Are there Sponsered pros at Nationals in MI????

Isnt this against the rules? DOes anyone care?

Seems it just makes it harder for an average guy to make it in cat racing.

Being a "professional" sailor (getting paid by somebody or having a sponsor or working in a sailing-related business) does not somehow make someone a better sailor than an "amateur" sailor, any more than a rich sailor is a better sailor than a poor sailor. You usually don't become a good sailor just by virtue of being "professional." It's the other way around, usually you become a professional sailor because you are a good sailor. The best sailor will win the races, whether "professional" or not. I think it is just a psychologically intimidating label.

Saying you don't want to race against "professionals" is saying you don't want to race against the best. Racing against the best is what raises the bar for all of us and makes us better sailors. If you are a good enough salesman to get sponsorship for yourself, you, too, could be a "professional." Personally, I think all racing sailors should use their sails as billboards and get sponsors, whether large or small. But it won't make you a better sailor. You have to do that for yourself, and the best way to do that is by racing against the best.

Mary,



I would like to echo your comments and also add that racing, at any level, makes one a better sailor. When you get to race against the best, though, you really accelerates the learning.



The difficulty for many of us, however, is entering into a race when you know that the top sailors are on the billing. Most of us struggle with insecurities of one type or another. When going up against the "best", it requires us to let go of a fair amount of ego and not worry about a poor showing or making a few newbie mistakes. (I know that it has been a big issue for me, especially as one who got turned on to sailing at such an "old" age.)



My advice: Get out there and sail with the best if you have a chance. Professional or amatuer. Everyone's got something to contribute.

You are right, "professional" does not mean better, but it does mean that particular sailor has the resources to improve at a much quicker pace than the average Joe.



If my crew ends up through my main in a nasty capsize during a regatta, I am finished for the weekend. I may be a better sailor, but if I can't finish the reagatta, where does that leave me? DFL...



Shannon Galway

P19MX

As I implied before, money is definitely a factor. If somebody has enough money to have access to spare equipment so they can get back into the regatta after they break something, that gives them an advantage. But it is the same advantage that wealthy amateur sailors have. So "Professional" really has nothing to do with it. Should some people be excluded from racing just because they have the money to have extra boat parts (or even boats) with them? Should we divide regattas into the races for us poor people and races for the rich people and the "professionals"? Interesting question.

I think that one of the great things about the sport of sailng is that we can (usually) turn up and race with the best in National, Regional and World Championship events. Sailing with pros is a great oppertunity to get a measure of how we're doing relative to the fastest our chosen class can be sailed - the goal being to close the gap as much as possible over time.



Somebody told me a story once about a GP14 sailor who always won the club races and went to the nationals with an extremely **** attitude - and was in the bottom half of the fleet... it's only when you race agaist the best that you really know how good (or not) you are...



I wish pros sailed in every race I entered...!



Regards,

Colin J

www.sailwave.com

It would also be interesting to define a Pro.

For example, I wrote my first book in 1974. While I made a paltry sum for the work, I guess I was paid. At the time I was a winning sailor most of the time before I wrote the book. So, once I wrote the book, would that make me a professional?

How about dealers? They are all making money in the sailing business. Does that make them professionals?

I really don't think those things make you a professional sailor.

Another interesting tidbit. Most of us that are barely keeping our heads above water that opted to work in the sailing business usually have less time to spend on the water to practice. That is because there is so little money in the sailing industry to be made, that you have to work twice as hard as normal folks do to eke out a living.

Anyway, these are some things to ponder.

Thanks,

Rick

Hi, Mary,



Of course you know that many races are organized with strictures to focus the competition on one or another aspect of sailing, and to exclude advantages like age, gender, weight, boat modification etc.



Meanwhile, many races are "wide open" and encourage innovation, preparation, conditioning, and so on.



Each broad category of structure offers different challenges, with concommitant rewards inherent in those challenges, for those who rise to meet them.



