performance levels if this evolves from the 20 class,
We would then definitely have to set a modified and development class category, just as As do.
This is the wonderful aspect, draw, and interest of a more open type class.
Wouldn’t this be fun to be a part of?

All the best
Carl
-


-

Mark said organise a race to see actual performance, but you can also proces and look at race result whith large turnouts. Last means that each class has a few top dog sailors getting the max out of the boat.

These results are from Ronde tiengemeente (Corrected) of okt 2001.

A tornado has finished simultaniously with a F20 when the tornados corrected time is about 2 min 8 secs slower.

Abviously the tornado sport and F20 finished among eachother with any strong favour for either

But first the real tornado sports (all other in the main list are Classic tornado's)

Source www.hellecat.nl

Ronde Tiengemeten 2001 Tornado

Nr. Stuurman Fokkemaat Zeilnr. Zeiltijd Resultaat

1 Karsenbarg, Sven Heemskerk, Mischa 111 03:06:27 03:14:13
2 Moret, John Radelaar, Danny 148 03:14:25 03:22:31
3 Haas de, Eric Kuiper, M. 1431 03:15:42 03:23:51
4 Klaassen, Hans Smit, Marco 1301 03:17:10 03:25:23
5 Ruiters, Merijn Ruiters, Mirjam 154 03:20:24 03:28:45
6 Pols, Xander Faas, Leoniek 159 03:25:36 03:34:10
7 Wieren v, Ruurd-Jouk Dekker, Michel 142 03:29:54 03:38:39
8 Hermsen, Hans Smit, Marco 157 03:34:22 03:43:18
9 Veenman, Nico Munck de, Rene 153 03:46:59 03:56:26
10 Diks, Marcel Beest van, John 149 00:00:00 DSQ


***************************MAIN finishing list **********************

Ronde Tiengemeten 2001 Open klasse (Handicap<110)

