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#53888 - 08/05/05 07:32 PM Re: some sailmakers around? [Re: Wouter]
rbj Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 186
Wouter,

In an earlier post describing key improvements for a fully optimized F16 vs T4.9 you included:

-7- Sheeting the mast rotation of the trampoline instead of the boom is in my opinion another improvement that needs to be incorporated in all F16's. It allows full depowering when letting the main traveller out. Something that is less pronounced with the old system. It also cuts down on complexity.

On which fully optimized F16 boats is this standard (ie, Blade, Stealth, etc)? Is this implemented so one can control mast rotation from either trap (along with DH)?

I'd also be interested if there's any links you know of which describe the details of the rigging of these boats (ie, how the stock spi hoist/snuffer rigging is implemented, etc).

Thanks,

Jerry

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#53889 - 08/05/05 08:42 PM Re: some sailmakers around? [Re: rbj]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe

Quote:


On which fully optimized F16 boats is this standard (ie, Blade, Stealth, etc)?






Vectorworks Blade F16. European Blade F16 is still deciding what to do.

Stealths and Taipans sheet the rotation of the boom. In case of the Stealth I don't think it matter much, this is because its mast behaves differently from the superwing sections as featured on the Taipans and Blades.

Also note that my comment refers ONLY to boats that are sailed WITH a spinnaker. On boats without the spinnaker an argument can be had how the system that sheets the rotation of the boom is more attractive. It all comes down to the way a spinnaker changes the boats behaviour. Flying the spi negates certain points and thus elevates other points.


Quote:


Is this implemented so one can control mast rotation from either trap (along with DH)?






On the Vectorworks Blade F16 = Yes.

Quote:


I'd also be interested if there's any links you know of which describe the details of the rigging of these boats (ie, how the stock spi hoist/snuffer rigging is implemented, etc).






There aren't such link really. Just look really carefully at the pictures made of these boats. Often you can puzzle back how things work. Also it is easily enough to modify a stock setup yourself. I'm sorry that I can't be of more help here.

The builders themselfs are this first point of contact for these questions. I'm still doing all this pro-bono.

Sorry,

Wouter
_________________________
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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#53890 - 08/05/05 10:59 PM boat rigging [Re: Wouter]
sjon Offline
journeyman

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 86
Loc: Netherlands
Robi has done a great job by publishing a lot of pictures which show how the Blade is set up. It would be very helpful and also will promote the class if there would be an even more extensive rigging or assembly guide. Of course the producers could do something about this. As an example Hobie has an assembly manual on the web:

http://www.hobiecat.com/support/pdfs/fxoneassy.pdf

Pictures tell often more than a lot of words

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#53891 - 08/06/05 07:00 PM Re: some sailmakers around? [Re: Wouter]
rbj Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 186
Wouter and Sjon,

Thanks for the great input.

It's amazing how much better a well rigged boat feels and sails than one that's not set up as carefully. Although I like rigging and have completely re-rigged boats in the past, I'd rather spend my time sailing. There's a lot of value added to having a boat well rigged from day one by the manufacturer so things won't have to be substantially changed by every user. Although it's true that some things are a matter of personal taste, its also true that some things work reasonably well for most people and others work poorly for nearly everyone so I'd hope that these excellent boats are set up more in line with the former. Having well designed line handling systems that are accessible from the right part of the boat, that keep excess line out of the way (ie, via bungee return), that are fast to rig and takedown, and that don't get tangled and/or fall overboard let you enjoy the boat more and keep your head out of the boat. Especially when singlehanding I can imagine that the spi hoist/douse system is cruicial. Why make eveyone reinvent the wheel? I think what I'd really like to see is a few different rigging options for critical systems (based on the collective experience of what works well) at the time of a new boat purchase - although some implementations would be more expensive I'm sure that many people would opt for them if that's what they really wanted since it would still be less expensive in the long term compared to paying for things to be rigged one way and then paying again (in time and materials) to redo it. And that's not counting the time and money spent on experimentation...

Jerry

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#53892 - 08/08/05 07:45 AM Re: self tacking jib [Re: rbj]
ironman Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 7
Loc: Australia, NSW, Sydney
Interesting posts, I get the general consensus opinion that a self tacking jib frees up space on the tramp, lets the crew focus on the main and improves tacking. Sorry for my ignorance but how do I convert from the standard Taipan configuration to a self tacking system. Does any one have a picture that shows a self tacking system so that I can work it out?

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#53893 - 08/08/05 11:07 AM self tacking jib pics [Re: ironman]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe
Quote:


Interesting posts, I get the general consensus opinion that a self tacking jib frees up space on the tramp, lets the crew focus on the main and improves tacking. Sorry for my ignorance but how do I convert from the standard Taipan configuration to a self tacking system. Does any one have a picture that shows a self tacking system so that I can work it out?






Converting is actually relative easy. You'll need to a drill and a good rivet tang that can blind rivet 4.9 mm monel rivets. You can't use plain alu rivets as then you'll just pull the track of the beam. Apart from that you'll just have to invest some time to carefully position the track in the right place.

AHPC can supply the selftacking track and required fittings and I must say that this track (that I have on my own boat) work well. All the other stuff is just standard Ronstan gear.