Some purists like the idea expressed by Rick's discussions of Wave contests. He seems to be aiming for as little variation as possible in the way of boat, campaign etc. so as to come as close as possible to a "mano a mano" "Who's the better sailor, period." kind of contest. That goal, (if I'm understanding Rick correctly...), or that kind of valuation of the contest, wouldn't be very compatible with allowing some guys to have more or less resources on the beach than other guys, or more practice time since his expenses are paid... since that moves the competition into "Who's the better sailor *AND* campaigner".



I'm not saying one's wrong and one's right, just that they're different, that's all.



Personally, I'm very excited to git my whuppin' from the baddest dudes on Waves; but I would mildly prefer if we all had identical physical resources on the beach - just my .02.



So it may not be racing against the "pro's" that's being objected to by the poster, but the advantages those pro's obtain in equipment.



Again, personally, I'm going to learn from them in any boat. And if the wind-gods smile, who knows......

I'm sorry,but I have never heard of any races that restrict participation based on age or gender. I'm female and old, and I have never heard of a race that would exclude me. That's the best thing about sailboat racing, that you can do it until you are ancient and it doesn't matter whether you are male or female, 13 years old or 90 years old.

And as far as people having extra "resources" because of being "professional" or "sponsored," how far do we go with that? If normal, amateur people have extra daggerboards and rudders and rigging, and an extra sail, in their boat box -- as many people do -- should they not be allowed to use them unless everybody at the regatta has the same stuff? Gimme a break!

Okay, I am just editing this to say that numerous times throughout our sailing life, we have either been in the borrowing end or the lending end of spare parts for other sailors in need, so that they can continue racing. It is wonderful that people DO carry spare parts and make them available to their competitors, as well as having them available for themselves.

Right on, Colin.



I had a sponsor for my second Wave Nationals down at Rick's Place - they bought me a new boat, a killer new sail with cool graphics, and gave me some clothes. I felt like the king of the world. I *knew*, though, that this of course wouldn't make me a better sailor - I just had new stuff.



What surprised me, though, was the resentful attitude I got from a few folks at the event. I never claimed to be a great skipper, and I didn't come off **** (I don't think). In fact, my best finish was a third, I think, and I finished 14th overall - AND I WAS THRILLED! It was only my second regatta as a skipper. Some people, though, were vocally pleased that I didn't do better. That's an attitude that I don't understand at all.



Materially prejudiced? No dealers would be able to sail if this were a criterion for exclusion. I *want* to race against guys like Newkirk and Smyth and Curry - I live near them and get to see them on the course all the time... even when I get horizoned, I still learn a little. Let's be honest - sponsors want the guys who win to be their teams... I may not get sposored again any time soon, but why shouldn't I hope and work for it?



John

Sorry, Mary, didn't mean be provocative!



I was referring to the Wave Open, Womens, Masters and Youth Nationals. I don't advocate any kind of discrimination!!! But if I'm inferring correctly, and please forgive a genuine mistake if I'm not, the different classes are to allow a litle more "apples to apples" competition, right? That's all I meant to allude to.. that it's sometimes desirable to limit the variables that don't directly involve sailing ability - and sometimes it's not.



I am not taking issue with your basic point; I specifically affirmed it; that we learn from racing, and learn most from racing the best; who usually delight in helping others to excell, too.



An of course you're right, the contents of an ordinary sail box, plus loaners from friendly cometitors, are beyond reproach, or even discussion. I can't imagine wanting to win a race by reason that a better sailor was unable to compete - I'd be crushed, I literally would be unable to value any award won that way. I'd always know it was the other guy's accolade. Most of us feel that way, right? I carry pounds and pounds of pins, shackles, used line, nearly new line, harnesses wetsuits, pfd's just in case somebody on the beach needs a hand - mostly because I'm 'paying forward' many past kindnesses.



But on the other hand, to name a striking example, the Worrell seems to measure a TEAM's ability to meet a challenging and exhillerating course, and the guys with the most back-up can push their boats harder. A regular guy with a single boat could entertain hopes of both finishing and even placing well in the standings, sure, it's been done, hasn't it? But one tough break and he's out - while his peers go on. Can't they push harder? Sure. So preparation and mega-spares can become a factor, under some circumstances.



