Mary,

We're going way back here, but it seems like there was a consensus (or maybe just my perception) that most people would shy away from spending $3K in a boat for a 7 to 13 year old to knock around on.

Also consider the age of 11, 12 or 13 as an age when they may formulate ideas of what they really want to do, or enjoy doing. (I think my pointing out the millenial generation is now between the ages of 7 and 25 may have thrown some people on a target age) I feel optimizing for a 12 to 18 range is legitimate. As you say a H14/H16 may be sailed at this age but what about the logistics and complexity. And in this scenario you're probably talking about a family of cat sailors who may be more apt to throw a 60kg boat on top of the adult cat (as opposed to a Bravo or Wave).

The potential there is for a new sailors as well, up through young adults of driving age. What's to prevent granddaughter from hauling her boat off to college?

Quote:

---

Speed and performance are certanly not factors -- except for the boat having good handling characteristics for tacking, jibing, and tracking well but with some weather helm.

---

I'm learning more as I hang around, but I was certainly convinced that a hull that looked fast and was light (esp. lighter than the roto- boats) must inherently BE fast. If it's not significantly faster than a Wave what purpose does it fill? Other than being easier to move around and rig?

Quote:

---

We're going way back here, but it seems like there was a consensus (or maybe just my perception) that most people would shy away from spending $3K in a boat for a 7 to 13 year old to knock around on.

---

But isn't that $3,000 for a boat based upon the kind of boat Wouter is proposing? NOT for a much simpler boat that kids CAN knock about on?

Quote:

---

If it's not significantly faster than a Wave what purpose does it fill? Other than being easier to move around and rig?

---

So here we go again, round and round, about the purpose of a Formula 12 class.

I said I think there is room for a Formula 12 class, but that is for the people who want their kids to start on catamarans.

I PERSONALLY don't think there is a need for it, because, as I have said many times before, I think all kids should be started out in monohull dinghies. (Unfortunately, that does not seem to be a popular viewpoint among catamaran sailors.)

Wouter's boat is already almost 13 feet long. If it is as fast as he thinks it will be, why not make it part of the Formula 14 class, which already seems to exist.

-1- What is best for the youths and teenagers? (We forget about the adults in this)

Something with enough performance to draw them from other small sailboat classes, and from other sports that are competing for their time and money.

-2- What is best to keep costs

Keep it open formula where sailor can build their boat with what is available, both financial and materials wise.

-3- What is best to achieve sufficiently fast and deep market penetration

Creative marketing, doesn’t matter how good the boat is if you can’t convince the target market that it wants an F 12, it needs an F 12, it has to have an F 12 .

-4- What is best to achieve sufficiently fairness in racing

Do the racing thing, but also have a program for those that would love to go out on the water and have fun without competing as an option. Not every kid wants to race…if it’s either a race or nothing scenario, some kids will just say forget it and go back to their playstation. Is this about getting kids into sailing? Or just racing? Or both?

-5- What is best to achieve a fast and well behaved boat that can engage the competition (laser, 29-ers, twixxy etc) and come out on top.

Go to the 12’-10” length as proposed, no sense in creating a class that offers a level of performance lower than what’s all ready out there. We want to build a better mouse trap…not one an inferior one… If these same kids that are being targeted don’t want to sail a Hobie Wave because of it’s perceived lack of performance, what chance does a boat of less performance have?

-6- What is best to see the F12 suit the largest group of people who have an interest in the F12

Again go to the 12’-10” length so it is a boat that can handle a greater spread of crew weight. Make it so a small child, a teenager, or small adult can use by starting out with a performance hull that can be tuned up or down with the size and style of the rig so as to accommodate all three groups. Any parent knows that children get all fired up about something, the parents go out and buy all the necessary equipment and then the child looses interest…If it could be also used by an adult, a parent might say to themselves, well if junior looses interest after we pour all this money and time into building this boat at least the wife or I can sail it ourself. The wider the weight capabilities, the larger the market…the more that are made, the more used ones become available on the market for other kids to get involved...Also... have you looked at the size of some of the middle/High school kids these days? They are not all the model of fitness…don't make it so the "big for their age" and "over weight" kids are effectively out of luck.

-7- What is best to get this F12 of the ground and not have it fade away once the going gets tough (and it will get tough at one point)

Keep the rules open as to fuel development within the class so it keeps fresh and the there is always a next level to aspire to… don’t make a class where the boat is so small that it is outgrown in a couple years…the 420 is sailed all the way to college age if I am not mistaken. I am sick of the tired argument "that open rules killed the C class and 18 square"


-8- Any other reason you feel is important to consider

What is the magic about a 12’-0” hull length? The FJ –s 13’-3”, the 420 is 13’-9”, The Laser is 13’-10”, and the Sunfish is 13’-9”. These are all boats youth sail…

At 12’-10”... better performance…can be home built for less money.. handle the weight of an adult…it would be in direct competition with ...

Regards,
Bob

Perhaps the Formula 12 class could have two divisions -- a division for 12-foot, entry-level, small-kid boats; and a high-performance division that allows boats up to 12'10".
Like, Formula 12 and Formula 12X.

That would solve all these problems about who wants what from the Formula 12 class.

Mary,

Can you please elaborate why you think a 12'0" hull is more suited to a young kid then a 12'10" hull when both are fitted with the same rig and are practically identical in overall weight ?

Why do you think a young kid can't sail the 12'10" properly if it can sail the 12'0" ?

Wouter

What's to elaborate? Some people want a low-performance, fun boat for their kids to introduce them to catamarans. Other people want a high-performance boat that will beat the socks off all the "competition."

Formula 12 and Formula 12X seems like the answer. It's sort of like trying to figure out what kind of pogo stick to get when you have various ages and weights of kids involved.

How about :

a low-performance, fun boat for their kids to introduce them to catamarans => Hobie Catsy

http://www.hobie-cat.net/site_gb/?produits,hobie_catsy

And it is low-performance : Texel rating of 165 where the F18's have 101 and the Hobie 16 have 117. That is when rigged with a jib and the larger mainsail of the two. The Hobie wave (only mainsail is 145






high-performance boat that will beat the socks off all the "competition => Formula 12



Would a seperation of youth between these two boats satisfy you ?

Wouter

Im with Mary on this, I have said it before but I think there is too much emphasis on performance, I don't think racing is something that kids want to do.

The main advantage of a cat for children is stability not performance.

I would rather go for Darryls F14 than Wouters F12/F13. I am interstested to see Phils concept.

The Catsy is nice but cannot really be homebuilt plus its an F11

Gareth

Seems like Hobie is already building four cats in the range we are talking about the Castsy @ 3.1 mtr., the Advance @ 3.6 mtr., the bravo @ 3.66 mtrs, the Teddy @ 3.91 mtr. Five if you count the Wave at just outside our range @ 3.98 mtr.

With all these boats offered you would think the void would be filled but obviously its not...I would venture to say these boats are aimed at resort rentals as much as individual boat owners.

Again, obviously none of these boats have the "magic" necessary to entice new kids in the numbers everyone seems to think are possible.

As adults we may look at these boats and think if we had one 25 years ago as a pre-teen we would have thought they were really cool...to youth of today they probably look like overgrown bath tub toys. Today’s youth have grown up with extreme sports as the norm...things that were unheard of 10-15 years ago. So it doesn't surprise me at all when they don't get all excited about a lack luster product that was designed to be idiot proof in a rental fleet scenario.

They are buying products like the "WE" and Apple "I pods" ...not boats that look like they were designed and built by kiddy toy Manufacturer Fisher-Price ...

Regards,
Bob