Nr. Stuurman Fokkemaat Zeilnr. Boottype Resultaat

1 Karsenbarg, Sven Heemskerk, Mischa 111 Tornado 03:14:13
2 Bouscholte, Hans Desmedt, Peter 221 F 20 ongemeten 03:14:48
3 Colby, Gavin Voiron, Lolo 107 F 20 ongemeten 03:17:19
4 Huntelman, Vincent Harskamp van, Igor 032 F 20 ongemeten 03:20:24
5 Empel van, Erik 64 A-Cat 97 03:20:58
6 Monteny, Marcel Smeets, Joost 295 F 20 ongemeten 03:21:16
7 Moret, John Radelaar, Danny 148 Tornado 03:22:31
8 Brouwer, Paul Knol, Caroline 69 F 18 gemeten 03:22:38
9 Loos, Gerard Zeggeren van,Esther 917 F 18 gemeten 03:22:46
10 Vries de, J.T. Alessie, D. 21 F 20 ongemeten 03:22:56
11 Haas de, Eric Kuiper, M. 1431 Tornado 03:23:51
12 Meert, Eric Schell, Peter 7 F 18 gemeten 03:24:27
13 Loon van, Bas Damoisseaux, Runar 141 F 20 ongemeten 03:24:37
14 Larsen, Sascha Boer, B. de 75X F 20 ongemeten 03:24:39
15 Klaassen, Hans Smit, Marco 1301 Tornado 03:25:23
16 Smit, Arthur Jong, Erik de 11 F 18 gemeten 03:25:30
17 Kimmel, Joost Koster, Klaas 323 F 20 ongemeten 03:25:45
18 Steemeijer, Herman Poel v.d., Wampe 413 F 18 gemeten 03:25:45
19 Blom, Jan-Willem Pater de, Peter 198 F 20 ongemeten 03:25:54
20 Plas van der, Arie Maaden v.d.,Guido 5X F 20 ongemeten 03:26:44
21 Vogel, Joop Vogel, Lien 572 F 18 ongemeten 03:26:52
22 Nes van, Hans Fris, Jolanda 400 F 18 gemeten 03:27:38
23 Demesmaeker, Brouwere 704 F 18 ongemeten 03:28:03
Patrick de,Frederic
24 Ruiters, Merijn Ruiters, Mirjam 154 Tornado 03:28:45
25 Boer de, Willem Held de, Robert 298 F 20 ongemeten 03:28:56
26 Mol, Maarten Bloemsma, Peter 747 F 20 ongemeten 03:30:43
27 Hollander den, Leen Mulder, Sander 2X F 20 ongemeten 03:31:17
28 Klootwijk, Rob Vos de , Rene 306 F 20 ongemeten 03:31:26
29 Plas v.d.Arie jr. Pool, Eddy 8 F 18 gemeten 03:31:45
30 Breur, Hans Buyse, Paul 296 F 20 ongemeten 03:31:51
31 Meulen Hin, Frans 839 F 18 gemeten 03:31:53
v.d.ReindertJ
32 Nagtzaam, Wim Ouwehand, Alice 756 F 18 gemeten 03:32:04
33 Zwitser, Dirk Leeuwen van, Jeroen 95 F 20 ongemeten 03:32:21
34 Boers, Eelco Blokzijl, Jurjen 034 F 20 ongemeten 03:32:22
35 Ouwehand, Bram Ouwehand,Hans 308 F 20 ongemeten 03:32:55
36 Straakenbroek, Jaap Braber den, Besman 11111 F 20 ongemeten 03:33:18
37 Brouwer, Albert Dun, Martijn van 246 F 20 ongemeten 03:33:26
38 Tobias,Marieke Bogaards, Diana 591 F 18 gemeten 03:33:28
dames
39 Geijssen, Willem Welleman, Michel 691 F 20 ongemeten 03:33:30
40 Philippron,Jean-Cla Nelissen, Luc 278 F 20 ongemeten 03:33:54
u
41 Hofman, Arien Zuijderwijk, John 10 F 20 ongemeten 03:34:00
42 Bokma, Karel Reisenbach, Garmt 261 F 20 ongemeten 03:34:06
43 Pols, Xander Faas, Leoniek 159 Tornado 03:34:10
44 Nieuwenhuis, Dick Geuze, Mark 293 F 20 ongemeten 03:34:14
45 Salverius, Cor Teunissen, Fred 128 F 20 ongemeten 03:34:35
46 Franken, Henri 801 A-Cat 97 03:35:24
47 Cichocki, Piotr Bouscholte, Ronald 312 F 20 ongemeten 03:36:01
48 Dam van, Coert Dam van, Marius 0 F 18 gemeten 03:36:07
