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Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110481
06/28/07 06:07 AM
06/28/07 06:07 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Quote
"Shelf hardening" is a term we use to describe the natural hardening of aluminum extrusions over time.


This is news to me, that alu extrusions harden over time? What is going on, oxydation below the surface level? Does this mean that old masts are suspect as they stiffen and hence become more brittle?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110482
06/28/07 06:23 AM
06/28/07 06:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Aluminum extruders are our number one issue for discontinuing product that is at low production volume. We have to buy thousands of pounds of extrusion when we do.


Interesting. One wonders how small builders like VectorWorks Marine and AHPC handle this. Their stock size is at max 500 kg or 1000 lbs, that is about 35 masts.

The new custom beams for the Aussie blade comprise an initial stock size of 250 kg (500 lbs), about 60 beams (or 30 sets for 30 boats).

Total stock costs for the alu (masts and beams) is not more then one fully fitted boat. Through sharing of production batches the costs have been reduced further. Although it must be said that he fact that they use straight beams instead of curved ones is helping.

In their opinion, producing and stocking hulls is much more of an issue.

In Australia, small classes who lost builder support have found a neat way to compensate for the alu "issue", the class itself owns the extrusion dye and the class itselfs maintains a stock of masts and beams. And this is really not as expensive as it seems, so maybe this is an idea for the H20 owners ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: PTP] #110483
06/28/07 06:30 AM
06/28/07 06:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

And yeah, what is shelf hardening??



Matt Miller's version of "being uninformed and just plain full of hot air."

Sorry Matt.

Wouter

(Aluminium age hardens, a proces that is artificially induced and accellerated during production to improve the material properties of alu masts. The same proces, although very slowly, continues even when the mast is on the boat and may well take decades before it effects becomes significant. It is not a reason for not using 6 year old masts on new boats)


Last edited by Wouter; 06/28/07 07:00 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Y'all are wondering why? [Re: 16nut] #110484
06/28/07 06:42 AM
06/28/07 06:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 195
Straight Outta Hell
B
Boudicca Offline
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Straight Outta Hell
I guess y'all don't know that Hobie USA's big market is to resorts and rental operations who want the plastic 'things.' Resorts buy large numbers at once and buy somewhat frequently what with the destruction rate of such hard-used boats. Hobie is merely answering to their market.


Engineers running the biz? Absolutely, obviously, not in our case here. Hobie is demonstrating what happens when MBAs run the whole show. First: the outing of X-boats from regattas, now: the discontinuation of classes. If engineers have their preferred choices, they would be producing what they think are the kewlest highest-tech products at the most efficient production price possible. They would care less what happened at regattas, for that has nothing to do with design and production. No decent engineer wants to touch marketing with a 20-foot pole, and that's why they're 'bad' at it.


This sig would be something witty, but the censors are against that.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #110485
06/28/07 06:50 AM
06/28/07 06:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
Quote
"Shelf hardening" is a term we use to describe the natural hardening of aluminum extrusions over time.


This is news to me, that alu extrusions harden over time? What is going on, oxydation below the surface level? Does this mean that old masts are suspect as they stiffen and hence become more brittle?


I've heard of "age hardening" (precipitation hardening) but that term is a bit of a misnomer - it's a heat treatment process...I've never heard that aluminum extrusions gradually harden over time...or maybe "age hardening" is a quick way to do what might naturally take place over a large period of time?


Jake Kohl
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #110486
06/28/07 07:38 AM
06/28/07 07:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
All engineering metals are alloy's of some degree as the pure metals themselfs have often rather poor material properties. The basic principle of alloy's is that material properties are improved by enclosing elements (atoms, bubbles or "layers") of dissimilar metals inside the structure of the base metal. These enclosures pre tension the framework (through dislocations) that links all atoms to eachother and as such resist stretching or deformation by blocking reordering of the atom/molecule grid. Often they also change the chemical properties of the material, increasing corrosion resistance for example.

