#96683 - 01/19/07 04:07 PM
Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / Formula
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe
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Please give your opinion on F12 as an Single Manufacturer One Design (SMOD), One-design (OD) or as a Formula setup.
There is no need to hide what my initial opinion about this topic was. That is well known.
But I still feel a need to discuss this issue in more detail with the interested people. I may well change my opinion.
So please give me (us) your opinion about what you think the F12 should be :
-1- A SMOD (Single Manufacturer One Design) with possibly license building by other companies. Like the Laser
-2- A OD (One Design). The design is fixed but with some freedom in certain area's like sails and rudders. Like the Tornado.
-3- A Formula setup like the F18's, the F16's and A's.
Please explain your opinion by discussing the following points :
-1- What is best for the youths and teenagers. (we forget about the adults in this)
-2- What is best to keep costs low
-3- What is best to achieve sufficiently fast and deep market penetration
-4- What is best to achieve sufficiently fairness in racing
-5- What is best to achieve a fast and well behaved boat that can engage the competition (laser, 29-ers, twixxy etc) and come out on top.
-6- What is best to see the F12 suit the largest group of people who have an interest in the F12
-7- What is best to get this F12 of the ground and not have it fade away once the going gets tough (and it will get tough at one point)
-8- Any other reason you feel is important to consider
Wouter
_________________________
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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#96684 - 01/19/07 05:24 PM
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / Formula
[Re: Wouter]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 5558
Loc: Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
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Perhaps some insight could be found in the history of the evolution of the International 14 monohull dinghy class. History can be found at www.international14.org.Here is the introduction to the text of the history, as told by the official historian, who is in England (the second and third paragraphs might be particularly pertinent): Quote:
THE HISTORY OF THE INTERNATIONAL FOURTEEN
To tell the story of the International Fourteen is to recall the early history of small boat racing in this country, for the International Fourteen was originally the National Fourteen and it was but an amalgam of this country's principal 14ft dinghy classes of the early part of the century. Today there is a wide choice of International and National dinghy classes and examples of each can be found in most sailing centres.
Seventy years ago the situation was very different, as parochial forces jealously guarded their local class specially devised to meet local conditions. Argument raged over the merits of various designs and the case for one design or restricted classes. From all the discussion the Fourteens were to gain one of their greatest assets, a liberal set of rules that allowed progressive development and encouraged experiment.
The philosophy that led to the formation of the first National dinghy class holds good today, but on an International plane. For the International Fourteen is one of the few classes that allows nations to design and build craft to their own ideas, and yet still compete on equal terms with dinghies of other nations; the modem Fourteen, as will be seen, draws its inspiration from many parts of the world.
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#96685 - 01/20/07 02:21 AM
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / Formula
[Re: Mary]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 5558
Loc: Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
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Quote:
From all the discussion the Fourteens were to gain one of their greatest assets, a liberal set of rules that allowed progressive development and encouraged experiment.
So that is basically what I think should be the case for the Formula 12 catamaran class (if it becomes a class). Experiment should be encouraged both downward and upward in terms of speed and technology, so that a wide range of youth ages and weights can be accommodated, as well as budgets and building abilities, and to include the existing boats of that size and less.
If someone wants to create a one-design class within the Formula 12 specs, to appeal to the more advanced youth sailors, as well as possibly adults, that would be great, too.
However, I do NOT think it is in the spirit of a Formula 12 class to start out with a boat that is 12'10" long.
And SMOD is not even an option, as far as I am concerned, unless Vanguard is going to build it and promote it and dispense it in containerloads around the world. 
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#96686 - 01/21/07 02:34 AM
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For
[Re: Mary]
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enthusiast
Registered: 08/05/05
Posts: 291
Loc: Irvine, CA
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Quote:
However, I do NOT think it is in the spirit of a Formula 12 class to start out with a boat that is 12'10" long.
Mary,
I would like further explanation on why you feel this way.
Wouter has pretty much said here are the choices based on the underlying mathematics are:
1. a 12 foot boat with a less then desirable sail area, making it a low performance boat, like the ones already available to purchase.
2. a 12 foot boat with the propensity to pitch pole
3. a 1210 that with neither of the two problems.
If he is not making a mistake, I dont see any wiggle room.
I race a C&C 37R. Guess how long it is. Yep, 40 feet. =)
I agree with the rest of what you said.
