John you raise a good point…just because the Maximum Length is set at 12’-10” wouldn’t have stopped anyone from building a boat 12’-0” long if that fit their personal goals.

I totally fail to understand why this is such a point of contention. Bill Roberts tried to tell us for years that you design a boat based on the numbers…not some arbitrary preconceived idea…apparently he got tired of beating his head against the wall since I haven’t seen him post in quite some time.

We had a chance to birth a new class that everyone said they wanted but seem we have self-destructed over the fact that an engineer ran the calculations and the numbers said that a much more efficient and useful design could be constructed if lengthened by just 10 inches … while keeping all the important primary objectives of cost, ease of construction, and light weight. It amazes me how many people just flatly ignore that the laws of physics exist…


Regards,
Bob

The reason it is a point of contention is that there are two completely different philosophies about what is needed for the youth sailors in the age range from 8-14.

That is why it makes sense to have two divisions within the Formula 12 class.

There is no reason for the class to self-destruct before it begns. And there is no reason for the F12 high-performance boat that Wouter is proposing to self-destruct. Why can't everybody compromise and allow the two divisions within the class (if there is a class), so everybody will be happy?

The cynical answer is that it's not a god class unless everybody are reasonably _un_happy about the rules. If everybody is happy, it will fizzle and die. (I'll not use any "smileys", as you dont trust them anyway)

Splitting a class from the outset is a poor idea in my opinion. No kid would want to sail the "un(der)powered" version once they figured out that it gave more status to sail the "(over)powered" version. At least that is my experience.


Bob, the "Formula 12" class is not dead. It just lies dormant until some designs are buildt. The idea (and the demand) is there, so just give it some time. If the class is not up and going in six years (when our youngest become 8), I'll build three boats myself and donate to the club if I can entice her to start sailing. But I would definatly build sails from dacron and put a mast float on so the kids could play with the things. I would also homebuild rudders/rudderstocks/sails and use cheap materials so it would not cost much..
The "Formula 12" class just need some boats to hit the water, but most of the usual suspects for homebuilding/prototyping are busy with other projects.

All this started in the extremely popular "Youth Recreation Trend" thread on the Open Forum. It was really very exciting, because people were talking about a very simple, inexpensive, lightweight, cartoppable boat, that anybody can build in their garage, to introduce young children (ages 7-12) to catamarans.

And then the idea of a Formula 12 class came up. I assumed this meant the boats in that class would be 12 feet or less.

And then the discussion turned to a design for a specific boat that would be called an F12.

And the next thing you know, it turned out that the specific boat was actually going to be almost 13 feet long and will be as fast as Hobie 16's. And it is going to cost supposedly $3,000 even if you build it yourself? Whoa!

Am I the only one who sees something wrong with this picture?

Doesn't this totally defeat the purpose of starting a Formula 12 class, which was to keep the designs small and simple and light and home-buildable and inexpensive and relatively SLOW for the benefit of kids who have never even been on a sailboat before? And also inspire people to design and build their own boats within the Formula 12 parameters, if they ever happen?

Isn't the Formula 12 for kids supposed to be an alternative to the Optimist Dinghy? THAT is the competition (not the Hobie 16). And, obviously, any cat, no matter how primitive, is going to be faster and more fun than the Opti.

I am retracting my suggestion about a separate division for boats longer than 12 feet. Forget it. What was I thinking?? If there is going to be a Formula 12 class, it should be for boats at maximum 12 feet long, period.

It is pretty obvious, from the existing 12-footers in Australia, that it is possible to build good-performing boats within that length. If somebody wants to build a longer boat that is a lot faster, fine, but it should not be a Formula 12. And a Formula 12 Class should not be formed at all unless it has an upper parameter of 12-feet for length.

This is just my own opinion, of course.
P.S. If you want to review the Youth Receation Trend thread on the Open Forum, I have brought it back up to the top.

Mary,

does it matter so much wether the boat is 12feet or 12feet 10 inches when few of the other formula classes adhere to the same logic? For me it dont matter much, but if it will be a better boat with 12'10", then it sounds logical to choose the longer one.

What matters for me is the price of participating (building), handling (on/off cars, rigging AND sailing) and safety.

From what I have seen of the discussion, it should be possible to build such a boat for a lot less than US$3000 if you dont buy professionally made sails, trampolines and rudders. Homebuild might be almost as good (or better in some cases) and a lot cheaper. The loads on this boat is probably small enough to allow for ply/glass rudder construction.

I dont think further discussion will bring further positive elements forth. It's time to finish some designs and build them. But the usual ply "torturers" are busy with other projects. Perhaps Tad (Maughan) can be enticed to produce a prototype as he expressed interest. Or perhaps you could consider trying your hand with some boatbuilding? Building tramps and a sail would be a good project to test your new sewing machine. Stitch and glue building is fast and something everybody can do with reasonable results.

It does not matter what length of boat anybody designs and builds. All I am saying is that it does not make sense to create a Formula 12 class if you are not going to limit it to boats that are 12 feet or less.

Maybe a Formula 12 class is not needed at all. And that is probably the case.

I just don't want to see somebody create one that is for boats up to 13 feet long. That is like saying that for a Haiku poem it is okay to have 10 syllables in the second line.

What does the name of the beast matter? Getting some of these boats on the water is the important point at this stage.
Would you build one of these (at 12 feet) if you got a set of plans and a building description? I will, but not yet, as there is an F-16 brewing there..

To be a bit on-topic. I definately think it should be a formula class, not OD or SMOD. That way homebuilding and affordability will be a possibility wherever the 'class' might decide to go.

Quote:

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What does the name of the beast matter? Getting some of these boats on the water is the important point at this stage.
Would you build one of these (at 12 feet) if you got a set of plans and a building description? I will, but not yet, as there is an F-16 brewing there..

To be a bit on-topic. I definately think it should be a formula class, not OD or SMOD. That way homebuilding and affordability will be a possibility wherever the 'class' might decide to go.

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Exactly! But only if it is a 12-foot formula class. The smaller the boat, the greater the differences are with only small increments in length.

12'10" is a HUGE difference from 12'. No comparison in terms of performance and speed.

And, yes, I WILL try to build a boat if Phill is right about his simpler design, He said,

Quote:

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The first shape is aimed at bringing people into the sport and if push comes to shove could be built with a knife, screw driver, saw, plane, hammer and tape measure.
The magic in this is not in the refined hull shape but the method of construction, time involved and cost.
I think this boat will still give the newcomers what they need to get hooked.

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THIS idea is exciting, at least to me.

Hey, I have an idea. For the F12 Class I have this great design that can be home built and the first design was conceived in 1968.
It can be made of plywood at home. You can make your own sails and all.
And it is only 20 Ft long -- The Tornado. Heck it is only 8 ft longer than the 12' limit, but is is faster and can beat a Hobie 16.
Kids will love it!

No untrustworthy Graemlins from me!
Rick