In effect alloys are a solution of the base metal with much lower quantities of dissimilar metals; a solution that has been frozen into a "fixed" state. However this state is not entirely "fixed", overtime and very slowly, these atoms/bubbles/dislocations may relocate themselfs or change the shape/size/composition. With it a significant portion of the alterations to the (alloy) material properties may occur.

This natural tendency to slow change over time is often much accellerated artificially during production to "soften" material or "pre-harden", i.e. to arrive at the exact desired material properties. This is the intent of heat treatments of alloys. It is then frozen down to a much much much slower speed so these properties are maintained within certain margins for many years.

Some alloys became softer over time other harden. Everything is possible depending on the initial state the solution was frozen into.

But shelf hardening is just non-sense. Because the same proces would also occur after the boat was sold. So if someone claims that selfhardening over say 3 years makes stock alu masts unfit for retail then they are also implicetly saying that the same stuff has become "worn-down" on a 3-year old boat as well. Not something customers want to hear.

Having said this, it is also not necessary on beach cat alu products like beams and masts. Nice stable alloys are currently available for that. The only item I came across that had significant aging problems were the alu castings on Prindles (hobies ?). And even then it would take 10 to 15 years to be significant (which is still not the same as unacceptable).

The only exception would be when certain manipulations were required to the items after being extruded. Certain machining activities and such, but still I have not found this to be a big issue with modern extruded alu alloys. Maybe Hobie has to do something to their beams that is an exception to this general rule but I wouldn't know what. With regard to mast I can't think of a single activity that would make building up masts problematic after say 5 or even 10 years.

I know that on modern designs with straight beams, straight V-ed dolphinstrikers and obviously straight masts; you don't need to do any machining after extruding, anodising and cutting them to length at the extruders yard. Pretty much all you need to do is to drill holes, rivet/bolt/screw parts into place and cut the sail entry slot. None of this is ever a problem.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/28/07 07:41 AM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Jake] #110487
06/28/07 07:58 AM
06/28/07 07:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
Quote

(precipitation hardening) but that term is a bit of a misnomer - it's a heat treatment process...


I'm not sure if you can read this Jake, but the reason it is called "precipitation hardening" and not plain "heat treatments hardening" is because there two ways to harden metals which both use heat treatments to regulate the amound of hardening.

Precipitation hardening uses the effects of enclosed dissimilar metal inside a base metal. Here the heat treatment affects the size, shape and distribution of the enclosures.

Plain heat treatment hardening (English name ?) use the ability of a certain metals to change their own metal structure to different forms. These changes are nearly always the results of temperature. As such there is no need for any alloy elements and as such it is a different hardening method to precipitation hardening. A good example of this plain hear hardening is normal iron/steel. Heat it and then cool it very rapidly and it will became very hard (and brittle). This can then be soften again by mildly heating it for a given period of time at a lower temperature. Allowing portions of the dissimilarity to morph back to less hard grid structures.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110488
06/28/07 08:18 AM
06/28/07 08:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Posts: 1,187
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Quote
"Shelf hardening" is a term we use to describe the natural hardening of aluminum extrusions over time. It doesn't take that long to become a problem. Another issue is corrosion. We have to bend and machine, harden and anodize before they harden or corrode.

Still looking at my 20 and trying to figure which extrusion you bent?
Skip the black and clear anodize it, black anodized aluminum doesn't age gracefully and I can paint the comp tip.
Black will be "way cool" on your plastic boats, it was cool in the 80's, today I don't care.


John H16, H14
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110489
06/28/07 08:35 AM
06/28/07 08:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Quote
In Australia, small classes who lost builder support have found a neat way to compensate for the alu "issue", the class itself owns the extrusion dye and the class itselfs maintains a stock of masts and beams. And this is really not as expensive as it seems, so maybe this is an idea for the H20 owners ?Wouter

...and the 18 owners, and the 17 owners.
What class besides Mosquito has done this?
Who and where is the sugar daddy that will buy molds? (IF Hobie would sell the molds)
What, about $5K (17) to $8K (20) for a one-zy run set of hulls?