49 Visser, Jan Visser, Stuart 883 F 18 gemeten 03:36:21
50 Wouda, Jurjen Wouda, Jouke 172 F 18 gemeten 03:36:32
51 Boer de, Sander Rijs van, Bart 604 F 18 gemeten 03:36:44
52 Pool, Dirk 56 Hobie FX one spi 03:36:54
53 Lub, Ron Lub, Remco 641 F 18 ongemeten 03:37:07
54 Weiblen, Dirk 502 A-Cat Spi 03:37:10
55 Bouwman, Pieter Visser, Hans 091 F 20 ongemeten 03:37:37
56 Hirschmann, Ronald Vos, Lauw 139 F 20 ongemeten 03:37:45
57 Durinck, Edwin Heuvel v.d., Dick 8888 F 18 ongemeten 03:38:33 58 Wieren v, Dekker, Michel 142 Tornado 03:38:39
Ruurd-Jouk
59 Buse, Paul Buse, Willemien 291 F 20 ongemeten 03:39:19
60 Hengst Hengst 167 F 20 ongemeten 03:39:21
61 Lunen van, Jeroen Vrijburg, Sjoerd 018 F 20 ongemeten 03:39:28
62 Dekien, Stef Tanghe, Boudewijn 212 F 20 ongemeten 03:39:46
63 Smit, Steven Rhyn, Harry van 208 F 20 ongemeten 03:40:11
64 Hilbrands, Martin Kwast, Michiel vd 037 F 20 ongemeten 03:40:20
65 Giethoorn, Ronald Kwast van der, Phil 130 F 20 ongemeten 03:40:37
66 Kerstens, J. Muiderman, W. 132 Tornado classic 03:40:43
67 Jongen, George 798 A-Cat 97 03:41:06
68 Schrijver, R. Schrijver-BrouwerS. 652 F 18 ongemeten 03:41:19
J
69 Krijger, Kees Hekken v., Rene 536 F 18 ongemeten 03:41:20
70 Griffioen, Arie Griffioen, Louis 123 F 20 ongemeten 03:41:22
71 Vanhaverbeke, Bart Verhaghe, Hans 764 F 18 ongemeten 03:41:35
72 Ruesink, Geert Haas v.d.,Raymond 186 Taipan 4.9 (spi) 03:41:51
73 Binnekamp, Dirk Vliet van, Peter 607 F 18 gemeten 03:42:33
74 Feldmann, Uwe Gretencord, Klaus 927 Nacra 570 03:42:33
75 Vercruyssen, Erwin Verstraeten, Wim 311 F 20 ongemeten 03:42:54
76 Haan de, Remko Vliet van der, Pim 190 F 20 ongemeten 03:42:54
77 Hermsen, Hans Smit, Marco 157 Tornado 03:43:18
78 Fontaine,Patrick Verlinde, Jan 188 F 18 ongemeten 03:44:07
79 Lebrun, Vincent Bernier, Joe 263 F 18 gemeten 03:44:11
80 Berghorst, Jan Uit den 1X F 20 ongemeten 03:44:48
Bosch,Marinu
81 Verbrugh, Jerphaas Verbrugh, Erica 230 F 20 ongemeten 03:44:56
82 Born, Jan-Peter Velde te, Arend 699 F 18 ongemeten 03:45:06
83 Herssens, Marc Herssens, Michele 285 F 18 gemeten 03:45:12
84 Halleux de, Simpelaere, Benoit 20 F 18 gemeten 03:45:45
Philippe
85 Remeijer, Remco Slot van 764 F 18 gemeten 03:45:46
't,Marielle
86 Veenstra, Sjaak Spijker, Martin 138X F 20 ongemeten 03:45:57
87 Cok, Eric Tesselhoff, Fanni 1 F 18 gemeten 03:46:38
88 Breemans, Manuelle Vaesen, Danny 112 F 18 gemeten 03:46:55
89 Peel, Stan Goris, Philip 562 F 18 ongemeten 03:46:58
90 Gils van, Wilco Gils,Noort v., Iris 636 Nacra 5.5 Sloop 03:47:21
91 Butz, Geert 17 A-Cat 97 03:47:45
92 Kant, Robbert Schipper, Daaf 151 F 20 ongemeten 03:47:58
93 Kloppers, Ruigrok, 732 F 18 gemeten 03:48:19
94 Emeis, Henk Bruijne de, Rens 232 F 20 ongemeten 03:48:28
95 Kersseboom, Danny Zon van, Erik 1270 Hobie 18 Formula 03:49:05
96 Heemskerk,Piet Hoogendijk, Antje 22 Dominator spi 03:49:20
97 Lampier, E.H. 10X Nacra 18-2 03:49:26