AND I"m Not complaining about this! It's just different, neither better nor worse, IMHO, than a hyppothetically "less professional" event. I'm THRILLED to see the attention from sponsors and the general public this event gets.



My original, (badly worded) post was intended to point out that the other person's objection may either be to sailing against pro's, or to competing against the better gear and preparation/backup etc., that pro's sometimes can bring to the event.



I object to neither; I have a mild preference that if a guy's sailing faster, it would be neat if I could restrict my questions to how he's handling the boat on the water, and not who cut his sail or milled his rudders or whatever... That said, I freely lay credit for my own small, debatable success lately on Rick's book and Randy's Sails, in no particular order. But ON the other, other hand, I"m excited by Rick's description of how the Wave events focus on sailing ability - I"ll have no excuses for finishing last!!!



I'm curious (read:"ignorant"): do "sponsored" 'big-program" competitors in events like the America's cup and Worrell typically take the "my box is your box" attitude you and I have? I genuinely don't know. Would 3M like to see their competitors helping their competition, in the name of noble sportsmanship (I like this) or would they object on the basis that attrition is part of the selection process that ultimately designates a winner, which they are hoping will be "their boat"??

Hey Ed -



I enjoy your posts - especially your tips for beginning skippers.



Regarding your question about the sharing of parts, support, etc. at the Worrell, I can unequivocally say that everyone at that event has shared or borrowed SOMETHING. I've seen great attitudes from every team for the three years I have had the priviledge of attending. From parts to sails to tools to pushers/catchers to beer. My first year was with a low budget team, and I got a TON of advice, help, and alcohol from the managers of other teams. My past two years have been with a high-end team, and your "pat-it-forward" attitude was our official written team policy. Our parts trailer was wide open every day and I frequently saw my sailors and team members helping other teams.



Boat selection and event politics aside, the Worrell is a great example of a fleet that, after two weeks of hell, is hoping that every other team gets to the finish line too. Sailors and ground crews alike! Even if we have to carry each other!



John

That's the nicest thing I've read in a while, John.



"Sailing folks is the best folks there is."

I heard Dennis Connors spends a lot of time 'campaigning' for sponsors, and his crew spends much of their time practicing wi/out him... poor devil!

-< race face ,--of a not too "serious" --gettin old ,-ex - pro racer



laughing at myself a little today ,-

-

Some of my favorite posters above , thanks all ,

Each adding their own experiences philosophy and resulting formed self determining opinion is all each can contribute,and hope it pertains in some way , interests, constructively informs, and helps the reader resolve internal human conflicts of value in judgement, --pure sport vs prize money and potential team sponsorship.Sounds like a good basis of a plot theme for a novel ,-

{ been reading Ann Rand again lately ,-art of fiction and writting -can you tell } --joking a little--



-The only major beach cat professional racing series I,m aware of in the U S was back in 88 in the Ultimate Yacht Racing Series on then new H-21s with spin, -and U-30s and J-24s {monos } and also Pro-sail events sailed on H-21s and Formula 40s both held at different geographic locations around the country ,-some televised . -Newport R I ,-Corpus Cristy Texas ,-Great Lakes , St Clair MI ,--back to Mystic Conn. -Miami FL , were some of the locations of pro-sailing events we sailed the H-21 in that year .



Rog and I placed well in several events and won one event in Mystic and recieved 5 ,OOO which almost covered our travel expences and a new spin , plus medical costs of 12 stiches in my hand racing ,--just ducted taped it up for racing the last day ,-{hey we were winning } --that's another story .-That's the most any ever won in any individual race event , ---pro -beach cat sailing ,---it does not really exist in any normal sence and understanding with other forms of often less challenging very high paying sport we see televised by comparison . We all sail for the enjoyment and love of the sport ,-evan if you reach the top levels there is no where to take them beyond the enjoyment of events and people your with. , Your not going to recieve 20 million from Nike to endource their sailing shoes , You may get a pair at cost if your really good.---Pro beach cat sailing ,---hmmm .