I suppose a special dispensation may be requested to satisfy IHCA General Rule 6. NON HOBIE CAT COMPANY MANUFACTURERS OF EQUIPMENT and written approval from the IHCA can be obtained to be designated as "Hobie Class Legal"


John H16, H14
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110490
06/28/07 08:56 AM
06/28/07 08:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Clayton Offline
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South Louisiana, USA
Quote
"I have loved my Hobie 18 for 27 years...."
I can't see anyone saying that about their rotomolded Getaway!


Maybe if Hobie didn't make the 18's last so long some of those sailors would have bought new ones! Obviously as a customer of 27 years ago he expects Hobie to sit around with new boats until he finally wants another one.

As a buisness owner (and most of you are not) we have a problem called employees, they tend to want to get paid at the end of the week! Each company does what it deems best for their bottom line, if someone out there can do it better by all means get out the check book and make it happen. Vectorworks seems to be doing that (lets see what happens in a couple of years with additional models and waning sales of the older style). I think thats great for them! I wish I could buy one of those Blades.

Blasting Matt about what Hobie is doing is like telling one of my employees you don't like how I'm running my business... he's got nothing to do with what decisions I make so you're wasting your time.

Just my rant,

Clayton

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Clayton] #110491
06/28/07 09:50 AM
06/28/07 09:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
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Appleton, WI
I was enjoying reading this thread, but I’m beginning to just shake my head at it. There are a lot of people brighter than me on this forum, so please enlighten me.

Maybe I’m off base, but I just don’t understand everyone slamming Hobie for making a business decision. I can’t sit in my board meetings with a straight face and tell the other members that even though product line A is no longer selling and we’re loosing loads of money trying to keep the line open, I vote we should keep running it... I can’t show my wife the end-of-year numbers on my properties and tell her that this one over here is loosing money, but I really like the tenants there so I don’t want to sell it. It just doesn’t make any logical sense. If it’s loosing money, it’s time to look for other options. Is a company not allowed to evolve over time? Sorry, but a stagnant company is one that’s not going to be around for very long.

A company has to keep money coming in to keep the doors open. A garage hobbyist is different (provided they are not using their hobby for their main income, at that point, they’re no longer a hobbyist anyway), because they don’t have quite the same fixed costs as a business with employees and buildings, hey can handle a slow period in sales. They can just put the hobby on hold for a few months until they get their next order in. With a larger business, you have employees, those employees want to get paid and they don’t really care if sales are up or down, they want their paycheck (oh yeah, and lay-offs aren’t real popular option amongst hourly employees). The bank wants their money for the mortgage on your buildings. The utility company wants to get paid for providing you with lights and heat. Some of these costs are fixed whether you’re selling your product or not.

I don’t understand how everyone on the outside of Hobie thinks they know better than Hobie to make this decision. We’re not seeing their financial or sales reports. We don’t know the real numbers. Do you really think Hobie hasn’t looked at their processes in building this boat and tried to trim the fat? If they have any business sense at all, they’ve been doing that since the boat was first being designed and prototyped and have continued to try to save money in the build process since that day.

On the issue of Hobie abandoning their customers… that’s a whole different topic than why they’re closing a line. Don’t mix the two. Maybe they are abandoning their loyal customers, but I still think it’s their right to evolve in any direction they think will make them money and keep their business thriving. Isn’t it better for a company to close a product line and stay in business than to just slowly tailspin into bankruptcy? How can you fault anyone for making a business decision that will keep them profitable in the long run?

Obviously, just my opinion, blast away <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Paul

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Clayton] #110492
06/28/07 09:56 AM
06/28/07 09:56 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Seeker  Offline
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Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
For Hobie, evidently the romance is over…Her passion for what you long for is gone…Hobie is just a material girl in a material world. Just like the X-girl friend in high school… or an X-wife… they have “moved on”… “grown in a different direction”…and their “needs” are not being met (turning a profit) by their faithful followers. She has found a new “sugar daddy” the Resort/Rental market. You…my friend…are a faded memory. It was good while it lasted but “that was then…this is now”. Can’t pay current bills from sales profits earned 10 years ago.

