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Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: davidtilley] #102184
03/31/07 05:41 PM
03/31/07 05:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
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Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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Quote
With you 100%
Do not understand the F18: Why build a boat supposedly economy minded to sail predominantly windward-leward races with a jib (and spin)?
And I dont think it is p c to say it is to give the wife something to do upwind.
If it is to be user friendly,and equality not speed is the goal, I for one think centerboards (prindle 19 and 18-2) or keels are a better deal. Lots of people struggle with Daggerboards.
Explain the attraction to me. What is better about a F18 that made them sell like supposed hotcakes, while the P19MX dissapeared, and no one bought the Bim HT (AS A BOAT OR CLASS)?


By the fact that you have put (spin?) with a question mark, you obviously know little about the class. Do yourself a favor and sail one for a few hours.

Tiger Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: C2 Mike] #102185
03/31/07 05:46 PM
03/31/07 05:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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Quote
With you 100%
Do not understand the F18: Why build a boat supposedly economy minded to sail predominantly windward-leward races with a jib (and spin)?
And I dont think it is p c to say it is to give the wife something to do upwind.
If it is to be user friendly,and equality not speed is the goal, I for one think centerboards (prindle 19 and 18-2) or keels are a better deal. Lots of people struggle with Daggerboards.
Explain the attraction to me. What is better about a F18 that made them sell like supposed hotcakes, while the P19MX dissapeared, and no one bought the Bim HT (AS A BOAT OR CLASS)?


By the fact that you have put (spin?) with a question mark, you obviously know little about the class. Do yourself a favor and sail one for a few hours.

Tiger Mike


By the fact that you put (spin?) (Tiger Mike), instead of (spin)?, I can tell that you know very little about thoroughly reading. Do yourself a favor and slow down before making a comment.
Think about it....

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


Trey
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: bvining] #102186
03/31/07 05:50 PM
03/31/07 05:50 PM
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By the way, there's not reason we can get all the HT owners together do some racing.

PTP why not get some races organized?


We definately need to do that. I have had a great time sailing boat on boat with Murray.
Went out today, probably over 20 with at least gusts to 25. Awesome, and nothing broke. Did go over once, driver error. Jibed and rounded up too much and by the time I tried to correct.. too late. Gotta think about getting those risers... the chop does kill you.. especially with a 230lb guy on the wire behind you while driving <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The boat feels SOOOO much more stable than the 6.0 ever did in that type of wind. It is obviously way lighter and so much more responsive. Guess I need to get on a F18 to compare.

BTW, with Me, Murray, Edderer, Guthrie (selling his though), wouldn't this be the best area to get them all together <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by PTP; 03/31/07 05:51 PM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102187
03/31/07 05:54 PM
03/31/07 05:54 PM
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Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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Quote

Quote

The very fact that HT didn't take off world wide is a strong indication that having the lightest class weight is not the most important thing when building a successful class.



I for one do not think the 18HT experience says anything about how weight is valued by owners and customers.

First of all, the 18HT's were the third lightest doublehanded sailboats on the USA market when they were launched there. The 3rd and 2nd lightest doublehanders are gone and lightest design is still is still here and growing.

Secondly, the 18HT failed for other reasons that had nothing to do with it being lightish at 135 kg. I personally think it failed for much the same reasons the Taipan 5.7 failed, its predeccesor on the US market. Combined with some specific issues related to the only HT make to ever reach the US market.

Thirdly, I know from a fact that being light weight is important enough to be a critical issue in the class grow of the F16's. If we had been 150 kg or over then we would never had gotten were we are now.

The F18 class succes wasn't hampered by it being 180 kg but that weight certainly wasn't the reason why the F18 class became succesful. Meaning when it had been 150 kg its would still have been a succes maybe even more easily so.

Wouter


You drew entirely the wrong conclusion from my statement. Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I mean for a class to succeed (or fail), boat weight (high or low)is relatively low importance compared to other characteristics and circumstances.

I think weight is only a small part of the success you are having with the F16. The overall package of flexibility and overall performance (which light weight contributes to) decide weather it will succeed or not.

Tiger Mike

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102188
03/31/07 06:45 PM
03/31/07 06:45 PM
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Atlanta
bvining Offline
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BTW, with Me, Murray, Edderer, Guthrie (selling his though), wouldn't this be the best area to get them all together


It would be the best area in Dec, Jan, Feb and March.

The rest of the year its pretty good up here and we are getting to that time of the year.

Btw, one of my personal best days ever was crewing for Mark Murray on his HT, summer day sailing of Newport in 8-10 ft hurricane swell rollers on the outside, on the way back to Sail Newport we went blasting thru a crowd of boats rafted up outside Fort Adams during the Newport Jazz fest with the spin up, the looks we got were priceless.

Bill

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: C2 Mike] #102189
04/01/07 03:40 AM
04/01/07 03:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Mike,

Quote

You drew entirely the wrong conclusion from my statement.


I don't think I did.


Quote

boat weight (high or low)is relatively low importance compared to other characteristics and circumstances


My line of reasoning is that without the low weight the F16 class (and possibly other classes as well) can achieve the other characteristics that you refer too. Even if people may not name lightweight as the most important point it still is critical in the flexibility of the craft and the way it feels and handles 150 kg crew weights.