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#96687 - 01/21/07 07:27 AM
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For
[Re: Matt]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 5558
Loc: Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
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Quote:
Wouter has pretty much said here are the choices based on the underlying mathematics are:
1. a 12 foot boat with a less then desirable sail area, making it a low performance boat, like the ones already available to purchase.
2. a 12 foot boat with the propensity to pitch pole
3. a 1210 that with neither of the two problems.
But those choices are slanted to bring you to the conclusion desired by their author, and they are based upon the premise that what is wanted for the Formula 12 class is a fast, high-performance boat. And also to fit the boat that he had already started designing.
And all the math proves is that Wouter believes the kind of boat he envisions building cannot be done as a 12-footer.
So, in other words, if he can't build his dream boat to fit within a Formula 12 class, he is going to stretch the class to fit a 12'10" boat.
Also, 10 additional inches makes a MUCH greater difference in a small boat like that than it would if you are talking about, say, a Solaris 42 if it is actually 42'10".
If Wouter builds a boat almost 13 feet long and calls it an F12 and expects it to be representative of a Formula 12 class, a Formula 12 class will never come into existence.
If he proceeds with that particular design, he should call it something other than F12 and then make that particular boat a one-design.
Meanwhile, it would be nice if somebody would come up with some box rules for a Formula 12 class and limit it to 12 feet. 
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#96688 - 01/21/07 01:52 PM
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For
[Re: Mary]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 9582
Loc: North-West Europe
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I'm a nefarious little bugger aren't I ? Indeed, my personal preference for the longer hulls comes from the desire to finish up with a good performing boat. I see no point or economical viability for a new class that doesn't convincingly beat the current crop of small cats out there as well as the fastest dinghies (both are pretty much 13 foot and longer as well) With the choice of being lightweigt for reasons of performance and ease of handling c.q. TRULY car toppable the bouyance of the F12 is such that it is disadvantaged in the dive resistance when compared to its heavier competition. By making its hulls shorter then the competition as well we enter into a situation where it becomes very hard to outperform the competition (if not downright impossible) because the mast height and sail area are limited to significantly smaller proportions. The last thing I want to happen is HURT catsailing as a whole by proving to the dinghy sailors out there that small cats simply can not perform. They will errornously inteprete that as being applicable to the whole catamaran scene even if some of them know better. As we all know they are trying desperately to convince themselfs that mono's aren't fundamentally slower then cats or tris. I fully admit to wanting an F12 that is a "a fast, high-performance boat" But "... to fit the boat that he had already started designing". Is not true. We (Phill and I) started out with the 12 long hull, I discovered its drawbacks and proposed to solve them by going a little longer. Quote:
But those choices are slanted to bring you to the conclusion desired by their author, and they are based upon the premise that what is wanted for the Formula 12 class is .
Are your comments "slanted" because you are both an a wave owner and an active wave class volunteer ?
Isn't "slanted" a bit harsh word to use here, makes it sound like I have some evil plan for world domination ?
Quote:
And all the math proves is that Wouter believes the kind of boat he envisions building cannot be done as a 12-footer.
Correct, but the right question here of course is whether the boat I envision is different from what is envisioned by others. Please all raise your hands who in favour of a F12 that is not fast or capable of beating Laser 1's, Hobie Wave's or Dragoons on the water ?
Quote:
So, in other words, if he can't build his dream boat to fit within a Formula 12 class, he is going to stretch the class to fit a 12'10" boat.
Well, I think you guys deserve to hear the truth about this here indeed. If the F12 ruleset finally decided upon doesn't interest me then I may well continue with the design as I envision it and set up a different organisation around it. This design could then indeed be a one-design setup.
I'm really not interested in making a design that ONLY 7-12 year old kids can sail singlehandedly. I don't believe this age group is dependable enough for parents to justify spending a couple of thousant US$ or Euro on. Also these kids grow out of the age (weight) group too quickly and because they are then still too young and small for Hobie 14, Hobie 16's and God forbid F16's they will be forced to go back to dinghies like the laser-1 and 29-er anyway meaning that we'll have lost them again to the dark side. F14 isn't here yet and I don't really think it is going to be. So in effect there is no follow-up to the F12 unless the F12 stretches itself to make the link up with H16's or F16's. Also I think alot of these kids want to sail with a friend instead of solo, putting these crews in the 12-19 years weight range.
Quote:
Also, 10 additional inches makes a MUCH greater difference in a small boat like that than it would if you are talking about, say, a Solaris 42 if it is actually 42'10".