So to all you diehard Hobie fans out there that are heartbroken…suck it up…yes, you will take a financial hit because your boat is in the dead boat society (a fate suffered by all boats eventually)…but don’t despair…other girls are out there (Hi-Performance oriented Cat Builders) that would love to build a relationship with you…who knows?... maybe Hobie is doing you a favor by “letting you go”. Now you can broaden your horizons and discover new catamaran possibilities that were not available while you were “married” to Hobie. Quit groveling…it won’t do any good, and it’s down right embarrassing to watch…Just like the x-girl friend or x-wife that dumped you, Hobie doesn’t want you back…unless it is on their terms, plastic…Go your separate ways, hold on to the good memories and let go of the rest…

Your free…A new passion a waits…choose wisely and enjoy every minute of it.

Regards,
Bob

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Clayton] #110493
06/28/07 10:23 AM
06/28/07 10:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 216
Lakewood, Colorado
MUST429 Offline
enthusiast
MUST429  Offline
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Posts: 216
Lakewood, Colorado
[quote
Maybe if Hobie didn't make the 18's last so long some of those sailors would have bought new ones! Obviously as a customer of 27 years ago he expects Hobie to sit around with new boats until he finally wants another one.

Blasting Matt about what Hobie is doing is like telling one of my employees you don't like how I'm running my business... he's got nothing to do with what decisions I make so you're wasting your time.

Just my rant,

Clayton [/quote]

Just for the record, I bought the FIRST of my brand new Hobie 18's 27 years ago. The last New 18 I bought was delivered to me on a Wednesday in October of 2003, the same week the announcement was made that they were discontinuing production on the H-18.

Further, over the past 6 years, I have bought and refurbished 10 Hobie 18's using factory parts whenever possible. Looking back over my purchases I have spent not spent less than $1000 on HOBIE parts in any one year, and some years I have spent significantly more than that.

I have not yet had the opportunity to make my feelings known to any of the rest of "Hobie Management", and their stable of "intelligent engineers" aren't posting here so I cannot address them either. However, if we don't use the path of communication that Matt Miller provides, how will our thoughts ever make it to the upper echelon? If we just roll over and say nothing, HCC will think it is just fine that they abandon us.

Having been self employed for over 30 years, I do have a fair understanding of some of the issues facing HCC.

I certainly do not understand ALL of the issues but it seems to me that there must be a way to approach this that does not include killing off all of the classes with the exception of the Hobie 16.

Stephen


Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: _flatlander_] #110494
06/28/07 11:14 AM
06/28/07 11:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
Beside the Mosquito's I think the Arrows did something similar.

I'm not trying to start a revolution here but how about walking up to Hobie US and claim that it is in their interest to GIVE you the old dyes (moulds) for free as compensation for discontinuing to "do" the H17, TheMightyHobie18, H20. Afterall the dye (mould) has already been payed for and is not of any use to them any more as they won't be ordering any new batches. You probably have to rename the design but that is no biggy. Just call it the MidWest-20 and be done with it.

The alu extrusions are not the difficult or expensive part. Producing new hulls will be. But I seem to remember that the Mosquito class even owns a set of moulds.

Of course this all will ONLY work when the H17, TheMightyHobie18, H20 sailors can organise themselfs into a strong class organisation outside of the IHCA. With class officials willing to really get into "class work".

Others have done it, so therefor you guys can so too. It just takes a can-do mentality and the willingness of the boat owners to invest in their own futures. It will certainly be something else then transferring your IHCA membership fee once a year and pontificating about 100.000 boats sold.

So the real question will be how strong these owners love their boats and how willing they are to go the extra mile and make it survive as a class.

But I can tell you that if these guys succeed at this that the enjoyment of being part of the surviving class will be heaps more. You'll be proud of what all the members of the class will have achieved by working together and nobody will able to take that away from you. That is a great rush.