This may well not hold for all classes (F18's) but for other classes it does. It all dependents on what the class targets as their projected owners.

I also feel that 18HT went after the wrong kind of crowd and that the class grew much too dependent on a single person. Think class trailer etc.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/01/07 03:41 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102190
04/01/07 07:05 AM
04/01/07 07:05 AM
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Michigan
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Don't you think that you would be more likely to go sailing (recreational, training, afternoon with a couple hours to burn and the wind is nice) if you didn't have to deal with a 400lb boat? Might keep more consistent crew too if they didn't have to deal with a heavy boat all the time too.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: C2 Mike] #102191
04/01/07 07:43 AM
04/01/07 07:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote


You drew entirely the wrong conclusion from my statement. Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I mean for a class to succeed (or fail), boat weight (high or low)is relatively low importance compared to other characteristics and circumstances.


I agree with that entirely. I find it interesting that this thread turned from an attack on heavy boats to the defense of the 18HT. I don't think there's anything wrong with the 18HT - it's just a boat designed for relatively smooth water sailing than, say, a Nacra 20.


Jake Kohl
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Jake] #102192
04/01/07 07:47 AM
04/01/07 07:47 AM
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Quote


You drew entirely the wrong conclusion from my statement. Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I mean for a class to succeed (or fail), boat weight (high or low)is relatively low importance compared to other characteristics and circumstances.


I agree with that entirely. I find it interesting that this thread turned from an attack on heavy boats to the defense of the 18HT. I don't think there's anything wrong with the 18HT - it's just a boat designed for relatively smooth water sailing than, say, a Nacra 20.


Just when stupid comments like "RIP THEIR TRANSOMS OUT" come up I get defensive because people remember those type of statements but seem to forget all the other failures of all sorts of other boats. People were looking for a problem with the HT and that satisfied them despite the evidence against other boats. It gets perpetuated even though it happened once. I bet you could find a N20 that has had that happen, but no one ever mentions it. I am not trying to malign N20s, F18s or whatever, just trying to make a point that it is unfair to make that comment about the HT.

The question still stands though- why are manufacturers making such heavy boats?

Last edited by PTP; 04/01/07 07:50 AM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102193
04/01/07 07:57 AM
04/01/07 07:57 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Several years ago, the Performance North Americans held on Tybee Island had some short steep 3 and 4' seas with some strong wind. I was amazed watching the daggerboard on my new F18 come clear of the water and crash sideways back into the water as we would leap from wave to trough again and again. Later one of those evenings I ran into Jack Young and asked him how they go about designing a boat that doesn't break in those conditions? His reply was something along the lines of; you do what you think, and add some more where it breaks - it takes time and experience.

400lbs leaves a large margin of error for this kind of development. Yes, you can build a lighter boat but you will have more teething problems as you work though the "add more where it breaks".


Jake Kohl
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Jake] #102194
04/01/07 08:08 AM
04/01/07 08:08 AM
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all of this being said, I did reinforce my transoms a little. I had an early pre-worrell version (they did reinforce some areas for the worrell). It was harder to do than I thought so who knows if it actually added any strength, but I also modified the rudders into a better kick up mechanism.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102195
04/01/07 08:12 AM
04/01/07 08:12 AM
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My Nacra F17 weighs in around 320lbs. Pretty heavy for a singlehander. But, it is bulletproof . If you go lighter, you can't touch the beach, sit on it, or survive a collision on the water. That's just the way it is in the F17 class. Heavier is easier to manufacture. Lighter also means tighter tolerances, exotic materials, and higher costs; A cats. So, it's not a bad thing if it's affordable. Back in the day when the Nacra 6.0 and Hobie 20 were the thing, we couldn't complain because of class rules and factories dictating the weight of the boats. We all sailed the same thing and that was the pure fun of it! Yes, F18 could be lighter but their class rules dictate a high weight. No big deal. Why don't you buy a F18 and sail in one of the largest growing classes in NA? Or, just get into the largest growing class at this time: "A".

Enjoy!

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
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Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Jake] #102196
04/01/07 11:38 AM
04/01/07 11:38 AM
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Wouter Offline
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What a load of crock !

I'm refering to these statements :

Quote

400lbs leaves a large margin of error for this kind of development. Yes, you can build a lighter boat but you will have more teething problems as you work though the "add more where it breaks".


Quote

My Nacra F17 weighs in around 320lbs. Pretty heavy for a singlehander. But, it is bulletproof . If you go lighter, you can't touch the beach, sit on it, or survive a collision on the water. That's just the way it is in the F17 class.



Bob, my 1974 Prindle 16 was 20 lbs lighter then your 320 lbs Inter-17 and it was a doublehander with more sailarea as well. That boat is still sailing now, over 30 years after its resin was poured.

Jake, all of a certain new F18 model all the daggerboards that were shipped to EU in the spring of 2006 broke, that was AFTER the daggerboards had become shorter and wider then the previous model of the same company. A befriended crew owning this model for about 1 week broke BOTH daggerboards at the same time and was drifting about pretty helplessly.

