This is easy to answer.

For the sake of the argument I shall not press home the point that the F12 is not specically for kids, but more for any person in the range 40-65 kg. This will also include teenagers and small adults.

But back to just youths.


One-design boats simply aren't fair to youths.

First of all how One-Design are youths anyway ?

If they aren't then why should the boats be ?

Allowing some freedom in adjusting the stiffness of the rig and sail cut will allow some of the inequalities between kids to be corrected. It has been shown many times that the classes with the highest sensitivity the crew weights are the OD classes.

It is in my personal opinion a downright myth that differences in material (under formula rules) are significant when compared to differences in crew skill. It is incredibally easy to show how different designs result in maybe 1%-3% difference in performance while differences in crew skill will easily result in up to 30% difference in performance. And we should not forget that aging boats will sails older then 2 years will also be about 1%-3% slower around the course. In short, if your kids needs to sqeeze out those last 1%-3% of performance then he needs to by new gear every two years anyway, irrespectably whether he is sailing in a formula class or OD class. If that is the case why then accept the downsides of OD classes which are :

-1- expensive replacement parts, sometimes even of mediocre quality.
-2- not allowed to source your own (local) suppliers of parts or make them yourself.
-3- no continued (but slowed down) development, meaning the class will grow outdated in 10 to 15 years time.
-4- less builder support as only one builders needs to do everything. Why do formula classes come up so strong ? Because several builders and suppliers are pushing it in one coordinated effort.
-5- A nightmere scenario when having to check boats for compliance at events. EVERYTHING needs to be checked.
-6- Either the design is very good but impossible to homebuild or it can be easily homebuild but everybody is sailing bathtubs.
-7- OD doesn't allow quick and dirty homebuilds to allow easy and inexpensive acces to sailing.
-8- Problems when US builders are not using the SI unit system. Is 1/16 steel wires the same as 3 mm steel wire ? Ask the Hobie 16's how such a thing lead to a right protest frenzy at one event. At one event in the 80's the crews were checking eachother boats with caliphers trying to spot US stays and protest the owner out of competition. That will be a good behaviour for your kid to learn.

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And since parents will be building the boats (theoretically), it would just become an adult competition to see who can build the fastest boat.

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That may be true to some small extend, but how is this different from your kid chosing the right tennis racket for himself or the right mountain bike or even the right track shoes or skis/snowboards?

Why do we in sailing land think that chosing the right gear for your body setup and preference shouldn't be a normal part of competing ? In by far most sports it is. A top level tennis player will replace his racket 4 times during a game ! If you choose the wrong mountain bike gear setup for the course then you have a problem.

How many one-design cycling events do we have ? If you go and play tennis, do you make it a point to play with the same racket ?


As such having to choose and optimize your gear to suit your body and way of sailing is actually sending the right message to your kids.

And it does benefit youth sailing by being.

-1- cheaper
-2- better available
-3- better developped
-4- better promoted by a bunch of builders (future)


But I think that this has been discussed many times over Mary. You do seem to ask this question a few times a year.

Doesn't the wave class allow different mainsails ?

Wouter

Thanks Wouter,

Something in the back of my mind was saying how could only the hull shape have that great a significance in speed, when weight and size of the sailor will be varying wildly.

Of course us adults can get all wound up in thing such as whether 800, 1200 or 2000 paper is sufficient for our boards, when the nut on the tiller has exponentially more affect on performance.

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Doesn't the wave class allow different mainsails ?

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OF COURSE, we do. The Wave is a one-design boat. So just as with most one-design sailboats, you can get your "motor" cut flat, medium or full to accommodate your crew weight and/or your normal sailing conditions.

I don't see how that has anything to do with modifications in platforms.

You have an opportunity here to create a little, one-design catamaran for kids, that ALSO can have sails cut to suit weight -- just like the Tornado. And the home-builders could make their own sails, too, and try out different fullnesses and shapes within the class sail measurements.

I understand both points of view on this issue, but think that if you are going to get parents and more particularly yatch clubs and kids racing programs involved and "buying" into it, OD is probably an easier sell than a formula approach. The Tornado itself is still a development class, just with tight restrictions as to the development progression. The hull shape is closely defined, but there is around a 5-10mm varience that can be used to alter the shape and performance of the hulls. As to the fact that 99% of the boats raced are from one builder, it is virtually OD. Back to the point though, OD for class development is an easier sell to youth programs.

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The Tornado itself is still a development class, just with tight restrictions as to the development progression. The hull shape is closely defined, but there is around a 5-10mm varience that can be used to alter the shape and performance of the hulls.

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I wonder if that is the variance allowance that was put in the original rules when the requirement was that the catamaran for the Olympics would have to be able to be home-built. Obviously, it would be more difficult to build a boat in your garage to the same tolerances as in Marstrom's factory. So maybe they allowed a little slack in the rules for the people who could not get their plywood bent quite to the right shape?

We need to decide what group we are aiming for. I have heard everything from youths to teenagers and small adults. IT will be hard to market to both of these groups.

As for OD vs Formula, just think about it if it is OD. Some kid buys this boat cheap and has to replace some worn out part. To buy this part new costs 100 dollars while he can go out and find one that works at the local hardware store for 15. Now he can't race, that isn't what we want. I have heard horror stories of people being turned away from Hobie events because of tiny little pieces that didn't match.

Also I think that a glass over ply seems like the best idea and with the strip of aluminum along the bottom of the boat it should be fairly resistant to most things.

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As for OD vs Formula, just think about it if it is OD. Some kid buys this boat cheap and has to replace some worn out part. To buy this part new costs 100 dollars while he can go out and find one that works at the local hardware store for 15. Now he can't race, that isn't what we want. I have heard horror stories of people being turned away from Hobie events because of tiny little pieces that didn't match.

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No, no, no.
Don't confuse one-design with one-design-single-manufacturer. Those are two different things entirely.

Interesting thread but I'm not sure that it will catch on. Kids want bang for bucks, that means hopping onto a fully rigged boat and stepping off at the other end, now you and I think that may or not be the case but from experiance of the kids of today, thats the sad truth. If the set up time takes longer than their Play Station then you are onto a loser. Parents are mainly to blame as we have become so used to a service led society that with our too limited spare time, we want to just get out there ourselves and pay somebody else to teach our kids.

As much as we would like to think that people will spend many hours building a boat I can tell you that only the dedicated parent will make them and he / she will be mainly in it for the thrill of " making the finest and best design" he can, which lends nicely to the freedom of a Formulae class. Kids are going to be only the end user product of a parents desire to build a boat.

As to halting the general decline in sporting activity in our kids then I'm afraid we need to look at our lifestyles first, sort out that and give ourselves more time to paricipate with our kids and I would bet that the kids would then be willingly to go sailing as there are a lot of good times to be had whilst sailing.

I understand that the stuff will add up fast. But if this boat is going to be a boat for the masses then it has to be cheap!
The designers of this boat need to aim very high (low price) that way if you miss the mark the boat is still cheap.
This is what needs to be done if the boat is to be successful.