98 Streep, K. Thamer 505 Nacra inter18 03:49:43
99 Nijgh, Pieter Schie van, Anton 143 F 20 ongemeten 03:49:50
100 Wolters, Henk 84 Nacra Inter 17 03:50:21
101 Kruijff, Raymon Korzaan, Renske 627 F 18 gemeten 03:50:37
102 Vercouteren, Menno Haas de, Jolande 442 F 18 ongemeten 03:50:52
103 Kerstholt, Cas Berg v.d.,Edgar 422 F 18 ongemeten 03:50:56
104 Ambtman, Leo Veenstra, Tjiddo 1381 Tornado classic 03:51:18
105 Wienke, Ernst Wienke, Heleen 968 Hobie 18 Formula 03:51:38
106 Careel, Daniel Carbonez, Pascal 29 F 18 gemeten 03:51:39
107 Romme, Johan Beelen van, 655 F 18 ongemeten 03:52:14
Caroline
108 Zalm van der, Dirk Somers, Jan 641X F 18 ongemeten 03:52:16
109 Koster, J.J.A. Hovenkamp, Egbert 178 F 20 ongemeten 03:52:40
110 Berg van den, Hans 81 A-Cat 97 03:53:01
111 Weber,Doris damest. Bohrer, Irmgard 092 F 18 ongemeten 03:53:17
112 Overveld, Wim Ruiter de, Krijn 626 F 18 ongemeten 03:53:35
113 Boheemen, P.L.M. 110 A-Cat 97 03:53:55
114 Deelman, Jaxon Gase, Robin 157X F 20 ongemeten 03:53:58
115 Tuinman, Annelies Tuinman, Johan 121 F 18 ongemeten 03:54:02
116 Allaart, Bernard Hoofdman, Hilde 673 F 18 ongemeten 03:55:21
117 Verbrugh, Robert Bakelaar, Teunis 962 Nacra 570 03:55:28118 Steens, Scott Brandt, Manon 560 F 18 ongemeten 03:55:46
119 Wijk van, Thies Wijk van, David 568 F 18 gemeten 03:55:53
120 Jong de, Nico Zuurmond, Rob 189 F 20 ongemeten 03:56:02
121 Fluit, Rene Boer den, Annemarie 5621 Nacra 5.5 Raid 03:56:23
122 Veenman, Nico Munck de, Rene 153 Tornado 03:56:26
123 Dam van, Boris Roling, Heleen 758 F 18 gemeten 03:56:29
124 Timmermans, Michael Nieuwveen, Ramon 682 F 18 ongemeten 03:56:41
125 Koster, Koos Besselink, Michael 1787 Topcat K1 big 03:57:26
126 Kempen, Cees van Drongelen, Bert van 60 F 18 ongemeten 03:57:54
127 Cieremans, Joop Dittner, Jeroen 133 Tornado classic 03:58:01
128 Vermolen, Ronald Molenaar, Peter 131 Tornado classic 03:58:16
129 Wit de,Gradus Gelens, Cees 1999 Prindle 19 03:58:42
130 Jansen, Frans Rijn van, Ben 206 F 20 ongemeten 03:59:08
131 Harms, Rob Walrave, Albert 2000 F 20 ongemeten 03:59:20
132 Dijk v.,Jan Dijk v.,Koen 389 Prindle 18-2 03:59:59
133 Diependaal, Martin Jas, Jos 093 F 20 ongemeten 04:00:13
134 Nobel, Bas Kleijweg, Rikko 667 Nacra 5.7 04:00:53
135 Hiemstra,Jelle Kapsenberg, Roeland 127 Prindle 18-2 04:01:41
Geert
136 Spaas, Rolph Biewenga, Tjasse 288 Nacra 6.0 04:01:44
137 Bouten, Kris Goris, Katrien 75 Mattia 18 spi 04:02:07
138 Grunwald,Mirjamdame Verbeeten, Josje 341 Prindle 18-2 04:02:29
s
139 Deltour, Jan Dessoy, Katryn 527 F 18 ongemeten 04:02:33
140 Lussenburg, Patrick Kleij, Marcel 356 Nacra 6.0 Raid 04:03:04
141 Plantinga, Elles Berger, Peter 15283 Hobie 18 04:04:40
142 Wiersema, Kees Vos, Peter-Jan 504 F 18 gemeten 04:05:30
143 Lemmens, Carol Budde, Jerome 506 Prindle 18-2 04:06:00
144 Ouwehand, Huud Ouwehand, Leen 3 Nacra 5.5 Sloop 04:06:23
145 Kleijn, Cees Grinwis, Teun 10801 Hobie 18 04:06:42