The most pronounced breakage of a Vectorworks Marine F16 was single daggerboard that split while sailing and a single seam that started to crack up; both were the result of insuffient wetting out of the laminate. In both cases the crews finished the (distance) race. Note how VWM is totally new to producing these sports cats while Hobie and Nacra has decades of experience and that VWM is no producing 240 lbs dependable boats while other are producing 320 and 400 lbs barges that break down significantly more often.

Now this is not intended as a pissing contest between VWM and Nacra/Hobie. This counterargument is whole intended to show that putting more weight into a design is alot less important then actually pouring some design expertise into it. How else can a newby like VWM produce a much more challenging design with quite a convincing dependability record ? And how else it is possible that my 1974 Prindle was lighter then all newer designs (like nacra 5.0 and nacra 500) that came after it ?

Being "heavy", no matter what the spin is from the company reps, is nothing more then an economically inspired choice !

And Bob, your boat isn't bullet proof by a long shot. I dare say that I can even fire my 4.5 mm (177) caliber pump action air rifle at it and puncture its hull. And I've been running up my homebuild TIMBER F16 up the beach AT SPEED for 3 years now because of the surf we often get around here. My fellow Blade F16 owners at my club do the same with their glass VWM Blade F16's. And typically every race day we sit on the hulls or bows of our boats. I think all of us have walked over our bow to the tip of the spi pole to correct a rigging mistake we made at one time. You know the one where you mistakenly wrap the tack line around the pole ones before tying it to the spi itself.

You guys are just speaking nonsense. You are both knowlegdable people but on this topic you two are just waaaaay of base.

And I'm just laughing my socks of when a carbon masted I-17 is 320 lbs while my homebuild F16 with an alu mast, more sailarea and for crying out loud even a BRIDLED jib comes in at 240 lbs and is surviving the bloody North Sea without any problems. We get wind, chop and washboard like surf conditions you guys simply won't believe. Think Texel video 2005.

And in defense of the 18HT's, at 135 kg and carbon mast without a bridled forestay these design have absolutely no reason to be fragile. If they are as a class and it is not proven that they are then it is because the individual designers made the wrong construction choices.


Quote

Or, just get into the largest growing class at this time: "A".



Bob, how do you square this with you earlier statement ? The A's are the lightest singlehanders around. 320 - 165 = 155 lbs lighter then your I-17. Going on your earlier statement, one would think that these boats break when only looking it them. Which of course is totally not the case.


Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/01/07 11:42 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102197
04/01/07 01:03 PM
04/01/07 01:03 PM
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Wouter:

If you're going to tout VWM, you need to point out that Matt is in the shop most of the time. To my mind a "working" boss gives higher quality and lower price than a "suit" that never gets his hands dirty.

I'm certain this is true in the housing industry, why wouldn't it be the same with boats?

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: fin.] #102198
04/01/07 01:53 PM
04/01/07 01:53 PM
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Adding something here- you know the SL16 weighs 335 lbs!!! Blade F16 240. Now explain that to me. New boat.. lazy manufacturer? I think the prices are probably comparable.. so whats up?

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: fin.] #102199
04/01/07 01:53 PM
04/01/07 01:53 PM
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Bob_Curry Offline
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Darn Wout, you are a real PIA.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Bob_Curry] #102200
04/01/07 04:23 PM
04/01/07 04:23 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Judging by the responses, I feel I should once again applaud some of the features of this forum.

Quote
*** You are ignoring this user ***


Jake Kohl
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: fin.] #102201
04/01/07 06:57 PM
04/01/07 06:57 PM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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VWM was just one example of the many I could have chosen.

AHPC build over 320 Taipan 4.9's weighting in at 102 (without spi gear) and championship are still being won by 10-15 year old boats. No problems beaching these or sitting on them.

Prindle 16's have been produced at less weight then these so called modern boats for about 30 years (actually used that as an example).

Of course there are reasons why these builders could where others couldn't. Yes indeed, having the boss walking on the production floor does motivate workers into making better quality products. That is not the thing that is amazing.

The truly amazing thing in this thread is that despite considerable evidence to the contrary, some people still rationalize their boats obesity as having something to do with quality or dependability.

Now I'm not against the F18 being 180 kg or anything, I'm only against guys like Bob and Jake who make it appear that lighter boats are somehow "less" because they are not 180 kg's.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Bob_Curry] #102202
04/01/07 07:02 PM
04/01/07 07:02 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

Darn Wout, you are a real PIA.



Yep, but that is still a long way off being wrong !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Bob_Curry] #102203
04/01/07 08:17 PM
04/01/07 08:17 PM
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Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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My Nacra F17 weighs in around 320lbs. Pretty heavy for a singlehander. But, it is bulletproof . If you go lighter, you can't touch the beach, sit on it, or survive a collision on the water. That's just the way it is in the F17 class. Heavier is easier to manufacture. Lighter also means tighter tolerances, exotic materials, and higher costs; A cats.


That's a very heavy boat when you consider the exotic materials used like carbon mast for example.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
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