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Re: One more time [Re: Ziv_Levanon] #110561
06/29/07 04:38 PM
06/29/07 04:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Z
Ziv_Levanon Offline
stranger
Ziv_Levanon  Offline
stranger
Z

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
in our club, which stores 120 cats (mostly Hobies and Nacras) when I organize a regatta, I have 10-15 boats, when I organize a raid, with a nice BBQ in the middle, we have 40-50 boats.
easy simple math...


Hobie Cat Dealer Havazellet Hasharon ISRAEL
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Re: One more time [Re: Ziv_Levanon] #110562
06/29/07 05:30 PM
06/29/07 05:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
People have been talking about what a PINTA the spinny setup is to rig etc. I have no race fleet so with my development boat I have decided on small jib and roller furling hooter a la Rick.....I suppose some people like the million line rig but I sail alone and just cannot be fagged.
Re Getaway. I suppose I look at the 17 with wings and the 18 with wings and wonder why anyone would bother with the rotomold...but I am not a dad.
The Hobie 17 always struck me a a wonderful dedicated boat. Like the Mazda MX5 when it first came out. Dedicated to a specific and no comprimise. I was stunned it did not take off like wild fire and more stunned when it was discontinued. But I do remember one racing against H16s. It was faster but the guy could just not make it tack. It is a fabulous family boat with the jib in the right hands. We have a family of dad and kids who use one here for play and have a ball.

Re: One more time [Re: pbisesi] #110563
06/29/07 05:42 PM
06/29/07 05:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Pat

I completely forgot about the start fiasco.
It was truly ugly when every class was awarded a start... the sequence at Gunpowder took 35 minutes to complete one year..10 minute sequence plus 16 A, B and C plus 17's 18's and 20;s... (Open started on the 5 minute gun). Worse.. you would only have a handful of boats in most of these starts... Yes.. the C fleet would go one lap and then sit for half an hour.... Not fun.

It took forever (years) to get the starts down to three..
16's, + 17's and 18's. + open and 20's The HCA rules did not speed this process up if I remember... Lots of noise about wuf wuf wuf... Our three boats deserve a hobie class start... its a hobie regatta after all and that is what the rules say.

Many dinghy clubs on the bay will run regattas with just two classes.. It makes it easy to manage the water and the property. Yacht clubs who host large annual regattas have to be careful to keep the action moving. eg multiple courses or clever management. The last one we attended, Rock Hall set a winward leeward course and had you finish up wind above the A mark ... then Cruise back to the start line. Certainly spread the boats out (two cat classes and 3 or 4 monohull classes). (kind of hard to P when you are single handed and have to keep moving...)

Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110564
06/29/07 06:02 PM
06/29/07 06:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
Tigermike is right here :

Quote

In your list I didn't see any Hobie products in the boats you previously owned and think your chip about hobie-cat would prevent that from happening no matter what they built.



The bloody guy sails and owns both the Hydra 16 and the Taipan 4.9; there is no way he is ever going to be satisfied with any Hobie beach cat product.

Some Hobie guys need to get out more; there is a whole other beach cat world out there.

Although I do agree that Warbird is coming on a bit strong.

Wouter


I really don't care what he sails. If another manufacturer doesn't make a product that fits with you want then that is fine. Sail what suits your needs. It's entirely different to accuse them of being greedy so-and-so's etc.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110565
06/29/07 06:18 PM
06/29/07 06:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
You have made this a personal attack Mike, to that degree you can eat a bug.
I never sugested a company should be run at a loss, just that profit is not reason to produce crap product.
I sail a Hydra to sail with a mate who has one and because it is a finely tuned and quality sail..rather than the H16 which is not.
I sail a Nacra 14 beacuse it is fun and tough and a good beater in big wind and WAY better than the H14.
And I sail a Taipan because it is WAY better and faster one man boat than any equal length and weight Hobie product ever will be.
It is not that I can't buy a Hobie, it is that I don't want one and the way they are going, I never will.
You say the Getaway is a good boat..but you wouldn't have one.....imagine that.
Re making money, I paint and sail and live here..where do you live Mike? How often are you on the motorway..the nearest is 300k away from my life..money is well second in my life style choices.