146 Spaay, Ron Corvers, John 233 F 20 ongemeten 04:06:49
147 Reus de, Gijs Helders, Pauline 514 Dart 20 04:07:24
148 Gier de, C. Peter 15287 Hobie 18 04:07:34
149 Schrama, Jan Schrama, Arnoud 410 Hurricane 5.9 04:07:43
150 Schaaper, Martijn Schaaper, Floris 129 Nacra 6.0 04:07:46
151 Pauw de, Iwan Tanghe, Bart 329X Nacra 6.0 Raid 04:08:36
152 Vollmann, Peter Sowinski, Jakub 526 Prindle 19 spi 04:08:59
153 Meer van der, Groot de, Boris 339 Nacra 6.0 04:10:18
Pieter
154 Vlijmen van, J.A.R. Heuvel van den, J. 444 Prindle 19 04:10:30
155 Oosterlynck, Kurt Vandekerckhove, 634 F 18 ongemeten 04:11:21
Myra
156 Jongbloed, Pouw Jongbloed, Helene 3901 Dart 20 04:12:09
157 Houdtzagers, Rene Weerd de, Edwin 472 Nacra 5.5 Sloop 04:12:22
158 Scheers van, Zwijnenburg, Martin 331 Nacra 6.0 04:12:46
GertJan
159 Feddes, Robert Smit, Henry 126X Nacra 5.5 Sloop 04:12:55
160 Lemmens, Victor Henquet, Cecile 239 Nacra 5.5 Sloop 04:13:08
161 Oorthuizen, Mick Oorthuizen, Bram 537 Nacra 5.5 Raid 04:13:24
162 Kanders, Theo Kanders, 289 Nacra 6.0 04:15:51
Theo-Willem
163 Kok, Heleen N.Tanis 319 Nacra 6.0 04:21:01
164 Saelens, Rudi Averbeke van,Joost 582 F 18 gemeten 04:21:06
165 Freijsen, Servaas Vermeulen, Jurgen 412 Nacra 5.5 Sloop 04:21:51
166 Ameijden v.,Sjaak Kaaden v.d., Eric 146X Prindle 18-2 04:23:32
167 Tappermann, Rolf Plateel, Dennis 13632 Hobie 18 04:25:31
168 Karenbeld,Hendrikja Vlies van 554 Nacra 5.5 Raid 04:27:13
n der,Mirjam
169 Ammerlaan, P. Ammerlaan-Schakenr. 338 Nacra 5.5 Sloop 04:29:19
J
170 Sollie, Roel 47 A-Cat 97 04:32:04
171 Jeurissen, Frans Gerritsen, Adrie 450 Nacra 5.5 Sloop 04:32:32
172 Kijf, Michael Meelberg, Michael 57 F 18 gemeten DNF
173 Gelens, Serge Vugt, Ben van 273 Nacra 5.5 Sloop DNF
174 Evengroen, Wilbert Daleman, Rene 5 Nacra 6.0 Raid DNF
175 Kooiman, R.E. Kalis, N. 329 Prindle 18-2 DNF 176 Siep, Carlo Siep, Hans 97337 Hobie 18 Formula DNF
177 Plokker, Wim Voogt, Jantina 810 F 18 gemeten DNF
178 Kappetijn, Herman Olie, Mark 3X F 18 gemeten DSQ
179 Diks, Marcel Beest van, John 149 Tornado DSQ
180 Bokma, W. Timmers, G. 251 F 20 ongemeten DSQ
181 Stoelinga, Erik Dorp, Rob van 23 F 20 ongemeten DSQ
182 Deventer, Peter van Krijthe, Chris 31 F 20 ongemeten DSQ
183 Larsen, Gunnar Geest van, Gerhard 792 F 18 gemeten DSQ
184 Saarberg, Pieter 1XX A-Cat 97 DSQ
185 Heijden Wijk v.d., B. 366 Nacra 6.0 DSQ
v.d.W.H.J.JM
186 Mulder, Rene Schophorst, Kees 674 F 18 gemeten DSQ
187 Balink, Hans Koningslow, Michiel 191 F 20 ongemeten DSQ
188 Dalen van, Ad Imlau, Caroline 035 Hurricane 5.9 DSQ
189 Meyers, Olivier Guisset, Jean-Louis 25 F 18 gemeten DSQ
190 Dijke v,Marjan Hoondert, Sabrina 284 Nacra 5.5 Sloop DSQ
dames
191 Asselt van, Fred Hoeve, Jack 923 Nacra 570 spi DSQ
192 Rakke, Henk Rakke, Ton 63 Miracle 6.0 DSQ
193 Seumeren van, Robin Platteel, Dennis 404 Nacra 5.5 Sloop DSQ
194 Assche van, Kim Assche van, An 408 Nacra 5.5 Sloop DSQ