1 new jib cut for the selftacking system (I don't know know if the old jib can be recut)
1 curved track (AHPC)
1 car + small block attached
8 monel rivets
4 small blocks or 2 cheek blocks + 2 small blocks (depending on how you inmplement the sheeting system)
piece small (about 3mm )diameter line (for final stage of cascading purchase in sheet line)
piece of larger diameter line (about 6 mm) (for first stage of cascading purchase in sheet line)
2 360 degrees swivelcleats (RF57)

possibly a piece of 5 mm bungee line and a plastic or alu ring. This is used to pull the sheet line tight to the tramp while leading it all the way back to close to the rearbeam. This is handy in high winds as then both crew and skipper are way back on the boat and you really can't get the jib sheet if it stays near the mainbeam.

Personally I advice that you'll use a 4:1 purchase in the sheet line. I sailed with 2:1 for a while but that is just too little. Also with 4:1 you can more accurately control the jib sheet. With 2:1 very small adjustments on the jib sheet create big movements of the jib leech. It is too sensitive then. I know old jibs do fine with 2:1 but the selftackers really like a 4:1 system. Additional costs are just 1 small block ; about 12 AUS$ so why not have a 4:1 system over a 2:1 ?



I think I build my selftacking system (excl cost of the jib sail itself) for 200 Euro's (=about 300 Aus$) and as such it is just as expensive or even slightly less expensive as making the old system.





Take a look at the drawing. This is the setup I have right now and I'm very happy with that. Blue is the larger diameter sheet line (first stage) and red is the thinner diameter line (second stage) Grey is the jib sail itself. Bladck is the track. The thin black line near the rearbeam is the bungee cord. You'll need to have a spi pole of a short replacement pole goign from the mainbeam to the bidles wires to sheet a selftacker on a Taipan 4.9. This will also allow you to bring the foot of the jib sail below the bridle strop and win back a sizeable amount of jib area that you will loose when removing the overlapping part of the jib. This pole is a 30 dollar item. If you sail with a spinnaker already then you have this pole already. But just short 1.5 mtr pole to the bridles will work too if you don't sail with a spi. Must not forget the bridle strut though.

Anyway, AHPC and some other first lead the jib sheet from the cleats to the base of the pole and then forward to the small blocks at the tack of the jib. I think this is without good reason. First you'll have to have more small blocks (= extra cost) and you have added work. But also the jib sheet load is highest in strong winds when both the crew is way back on the boat, especially in reaching or going downwind without a spinnaker. In my setup the jib sheet goes through the swivel cleat in a perfect straight line if the crew is way back on the luff hull and right on the mainbeam. Ergo there is no friction because the line doesn't angle inward through the guiding eye of the swivelcleat. THis makes careful sheeting just a bit easier. Also the jib sheet line is now away from other line running along the spi pole lihe the external spi halyards and the jib luff tensioning line. (no foil ups)

Also the way the jib sheet runs over the trampoline means that the skipper can bedn forward and grap the jib sheet and adjust it. Something that the skipper WILL do when the crew is playing the mainsheet. And this reversal of sheets is VERY FAST when done right.

The bungee is tied a little bit different then what you would expect but there are good reasons for it. The bungee is tied paraller to the rear beam and it runs through the ring (free) just like the jib sheet itself. Now the bungee will pull the jib sheet towards the rearbeam (=tight) but it will not pull it to the centre of the rearbeam when the skipper lets it fall on the trampoline after or when he is/has adjusted the jib. This make handling it more comfortable. You also need less sheet line as the ring itself will move about the trampoline in an elliptical arc. Always keeping it relatively tight while allowing sheeting from nearly anywhere on the trampoline.

My advice is to start with this setup and see if you like it as well. I have gone through several setups and this is the lastest version and I'm actually pretty satisfied with. I think that I'm keeping it.

In teh conditions I had over the last months it had to work very well or you were in alot of trouble. We consistantly has over 20 knots of wind during our races with a very confused and rought seastate.

In the follow up posts are some photographs.


Good luck

Wouter


Attachments
55055-Drawing_selftaking_jib_setup.gif (151 downloads)



Edited by Wouter (08/08/05 11:07 AM)
_________________________
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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#53894 - 08/08/05 11:09 AM Photograph 1 [Re: Wouter]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe
..



Attachments
55056-KODAK 214_30%.JPG (47 downloads)



Edited by Wouter (08/08/05 11:10 AM)
_________________________
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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#53895 - 08/08/05 11:11 AM Re: Photograph 2 [Re: Wouter]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe
..



Attachments
55057-Typhoon_F16_selftacking_jib_rail_feet.jpg (47 downloads)



Edited by Wouter (08/08/05 11:12 AM)
_________________________
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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#53896 - 08/08/05 11:13 AM Re: Photograph 3 [Re: Wouter]
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe
..



Attachments
55058-Typhoon_F16_selttacking_jib_rail_overall.jpg (61 downloads)



Edited by Wouter (08/08/05 11:13 AM)
_________________________
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands

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#53897 - 08/08/05 10:09 PM Re: Photograph 3 [Re: Wouter]
Darryn Online   confused
addict

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Your might want to take off that excess Duralac with some MEK, Acetone or White Spirit. Contains Barium Chromate,
MSDS link
http://www.llewellyn-ryland.co.uk/downloads/duralacm.pdf

Darryn

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