That was a point I made in my own initial posting as well. And this point works both ways. 10 inches less can also make a huge difference in a negative sense.
Quote:
If Wouter builds a boat almost 13 feet long and calls it an F12 and expects it to be representative of a Formula 12 class, a Formula 12 class will never come into existence.
And my plans for world domination will then have SUCCEEDED ! YEAAAH !
Quote:
If he proceeds with that particular design, he should call it something other than F12 and then make that particular boat a one-design.
Because you hold copyright to the name F12 ?
Quote:
Meanwhile, it would be nice if somebody would come up with some box rules for a Formula 12 class and limit it to 12 feet
As long as that somebody isn't Wouter, right ?
Well I'm going to use my old trick again.
If somebody wants to replacement me as the donkey who is pulling this F12 car then by all means do so !
I will step down immediately and hand over the bit to the new person.
Nothing has changed in this respect to 2 weeks ago when I made the exact same offer.
I take note that even the very vocal persons of last time like Pat or Jake didn't respond in anyway to that offer.
Now I really want to have a F12 design that works on all fronts and that will be succesful. I'm not in any way looking forward to the huge amount of work that it will require to get it too succeed like that. Remember I already know what it is like as I've done it one time already with another class. So I'm really not doing this because it is so darn alot of fun to do, I think it is necessary and the right thing to do. So if somebody else wants to do the right thing then I'm happy to throw the burden on his or her shoulders.
But please don not think that this F12 project is rigged to do what I want. I don't have some hidden agenda. I may well change my mind if convincing counter arguments are made. At least you all should give me that much credit.
Wouter
_________________________
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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#96690 - 01/21/07 05:29 PM
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For
[Re: Wouter]
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old hand
Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 1184
Loc: 38.912, -95.37
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My opinion is Quote:
-3- A Formula setup like the F18's, the F16's and A's.
Quote:
-1- What is best for the youths and teenagers. (we forget about the adults in this)
Being a formula allows hull and sail shape to evolve with time and the ability to remain fresh. Certainly limited in OD.
Quote:
-2- What is best to keep costs low
Simplicity, the ability to build sail/hull/tramp yourself.
Quote:
-3- What is best to achieve sufficiently fast and deep market penetration
Dovetails with -2- (from the home-build perspective), the ability to use parts from the shed/kit/garage. Easy to use plans. No major tool expenditure. An active build group to answer questions. An association to offer F12 specific parts? A complete kit?
Quote:
-7- What is best to get this F12 of the ground and not have it fade away once the going gets tough (and it will get tough at one point)
At least one working prototype, something to visually wrap hands around, to launch it off. Testing of windsurf rigs to create alternative, or a broader base of possible sails to keep it going. Continued feed back from prototype boats.
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John H16, H14
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#96691 - 01/21/07 07:28 PM
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For
[Re: _flatlander_]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 5558
Loc: Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
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John,
I agree with almost everything you are saying.
The problem is that you seem to be talking about a Formula 12 class, and Wouter is talking about the boat he has designed or is designing that is 12'10" long. I just can't see any connection between the two.
It all goes back to what the goal and purpose is for a Formula 12 class. But that discussion was kind of cut off.
I think there is definitely room for a Formula 12 class for the younger kids. I don't see it for the older, more experienced kids, because they are usually ready for all the 15- and 16-footers already being used extensively for youth training, especially in Europe.
But Wouter's boat, as he has said, is not for the younger sailors. So if he does his thing with this fast, longer boat, it still does not address the problem of having a Formula 12 Class for young sailors.
Right now a catamaran for the younger sailors, ages 8-13, is really the only missing link, as far as introduction to catamarans.
Speed and performance are certanly not factors -- except for the boat having good handling characteristics for tacking, jibing, and tracking well but with some weather helm.
I am excited about Phill's design, because it sounds like something that even I could build for my grandchildren. And I need it very soon. For some reason, the kids just keep getting older every year!
(My apologies for Wouter for again expressing my opinion.)
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#96692 - 01/21/07 10:04 PM
Re: Please give your opinion on ... SMOD/ OD / For
[Re: Mary]
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addict
Registered: 12/25/05
Posts: 433
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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At least Mary has an opinion. I am a notorious fence sitter and bend easily before the prairie breezes. My grandson is only 4 months old, so I can stay on my fence for a few more years. I wish I could help out, but always seem to find myself agreeing with the last argument made.
_________________________
 F16 Blade 716
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