I say; go for it !

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/28/07 11:24 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: 16nut] #110495
06/28/07 01:07 PM
06/28/07 01:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
[Linked Image]

R.I.P. Hobie-20...

Sad day, but not unexpected.

When I was a lad I lusted after the Hobie-16. Ironically, I've never sailed a 16...

But my first beach cat was a Hobie-14 I got after getting out of college. I remember being dismayed at the announcement that 14s would no longer built in the U.S., and I thought "what a shame", as I thought then and now that with a little marketing that boat is the perfect answer to people sailing Lasers.

I moved up to the 18 and remember feeling dismayed when the announcement came that 18 production would cease. I thought "what a shame", because I thought then and still think that the 18 was about the best dual-purpose cat ever made - great for day sailing and blasting around and a good racer too.

I moved up to the Hobie-20 and really enjoyed that boat. Although I quickly moved to the 6.0 (better boat for the heavy sailor), I still have a soft spot for the H-20 for the way it sailed. I also happen to think it's one of the prettiest beach cats (Tornado is my other choice). But lack of updates to the boat and sail plan said to me its time was running out. So even though I haven't sailed a 20 in couple of year, I still feel "what a shame", as I think if some updates were allowed it might have had a longer life.

And no, none of those boats were bought new by me. But I can't begin to total up all the Hobie factory parts I bought through the years fixing those boats up to sail and race. But I understand you need to sell boats to keep the lines open.

Oddly enough, when word came that 6.0 production was to cease, I didn't feel that bad. As much as I really like the 6.0, there was already a follow-on boat from Performance that answered the need being expressed by the 6.0 sailors, and that was the I-20. And as they've been dropping boats, other boats have been introduced as well. Less of a feeling of death, more of a feeling of moving on.

After moving to the N-20, my first impression was that the helm felt like my old H-20 - responsive, light, and lively.

So I guess that's why I feel worse when Hobie cancels a boat, because there's nothing to move to in the Hobie line up. It feels more final. And whether we currently sail Hobie boats or not, we all owe Hobie credit for the revolution that gave the whole thing its breath of life in the first place.

But, like the rest of us, I feel compelled to offer my $0.02 for some things that could have been changed. And I'll admit up front that I'm not a manufacturer/engineer. But, I was always amazed at the number of unique casted bits and extrusions on my 18. It seemed at the time that if things like the mast step were changed to the standard post/ball of the other boats, the boom used the same extrusion as the 20, the hulls were modifed to use a straight beam or one without casted end bits, the tiller connectors used from the 20, etc. the cost would be reduced on those items quite a bit. And that would have helped the economies of scale needed to make the other boats profitable as well. The 16 could have have done that as well (at least the step, boom, and tiller connectors), again adding to the numbers for the bulk orders of castings. As the boats get cancelled the opportunites for that happening lessen and go away. It sometimes seemed that the desire to not ever change things for the sake of the OD class meant nothing could even be done to help production. And again I feel that if the 20 could have modernized a little some excitement and boat sales might still be there.

It's interesting times for this sport. I was thinking about it all last night and realized I don't remember when the official plug was pulled on Prindle. Has it been? Seems to have quietly disappeared. We should have had a wake. In this year alone, Performance has been sold overseas, Hobie quits the 20, and my other boating love, Corsair, has moved to Vietnam. And for all the good and sound business decisions that led to all that, it still feels a little odd as a multihull sailor. I wish them all success.

But this year we have four new F-16 Blades from Vectorworks in our club, joining the the active Taipan we already had. The N-20 has formed a OD class at the local "official" yacht club. So it looks good, at least locally. I hope that Vectorworks continues to step up, what they're doing looks good so far.

We've gotten the word out about the sport and we have people looking to buy (mostly used, some new), sail, and race catamarans. The local Hobie dealer doesn't notice, and that's sad. But they have less and less to offer, and don't want to promote what they do offer as it pertains to the sport.