And here online results with elapsed time quotes

Source www.hellecat.nl again. These are from the oktober bokaal ; a 4 racedays competition in as many weeks.

http://www.hellecat.nl/pop/uitslagen%20oktober%20totaal.html

Hi Matt

With reguard to the rating differences... I would not minimize them.... Acknowledge that they are real BUT.... at the regional level the skill factor on the tiller is probably a 5 % difference. I think people choose their boats for lots of reasons other then rating number. For instance, The I20 is fast, carries weight well but I don't like the look of the hulls ....purely irrational choice on my part. This choice factor is why we have so many designs to choose from.

With reguard to sailing in the largest class... I think that ignores the changes that are occuring in the market place. Why are Hobie 18's not popular any longer? P19's... N 5.8's. We must manage carefully or we will drop people out of the sport. (unless you are serious... you will not keep up with the hot class boat type) Consider that Spin's have cut the performance big boat fleet into two halves. H20's and N6.0's and Tornado's and I20's. What fleet would you join right now, if the rule is that you hold onto your boat for 5 years. UhOh... the F18 class seems to offer a lot of advantages over these classes. Will it grow or flounder.... Hmmm.

These are the issues facing a sailboat racer from another non cat class... . Thow in local differences... they survey the cat scene and go. Nah.. Melges 24's look good..

How about the guy on a budget buying your old 5.8, They may turn into a race nut but without a competitive venue for them you have no chance.

Seems to me we need to get ahead of the curve here. We need a sustainable racing structure that allows new sailors and new racers a clear entry into the sport. Design a racing scene that is rooted in the Hobie /CRAM one design regatta system but is more inclusive...

1) Race the 5 H20's with the 5 N 6.0's on portsmouth... Also score one design.
2) Race the F18's and F20's together until you get to start lines with over 20 boats and then reevaluate. Also score one design.

With respect to weight.... Well it looks like you can probably race an F18 over a 70 lb weight range from 280 to 350 with their equalization scheme I think you MUST ddress the weight issue up front. The F18's have a min of 330 for the big sails. Everyone who is close will add weight to get the big sails. They have a scheme that appears fair for a huge weight range...
This is clearly different then one design sailing and something we should keep.

Seems to me that the 20 niche is going to be 330 to 420. Set a min of 350 and allow them to add weight. I think the formula class should go with two chute sizes to equalize down wind performnance and have the option to get sails from any vendor and measure them in.

I think we should move the f20 fleet to a minimum of 350 with an expected range to 420. Peg the rating at 95 and let designers build future boats to that rating

With respect to your point of leveling what is not level.
Well of course this depends on your point of view... The only level playing field is teams of the same weight on the same boat with the same sails.. Give this criteriia no class is truly level... they are always compromises. . I would not choose to define the current 20 scene as impossible to level...