And you are wrong mike, as the Tiger comes into a price range I think it's worth I will have one...or a Nacra 17..whichever comes first.


When you start to throw stones, don't be surprised when others come back with rocks. When you say that all CEO's are ripping every body off in every corporation - that is offensive. Don't play all innocent when it comes back to bite you.

I really don't care where you live or what you do - I just hope you are happy. I'm happy where I live and work hard to make a contribution to society managing several businesses and volunteer organizations. I'm sure my lifestyle would not suit you and that is fine but I love it and am very happy. You do what you do, don't crap on others who make different choices.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110566
06/29/07 06:20 PM
06/29/07 06:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
To Tiger Mike and all other Hobie sailors. I want to make an unreserved appology. We all sail cats for fun and excitement and much needed release of pressure and all sorts of other good reasons.
Good luck to you Mike and and your racing and to the dad who is trying to relax and treat his kids on the Hobie Getaway. There is nothing pretty about a boat snob and that is what I was being.
I beleive some of what I said about a need for better business practice but when I read back over this thread I am out of line.


No worries. Time to go for a sail....

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110567
06/29/07 06:22 PM
06/29/07 06:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
Still looking for an answer to an ealier question; is there an active European or Australian turnout in a two-man 18-20 foot non-spin boat?


We get about a dozzen or so TheMightyHobie18's to our state titles every year. Maybe up to 20 at a nationals depending on the location. That is all that I can think of.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110568
06/29/07 10:53 PM
06/29/07 10:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
MIke, Enron is an example of just what thieving B....s corperates are. Give me a break, it is not your nonsense that backed me off it is how I view myself and how I like to present. I do not mean to denigrate the boats of others and I appologised for that but I don't slip into the stupid category either. In my time I have had six settlements from corporates, phone companies etc. I have taken them on myself and the only reason they have had to pay out settlements is that in general corperate attitude is theft by deciept and I am good at catching them.

Your self righteous offence and defence of corperate strategy is vacuous and pathetic because at no time was the finger pointed at you and or the work you do. You chose to be offened for all corporates and if you think average corporate behaviour is honest, you are naive.

I hope you are happy to Mike, but do you know what, I think you are too angry to be happy.

Last edited by warbird; 06/29/07 10:59 PM.
Re: One more time [Re: Ziv_Levanon] #110569
06/30/07 02:42 AM
06/30/07 02:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
grob Offline
addict
grob  Offline
addict

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
Quote
if by selling Getaways Hobie is getting back to the masses than they are doing the very right thing. cat sailing is not only about racing...as a matter of fact mybe 15% are racing...the rest are out there to have fun and enjoy themselfs in a reasonable price


Good to hear a voice of reason, remember Hobie is making this decision based on boat sales and boat sales are what benefits cat sailing most, sailing snobbery against rotomoulded cats does not benifit cat sailing. Many of these boats go to resorts where even more people get to sail them.

I think catsailing will benifit more from two rotomoulded cat sales than one racing boat sale. Therefore concentrating your efforts on the higher selling models benefits not only your bottom line but the sport in general.

Gareth

Re: One more time [Re: grob] #110570
06/30/07 03:02 AM
06/30/07 03:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
veteran
phill  Offline
veteran
P

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Gareth,
You make a very good point.

Exposing new people to cat sailing in a pleaseant fun environment like a resort would have to be a good move
and leave a lasting positive impression of the sport.

Much better getting new sailors and expanding the sailing base than just moving the chairs around the deck of a sinking ship.

So it is quite reasonable to conclude that any company that can get cats into resorts is also helping grow the sport in general.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110571
06/30/07 04:00 AM
06/30/07 04:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
MIke, Enron is an example of just what thieving B....s corperates are. Give me a break, it is not your nonsense that backed me off it is how I view myself and how I like to present. I do not mean to denigrate the boats of others and I appologised for that but I don't slip into the stupid category either. In my time I have had six settlements from corporates, phone companies etc. I have taken them on myself and the only reason they have had to pay out settlements is that in general corperate attitude is theft by deciept and I am good at catching them.