So, R.I.P. Hobie-20. Welcome to the Dead Boat Society. As always, you'll always be welcome at the X-Boat races.

Attached Files
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Last edited by Keith; 06/28/07 01:30 PM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Keith] #110496
06/28/07 01:17 PM
06/28/07 01:17 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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West coast of Norway
Not to yank your chain mmiller, but this is in my opinion a weakness to the SMOD concept.
Perhaps you could try selling in the idea of donating the moulds at least to the class so hulls could be buildt in the future? Or releasing measurement templates and converting the H-20 class into something like the Tornado where everyone can build a boat. Your PR drones should be able to make something out of that, instead of the current sentiments we see here. Just a suggestion..


Now I am wondering how long it takes for an alu mast to 'harden' enough as to make it useless/unreliable..

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #110497
06/28/07 01:21 PM
06/28/07 01:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
bsquared Offline
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Northern VA
Hobie has never made real money off of racers (well, not since the 80s, anyway). The resorts and rentals help, but the MAJORITY of their income (I'm guessing) has been and will continue to be Mom and Pop weekender who want a boat to putz around in; a large percentage of these boats will sit a lot of the time. They sell more kayaks than sailboats now, even WITH the cheap import competition. I bet the 16 still gets some crossover sales from this "fun" market AND the rental area AND a heck of a lot of parts sales; ain't nobody (statistically speaking) buying a Tiger or 20 to fool around with on the lake, and I can't imagine a rental place that would put up with the maintenance and liability issues of renting these boats (especially crew-chewer 20s :-).

The cat racing scene is declining in the US. Look at Div 11, covering most of the Chesapeake Bay and Jersey Shore; some great sailing areas in the most densely populated part of the country. Attendance has been on a down trend since the 80s. We used to have a 10-12 boat 20 fleet; last year the Div Championship was based on a two-boat match race at one regatta. I think I might have the newest 20 in the whole Div with a '98 (that I bought used). The 18s are still hanging in there, and even jumped up a little recently, but only one? of those guys has bought a new boat in the last 5 years. HOW CAN YOU SUPPORT PRODUCTION with those kind of sales in a major market?? How many ex and new racers are now on A-Cats, Nacra 20s, F-16s, and even back to 16s? Even worse, how many are not racing?

Other than the Hobie 18/20 (and Shark?), there isn't ANY viable US one design two-man big boat non-spin cat racing. That market looks pretty f'ing small. Is there viable racing in this segment in Europe? Clearly most cat racers are not boat-loyal; the latest/greatest always sells some boats. IMO a lot of people moved to the 20 because it was faster; some of them didn't like that faster = more work and more fragile, and went back, and some of them liked faster still and moved on. H18s, P19s, H20s, Mystere 6.0s, and N6.0s all came to market as the fastest affordable racer you could get (we'll leave the Tornado out of this for the moment, but where is the US fleet on THAT?). Now the fastest affordable racer you can get has a spin, and all of those other boats have really dropped. Give Hobie and the class association some credit; if we were talking about a brand X 18 and 20, they would have already disappeared as a class. Square tops are new, carbon masts are new, maybe everything will have a spin in the future. A cheap simple Getaway snuffer kit would sell a few, I bet.

Get back to the Shark. Here is an old design limited production class in this same category still hanging in there, and you can still buy a new Shark at a fairly resaonable price (I think). I cannot belive the builder is making enough to live on soley by building Sharks. In theory, the class COULD commission a builder and make new 20s; they could even approve slight changes to account for non-Hobie design and parts (are they still building Hurrican 5.9s in the UK?). I still suspect that even a small builder would be hard pressed to live off of 18 AND 20 sales, but if this builder was also making Mobjacks and Buccaneers (to name two monohull classes that have already gone through this MULTIPLE times), then maybe it works. It does NOT work for a volume manufacturer UNLESS they want to make a statement AND have money to burn.

I hope the boat lives on, and I would LOVE to see a super 20 with square top, carbon mast and skinny daggers, carefully handbuilt and weighing in at 375 or less :-) I don't see Hobie building anymore, though, and I don't blame them. Oh, by the way, expect to see a classified ad next spring for a cherry '98...