We need to consider all aspects.
Racing structure
Builder supprt
Racer bias's prejudices support.
Design constraints.

The rank order that i listed are the order that I think we need to address.

My proposal: Formula 18 and 20 boats in one start scored overall, formula, and one design within the hobie/Cram one design structure. Championships could be more restrictive.

Builders already build to a texel of 95/96... lock the rule in and declare it the defacto if20 rule.

Define a minimum of 350 correctable with dead weight. Implement two spin sizes for weight correction. Maintain one design scoring as well as formula scoring.

Design constraints... The texel formula was updated for 2002 The rule has general acceptance in Europe.... Get builder feedback on what it means to lock in a texel rating of 95... Will there be a rule beater to emerge?

Allow Marstrom and other High tech craft to race in open untill they are a significant racing subset.

I think the goals expressed, while good intentioned, are not practical and must be narrowed.
Many of the goals are contradictory.
Choose 1-
Bring more boats (numbers) into the class.
Bring all 20' boats into the class.
Choose 1-
Make it inexpensive enough that more people will modify their boat.
Make the NAF 20 the fastest boat on the water.
Choose 1-
Make the class rules flexible and inclusive.
Make the racing even.
Choose 1-
Make the class popular.
Make the class complicated.
Choose 1-
Include the Tornado.
Include more boats.
Choose 1-
Make the Class better(faster).
Make the racing better.
Choose1-
Waste time worrying about other classes.
Focus on making the NAF 20 work.
Choose 1-
Keep discussing pie-in-the-sky ideas.
Make the Class happen.

Scrape the crud off your shoes and focus on what CAN be done.

Hi Mark -

Interesting proposal , -you basically set a Texel rating number at the Tornado , and race all boats below it .

-You can easily expand this thinking , --have the U S adopt Texel or ISAF for small cats -DESIGN MEASUREMENT -ratings as opposed to Porthmouth. -- ---- this rule concept can easily be applied to all classes and catamarans uniformly . 16 -18-and 20 classes, -and up.

By establishing a max number for each start at distance races or regattas -high middle low -Texel or ISAF--all boat designs have the opportunity to race equally to this number .

--Joking with you little here Mark ,--have been advocating this for the last 3 years , with your objections and insistance and mission statement to race only Porthmouth.

The aspect missing is of course allowing and excouraging modification of existing similar rated boats and new cat designs built to this max .rating that would eventually allow all boats to form equall classes. {equal fair sailing } -remember the goal.

What modifications are allowed to each 20 listed to bring it up to an equall rating , -in this proposal ,-how do boats upgrade and modify up to the Tornado rating ,--how do we insure FAIR SAILING -
-the definitions begin .

If you look at existing 16 and 18 F Classes there are pages of definitions and exact specification ,lists of weights and sail areas . An effort to define a-{class } and insure fair equal racing.
The "rulebeaters " you mention and dismiss by placing onus on builders and ratings are numerous . --thus the reason we see class rules and more definition.
ISAF or TEXEL are rating systems formulated to rate all boats with all design characteristics .

-The basics of rating systems -the box ,-are Length ,-Beam ,-weight,-and sail area,
I suggest a simplified more inclusive class definition , setting length ,-beam , and a sail area to weight uniform scale that all boats can easily understand and modify to , to define class .

-If wider beam designs than 8.5 ft are desired in the class then lets specifically address the problem of how to allow other designs an equal fair modification , for equal performance . -
-There are some good photos of racks -wings on the Mystere web site , ----currently need info on their cost ,-weight , -and attachment , --and opinion on if this beam option is practical .

Carl

Gents,,

I do not believe that Mystere has produced wings for quite some time. And those photo's of M6.0's wth racks would be 5 or 6 years old, and likely custom produced in Europe, to boot.