Uhhh I hope we both realize that I wasn't trying to say that every corporation are model citizens. That said, even in Enron's case, it was a handful of very corrupt people who were in very powerful positions that bought the whole thing down. I'd suspect that more were involved than were actually charged however in the context of the company that handful tainted many thousands of honest people who worked hard, all for naught. Surely you don't think HC discontinuing the H20 places them in the Enron league.

Quote
Your self righteous offence and defence of corperate strategy is vacuous and pathetic because at no time was the finger pointed at you and or the work you do. You chose to be offened for all corporates and if you think average corporate behaviour is honest, you are naive.


I'm not offended for all corporates but I will defend myself when people make stupid statements to which I am part of the sub-set. As for corporate honesty - believe it or not - I have been around the block once or twice and even when I have had a run-in with another company (I think it's a fact of life with everybody from time to time), in all situations it has been a case of an honest screw up or lack of communication that is the root of the problem. I'd suggest that out and out dishonesty is actually quite rare.

Quote
I hope you are happy to Mike, but do you know what, I think you are too angry to be happy.


Thanks for the diagnosis Mr Freud. Actually most people who know me personally (face to face) have a very different opinion. Thanks for the sentiment anyway - believe me - I am very content and I don't loose any sleep over being annoyed about anything.

Cheers,
Tiger Mike

Re: One more time [Re: grob] #110572
06/30/07 05:21 AM
06/30/07 05:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

The only 15 % race fallicy:

I have to disagree to some extent with the notion that the fact that only 15 % race means that the other 85 % who don't race carry much more weight in whole sailing scene.

We have personally found that even small but active race groups keep sailing clubs alive. Loose even such a 10 to 15 % group of active racers and the club will see a significant downturn and with it growth and boat sails.

It is like motor bike or automobile racing. Only 0.5 % of the cars build actually race once or more in their life span, STILL it is a major consideration to car builders. Why because it is all about product placing and public perception. Every recreational sailor and weekend warrior likes to reflect his own endeavours against those of the racing hero's.

At our clubs (I've been personal involved with two of them) we have found that club race day attracts alot more clubmembers then the racers themselfves. Other members know that something will be happening that day and that therefor a good size group will hang around the clubs how creating buzz that they enjoy participating in or interacting with. In fact there are more spectators then races on such a day and often they don't actually watch the racing but engage in conversations with others while enjoying a drink and generally have a good time.

In one club we lost this racing scene to mismanagement and surprisingly enough the "good fun" days were almost immediately gone. And interestingly enough in a club with about 100 boats on its parking for 15 to 20 years and an active club racing fleet of ONLY 10 boats, it collapsed to 50 to 60 boats in parking and no racing fleet within some 2 to 3 years. In effect is lost 40 to 50 boats when only 10 boats quite club racing. It has not recovered yet and probably won't soon.

At the club I'm at now similar things had happened a few years earlier and when I switch clubs, because I was an active club racer at the time, they had just initiated a major effort to bring back their club racing. Since then the club has done all right again and a few crews from 2 neighbouring clubs sail over on race day to join us on race day. Again the group is not big in its entirety. about 10-15 boats.

So never ever underestimate the footprint of 10-15 % of the cataraman scene or any sport. This is the group that is pulling the other 85 % along, they are the back bone that keeps the whole 100% standing up. Strike that down, because indeed this group requires alot of investment for meager returns, and you'll risk bringing the whole scene down.

Why ? Because this group are the active sailors, they are the volunteers, they are the guys who are always around at the club and on the water and welcome new sailors, take people out for test rides and maintain the presence on the net and in the local newspapers, they organise the events and maintain the permits.

