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#93405 - 01/09/07 08:13 PM Re: 2007 UK travellers trophy [Re: Jalani]
pdwarren Offline
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Registered: 07/06/05
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Loc: Oxford, UK
Quote:

Can you give an 'official' view on this please Paul?



I would agree that in principle, the format of the Nationals (sorry, Nations Cup) should be set down by the UK class association. This is something that we should determine at the inaugural AGM (which I suggest should be in the bar at Datchet during the training weekend in April).

For 2007, the class association has not formally played a role in determining other aspects of the Nations Cup (venue, number of days, number of races) as it doesn't exist. Therefore, I believe that the question of discards should be between the organisers and the people planning to sail, and should be determined in the way that we've agreed on the other issues.

As chair of the not-yet-formed UKF16A, I'm quite happy to dictate an answer on this point - but I bet I don't need to, and I'd like to hear some other opinions first anyway.

Paul

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#93406 - 01/09/07 08:45 PM Re: 2007 UK travellers trophy [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
pdwarren Offline
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Personally, I'm in favour of some discards (i.e. 1 or 2 for 12 races). I really don't have any preference for which one, and if the choice between 1 or 2 makes the difference of a place at the Nations Cup then it'll give us something interesting to argue about for the rest of the series

I'm particularly interested to see that the Olympics are reducing the number of discards. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who knows the background to this.

Paul

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#93407 - 01/09/07 08:55 PM Re: 2007 UK travellers trophy [Re: pdwarren]
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Quote:

A major part of the idea behind the new Medal Race format and moving to just one discard in the Olympic Games was to make the sport more accessible and understandable.


This from the president of ISAF, Göran Petersson. I dont know why just one discard makes the sport more accessible and understandable. Full text at: http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?PID=19823

BTW: 1 or 2 discards for 12 races. 2 races pr. day make that a 6 day event + measuring and travel. OR there must be more than two races pr. day.

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#93408 - 01/09/07 09:09 PM Re: 2007 UK travellers trophy [Re: pdwarren]
Jalani Offline
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Loc: Essex, UK
OK, my two penn'orth - I support the idea of the medal race, it certainly concentrates the mind at the end of the series. However, I can't see the rationale behind ruining someones series over an undiscardable bad placing that may have not been that person's fault.

For example I remember being in a port/stbd incident at Kiel week one year when an Italian T tacked too late and right in front of me just as I bore away to go astern of him - OUCH! I lost two races as a result but fortunately was able to use my discards and still have a reasonable series, placing 33rd out of 80 something. My point is that an incident may have repercussions for subsequent races and may not have been the fault of the person suffering the loss. I think that 1 discard after 6 races and 2 after 10 sailed is fairer. Bear in mind that the 'norm' used to be 1 discard after every 4 races sailed during the 70s/80s.
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#93409 - 01/09/07 09:17 PM Re: 2007 UK travellers trophy [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
pdwarren Offline
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Loc: Oxford, UK
Quote:

I dont know why just one discard makes the sport more accessible and understandable.



Ah. I think it's because it simplifies the scoring for commentators. Avoids the, "but all these placings will change next race when the next discard kicks in".

Quote:


BTW: 1 or 2 discards for 12 races. 2 races pr. day make that a 6 day event + measuring and travel. OR there must be more than two races pr. day.



Where did that come from? Nations Cup will be 4 races per day.

Paul

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#93410 - 01/09/07 09:18 PM Re: 2007 UK travellers trophy [Re: Jalani]
scooby_simon Offline

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Quote:

OK, my two penn'orth - I support the idea of the medal race, it certainly concentrates the mind at the end of the series. However, I can't see the rationale behind ruining someones series over an undiscardable bad placing that may have not been that person's fault.

For example I remember being in a port/stbd incident at Kiel week one year when an Italian T tacked too late and right in front of me just as I bore away to go astern of him - OUCH! I lost two races as a result but fortunately was able to use my discards and still have a reasonable series, placing 33rd out of 80 something. My point is that an incident may have repercussions for subsequent races and may not have been the fault of the person suffering the loss. I think that 1 discard after 6 races and 2 after 10 sailed is fairer. Bear in mind that the 'norm' used to be 1 discard after every 4 races sailed during the 70s/80s.



Agree John, and my reasons for proposing 2 discards.

Sounds like we need a ballot of some form for the Nations Cup !
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#93411 - 01/09/07 09:33 PM Re: 2007 UK travellers trophy [Re: pdwarren]
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Aha, if it is for the commentators we need to remove all discards and all protest opportunities. But then there is a risk that the best sailor will not be the one on top of the list after the last race. I dont see the argument really. It's a bit like giving the pole vault jumpers one go at it. No trouble explaining that just the best jump counts there? I must confess that I dont think this partial revamping for TV is good for the sport. Better to run heats like the sprinters and let the boats qualify for the finals. Then run best of three races there. Should be plenty exiting, but harsh on the sailors. But sailing will not be exiting for viewers whatever is done, unless the producers start changing focus on their production. There lies the real problem.

Quote:

Where did that come from? Nations Cup will be 4 races per day.


Sorry, I was thinking in the context of largish international events. Most of those, especially within the olympic classes are limited to two races a day. Except the 49ers which I believe run 4 races.

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#93412 - 01/09/07 09:54 PM Re: 2007 UK travellers trophy [Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
pdwarren Offline
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Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 465
Loc: Oxford, UK
Quote:

No trouble explaining that just the best jump counts there?



Well, I often find myself trying struggling to anticipate the inclusion of discards part-way through a series, but you're absolutely right: this is minor compared to the other issues of sailing coverage. What I saw of the last Olympics was terrible.

Paul

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#93413 - 01/09/07 10:17 PM Re: 2007 UK travellers trophy [Re: pdwarren]
Wouter Offline
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I support discounts and won't support any proposal to get rid of them.

As long as commentators can explain whatever goes on in a live 4 day cricket match coverage then they can explain the simple technique of a discard. How about snooker ?

Actually I believe discards make the racing more exiting. You have to deal a double wammy to your opponent as he can always use his discard to nullify a single defeat first bad result. Afterwise we can also try to stop a boxing match after the first blow lands, correct ?

Wouter
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#93414 - 01/10/07 01:03 PM Re: 2007 UK travellers trophy [Re: pdwarren]
Mark P Offline
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Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 953
Loc: Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Whilst we're getting into the realms of Class and Association Rules I would like to point out that if you intend to travel to Zandvoort be sure to take a saw with you.
At present the length of your spinnaker pole mustn't exceed 3,500mm and project further than 800mm past your bows. Most modern F16's that I have seen flaunt this rule including the Blade. So unless this 800mm measurement rule is retracted then there will be a lot of unhappy sailors cutting their poles and altering their stays to meet the required measurement.
Now that would be a great start to an event.
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