Bottom line is, that I doubt that they would be available.


Keep at least one hull in the air !!!
Alan Maguire

Hi Carl

A couple of points underlying my proposal.
1) I do not think that many H20'm P19 mx or N 5.8's will reconfigure to meet ANY new f20 rule for 2 reasons. 1) The H20's in particular are racing in class as a sloop rig. There is no evidence that they are chomping at the bit for spinakers unless they use them for distance racing. If they want to race chutes they have two choices, f18 and Inter 20/tornado 2) These boats are probably older ... not as stiff as new boats and probably would not be competitive with an upgrade. They would be very skeptical of investing in a spinaker main and jib to begin with... couple that with a tenuous racing scene for this boat... Will they or won't they get to race the I20 heads up... I just don't see it.
Note also the naf18 group refused to bring in any of the older 18 footers into their class. (They are strictly Twisters, tigers, I18's and F18's.)

The N6.0 class in New England will hold together so long as the majority are interested in sloop racing around triangles.

This boat could easily match the I20 with respect to performance using the texel formula rule.

Portsmouth will be absolutely required to keep these sailors racing. It works. Hopefully we would have enough participation to have a spin and non spin start with several divisions split out.

Take a look at SAiling World editiorial about PHRF, Americap and IOR... The debate over rating systems extends though out sailing. The majority of sail racing uses a performance handicap system ...

I am supporting the formula 20 effort in the hope that a multi builder class will be viable. I think that you can decide to grandfather Mystere 6.0 , Nacra 6.0 and I20 and Fox and Tornado. Allow them to upgrade to a 2002 Texel value of 95.... right now... that is a 38 sec per hour spread, between Fox at 96 and Mystere at a 95 texel rating.

Race for a year and see where you are. IF one boat is dominant because of technical boat design.... the formula class will fold. (We can only hope that the Tiger and F18 are equal in performance.) If the class can achieve critical mass by offering something more then one design that will be fantastic.

(I have to tell you...my eyes glaze over when I read the technical rules in your prior posts..... Help me out with English first.)

I agree the technical details will follow... First... how much support is there for this kind of proposal.


Take Care
Mark

thanks Alan ,
From the photos it appears the racks are simple alum .tubes in rectangular shape with rounded edge connectors , covered by tramp material angled up slightly and addached to the crossbeams .
I,m sure improved designs can be made readily available or built without much expence .
Snuffers are carbon f tubes , this or even plastics may possibley be used, -the connection is the interesting design feature to solve. -

-18 skiffs use huge 10 ft racks , though supported by stays , -not needed with 2.5 ft racks . suprizingly even this size adds an added 800+ ft lbs of righting moment for the average 325 LB crew.
Do a quick estimate on the 18 skiff racks ,-or older Worrell cats that added 12 ft racks to a N 6/0 and others . 325 times 12 =-whew , -
you get a sence of the sail carrying ability and potential top speeds of these craft.

-Raced the Hobie 21 in Prosail and Ultimate Yacht race events in 88 , --The 21 {though very heavy }-has wings , they are fun , easy to get accustome to , add top speed performance , and are a great place to attach spin blocks to for better sheeting angles .

All designer have stated that the existing 20s are overpowered , --the speed potential of 20s is limited by its righting moment = 8.5 beam , allowing 16 and 18s better speed potential in some conditions. --What reason do the 8.5 beam 20 ft cats have to exist in their present forms as new 16 and 18 designs sail by at higher speeds , what is the attraction of this configuration of boat , -other than it requires larger people to hold it down in a breeze.

-Should we base a class soley on any existing design , the I-20 ? Tornado ? --Should we accept duplicate and compound design errors and problems of existing designs , or set an ideal standard and the difficult task of attempting to unify all existing racing 20s. for equal performance class FAIR Sailing , --
-Believe once it is refined it will fall within a minute margin within the ISAF -Texel ratings ,

Carl-
-



-