One team from Austrailia {Brett}won the majority of Prosail series races but again reportedly did not evan cover travel expenses .



-There are several races currently that offer prize money ,-

distance races , and a buoys race this year in the U S ,

Are the recipiants of this now PRO s , ---naaaa .



In the Worrell most teams are at least partially sponsored ,

some again reportedly recieving several tens of thousands ,

iT IS A HUGE ADVANTAGE for those teams but , is part of the challenge when you deside to race in this very special type of event . Sponsorship opportunities are potentially available for all teams .



The judgements made and path chosen by each is tetermined by personal goals , for me it's been a great experience that actually brought me back into sailing after being away almost a decade . Just got the notion to race the Worrell again and showed up in Ft Lauderdale FL one May ,completely cold and out of practise ,-but gave it my best , and had some fantastic ocean racing experiences .

Been back seval times since , hopefully my 7th next year.



In the final annalysis suppose the question is ,-Is this good for the sport and people choosing to be involved in it , -

Sponsors , advertising , boats travel gear equipement and expences are all very much a part of the sport and our everyday lives.

-Evan without the practise time ,event partisipation ,sailing skill and ability I once had ,the answer is overwhelmingly ,YES , -mainly because as several have noted earlier , it is really about getting out enjoying the sport , life in general , and some great people involved in it with a similar enthusiasm and love of the sport ,-{ including sponsors } ,-there are some great ones out there , celebrate life all you can !!-

Do I hope sponsorship availability is on the increase and becomes more easily attained by race teams and event organizers for more events and similar distance races ,-

-you betcha-







Have fun

Sail safe



Carl Roberts

Lots of races restrict gender. The Olympics has a women's dinghy class, women's sailboard class, open 2-person dinghy class, etc.

Likewise, Rolex Women's Keelboat Championship is not open to men.

Laser Masters Championship had restrictions based on age.

You said:

I was referring to the Wave Open, Womens, Masters and Youth Nationals. I don't advocate any kind of discrimination!!! But if I'm inferring correctly, and please forgive a genuine mistake if I'm not, the different classes are to allow a litle more "apples to apples" competition, right? That's all I meant to

allude to.. that it's sometimes desirable to limit the variables that don't directly involve sailing ability - and sometimes it's not.



And I respond:

You are not inferring correctly about the Wave Nationals -- no apples to apples. Everybody races as one fleet. The subdivisions are just to make it possible to lure more contestants in different categories and give out more trophies. But it is completely possible, for instance, for a woman to win the overall, the women's and the master's trophies. Or a female teenager could win the overall and the youth and the women's. No discrimination whatsoever here. A man over 55 can win both the overall and the master's. Everyone has a chance to win in all categories they are eligible for. The only separate category we don't have is "Men's Only." Sorry about that.

Sorry, jCasto. I was not talking about the Olympics or about monohull regattas that are clearly labeled as Masters events, or men only or women only. I was talking about normal regattas in the beach-cat world. I didn't think I needed to clarify that, since this is a beach-cat forum. I will try to be more specific -- and wordy -- in the future.

I bought a Laser once that just happend to be a "Timex Limited Edition" - it had "Timex" splashed all over it because it was an ex worlds boat. I happened to join a new club at about the same time and much to my amusement everybody assumed I was a bit of a pro.. It didn't take them long to realise that a badged up (or sponsored) boat does not necessarily imply the sailor is a hot shot...



At the F18 worlds this year Mitch Booth used his fully (soft) battened jib to take 3 World Championship wins in a row. I read today [Y&Y] that there were some grumblings about his jib, but also a relutant recognition that even without it, he'd probably have still won. Which goes back to what Mary said above: these guys get the latest gear after they've become the best and earned their pro status; they aren't the best just because of their gear; put Mitch Booth on an out-of-the-box Tiger and he'd still win...



Which says to me that its pointless buying the latest and greatest go-faster toys until you've learned to race well - one bad tack and all that money might as well have gone on beer... :-)



Regards,

Colin J

www.sailwave.com

"Don't ask what what others can do to make it fair, ask what you can do to get even."