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110498
06/28/07 01:45 PM
06/28/07 01:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
While we are picking on Hobie for cancelling production on the Hobie 20. Lets have a moment of silence for the list of other boats that have passed... and feel free to add, as there are many. Many more have been changed so often that they are not even the same boats.

I know of a few (hey... most are from Performance):

Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.2
Nacra 5.5uni
Nacra 5.5sl
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.8
Nacra 5.5NA
Nacra 18sm
Nacra 18
Nacra 6.0
Nacra 6.0 NA (several vesrions)
Inter 18 (several versions)
Prindle 15
Prindle 16
Prindle 18
Prindle 18-2
Prindle 19
Narca I17
Nacra F18
Super Cat 20
Super Cat 17
Hard Core 16
Sol Cat 18
Sol Cat 20
Alfa Cat
Pacific 18
Escape Velanza 16'7"
Express 6.0 spi
F-31R Tri (Kona SC)
F-33R
Firebird 26
Formula 40
Formula 500
Freestyle 474
Fulmar 19 Tri
G-Cat 5.0 Turbo 1-up rchr
G-Cat 6.1
Gemini 3000
Gemini 3200
Gemini 33.6
Gemini 3400
G-Force 18
G-Force 21
G-Force 21/W1000 w/spi
Gougeon 32
Gulfstream 35
Hardcore 16
Hirondelle 24 M.H.
Hughes 35
Hurricane 500
Hydrosail 21
Isotope Slp 2-up, 250# crew min
Iroquois 31.6
Jump Ahead Cat
Kantola 38
Lynx Cat (14')
MacGregor 36
Maine Cat 22
Malibu Outrigger
Marstrom 18
Musketeer
Mystere 5.5 XL 1-up
Mystere S
Nacra 4.5 Slp 2-up
Nacra 4.5 Uni 1-up
Newick Native 38 Tri
Osborn 42
Paper Tiger
P-Cat 2/18
P-Cat 3/18
PDQ Cat 32
Phoenix
Piver Tri 17 (Textri)
Poison Oak
Prindle 20
Privilege 42
Reynolds 21
Scamp
Sea Spray 15(Mod,Can.)
Sea Spray 18
Seaside 22
Seawind 24
Shearwater Mk IV
Shockwave 37
Sizzler (SA=150)
Stampede
Tahoe 18 Tri
Thai Mk 4
Tiger Cat
Topcat (1-up
Trac 18
TrailerTri 680
TrailerTri 720
Tramp
Tremolino Tri
Ventilo 18HT Uni sp2up
Ventilo 20 Slp 32' spi
Viva 27
Warrior 29
Wilson 20 Tri


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110499
06/28/07 01:55 PM
06/28/07 01:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
blockp Offline
member
blockp  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
Quote
claim that it is in their interest to GIVE you the old dyes (moulds) for free


When I was a kid, a friends parents owned a glass company. As I understand it, when they were done with a mold, it cost them money to dispose of it and if someone asked them for it, they would give it to them with the stipulation that any boat that came out of the mold would need to have a badge stating the designers name on it.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #110500
06/28/07 02:03 PM
06/28/07 02:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
I am wondering how long it takes for an alu mast to 'harden' enough as to make it useless/unreliable..


The point is that we have to buy raw extrusions. These have minimum runs in the thousands of pounds per die / shape. This material is received here unhardened (they are in an annealed state from the extruder). The concern was for the extrusion not to be wasted / damaged by corrosion or not bend properly (such as the 14,16, 17 and 18 crossbars). We first machine and then send for hardening and anodize. In the case of the 20, the concern is mostly corrosion, the material will have cosmetic blemishes that would be unacceptable. In the case of bending, the material will actually begin to harden naturally and at some point it will not bend properly and sometimes kink. We would have to spend labor on materials that would not be used. That raises the cost per boat to an unreasonable level.


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Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
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