The other 85 % of the scene, whether they are sailing glass or rotomoulded boats, are one lazy group of free riders that are absolutely NOT interested in organising anything or even being present/sailing for more then 5 times a year. When this group is left to their own devices then they will totally collapse within 2 to 3 years. Which in turn requires them to trailer their boats back home after each sail, which is again too much for most of this group and so they quit. Thus bringing down the scene with them, incl. the roto stuff sales. Irrespectibally of what happens at the resorts.

I've seen this happen in various forms.

This is just the devils deal one has to make as a company when doing boat building in the small boat sailing scene. You have to maintain the core group of 10-15 % of active sailors (=racers) or risk losing the whole 100 % of the privately owned boats (excl. the resorts). Doing this cost money and effort and there is simply no way around it. That is why alot of builders like to enter formula classes as here the investment in maintaining the active portions is shared over more then one pair of shoulders.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/30/07 05:21 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110573
06/30/07 07:01 AM
06/30/07 07:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
Mike, you have put your point to me in a reasonable way. Thank you. I take it on board.
Hope you had a good sail.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110574
06/30/07 08:25 AM
06/30/07 08:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Jesus! This is just getting stupid.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Karl_Brogger] #110575
06/30/07 09:48 AM
06/30/07 09:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
What's with all the level headed reasonable statements by Wouter.
Only one thing can take a guys edge off like that.
A women and then a kid.
Wouter,..What's her name and when are the kids coming?


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: pbisesi] #110576
06/30/07 10:27 AM
06/30/07 10:27 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote
What's with all the level headed reasonable statements by Wouter.
Only one thing can take a guys edge off like that.
A women and then a kid.
Wouter,..What's her name and when are the kids coming?


TigerMike making personal attacks.... Check

pbessi making personal attacks.... Check

mbounds drinking the cool-aid pretty hard.... Still waiting

come on lets complete this Hobie thread guys.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110577
06/30/07 11:42 AM
06/30/07 11:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
Quote
MIke, Enron is an example of just what thieving B....s corperates are. Give me a break, it is not your nonsense that backed me off it is how I view myself and how I like to present. I do not mean to denigrate the boats of others and I appologised for that but I don't slip into the stupid category either. In my time I have had six settlements from corporates, phone companies etc. I have taken them on myself and the only reason they have had to pay out settlements is that in general corperate attitude is theft by deciept and I am good at catching them.

Your self righteous offence and defence of corperate strategy is vacuous and pathetic because at no time was the finger pointed at you and or the work you do. You chose to be offened for all corporates and if you think average corporate behaviour is honest, you are naive.

I hope you are happy to Mike, but do you know what, I think you are too angry to be happy.


Are you a PI attorney? The only things worse than corrupt companies are PI attorneys.

Last edited by PTP; 06/30/07 11:44 AM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: pbisesi] #110578
06/30/07 12:33 PM
06/30/07 12:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
grob Offline
addict
grob  Offline
addict

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
Quote
The other 85 % of the scene, whether they are sailing glass or rotomoulded boats, are one lazy group of free riders


Yes thats the kind of level headed reasonable statement I have come to expect.

I don't know how your club operates but in the clubs I have been inolved in in the UK, all members have to help out and do duties. That inlcudes those that sail only 5 times a year. You have to understand that as peoples life priorities change (usually kids) we cannot all sail every weekend. And I don't think that the 15% (or whatever number it is) that race regularly are more important or do more to promote the sport than the 85% that don't.

Gareth

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: grob] #110579
06/30/07 05:03 PM
06/30/07 05:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

I don't know how your club operates but in the clubs I have been inolved in in the UK, all members have to help out and do duties. That inlcudes those that sail only 5 times a year.


It is the same at our club and the other one I was a member of. However, these people just show up to a prearranged schedule and do their duty. The guys and gal organising the whole shabang, making the schedules, preparing the work etc are still mainly those 15 % of the whole group.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: pbisesi] #110580
06/30/07 05:06 PM
06/30/07 05:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Sorry to disappoint you Pat, but that isn't it.

Maybe it is just that my new career is agreeing with me alot better.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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