I think I am right in my take on this but thought I would throw it out there (slow day on the forum and all):

Two boats on a reach. One boat (L), clearly faster, comes from astern of the first boat (W) and overtakes W and is now leeward of W. L then comes up causing W to come up also. L passes in front of W.
This is legal, under rule 11 and then 17.1 provided that L's fastest route to the finish (this is a long distance race) is to come up as stated, right?
I could be wrong, but there is a friendly discussion I am having with someone about it and thought I would throw it out there. They made a point that the overtaking boat has no rightsat all in this situation- which I understand but it changes with overlap.

Yep. Once L has established overlap and given room and opportunity to W (as W has just become the give-way boat), then L can begin to assert her rights. Proper course applies in almost all instances following the overlap.

If I were the overtaking boat, I'd be looking for some seperation during the pass to minimize W's shadow and get clear as quick as possible. Passing close to leeward and at speed is risky - you can have rights and still get flipped on, run into, broken, etc. If I'm getting passed to leeward, especially on a reach, I'm looking to see what I'm dragging. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

ps - If it were your 'proper course' to come up during the pass, why didn't you roll them high instead? Safer.

Thanks JW, thats what I figured. It wasn't me though, and it was between a cat (L) and a tri (W). I agree, I would have gone above, unless I were running the spin in which case I might have had the willies about going above- especially if it were gusty.
I was somewhat defending a friend (L) and I didn't agree with W's opinion of it. Seemed simple to me but I haven't been around as long as W so I wanted to double check.

If the overlap was created to leeward from clear astern, leeward can sail its proper course.

The other aspect about this is that a boat clear ahead isn't allowed to sail below its proper course. Can't remember those rules clearly though. There's something about boat lengths from astern/leeward boats.

If the clear ahead boat was sailing so far below its proper course that the leeward boat had to round up significantly once an overlap was obtained, it sounds like ahead boat may've been breaking this rule.

Result of wind shadow when passing below, tghen need to head up to stay on "proper course".

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

17.2 Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she gybes.

Now Patrick, you've brought this out into public, insisting you were right, and you weren't EVEN THERE. So much for me trying to do a good deed for you and your friend. But then, no good deed goes unpunished.

We were not on a reach. We were HARD on the wind. As in, to weather, beating. I was pinching for all I was worth because I wanted to lay the bridge in one tack.

'Proper course?" There was no good reason for the cat to come below me, he was passing me just fine to my weather, him being on a UNIRIG and all. I wondered why he dropped beneath us at the time.

After cat mysteriously went beneath us, he had indeed been heading me up, and then with less than two of his, much less MY, boatlengths below, from slightly above my beam, WITHOUT HAIL, cut across my bows. It was a good thing I was just about pinching, because if I hadn't headed quickly, I'd have T-boned the cat.

Tell the whole story as it was told to you, not just how YOU want to tell it. Like I say, you weren't there. The man who WAS there didn't have a problem. The guy ACTUALLY DRIVING THE CAT WAS REAL NICE, let me make sure and state that for public consumption. The only reason Patrick is involved is because I made the mistake of asking him for the cat driver's contact info.

See, here's the thing. I'm not racing the cat, he knows it, so do I. Therefore, basic road rules come into play:

When two vessels are moving in the same direction, vessel passing is the give-way vessel and should keep out of the way of the vessel being passed. The vessel being passed is the stand-on vessel and must maintain its course and speed. If the stand-on vessel realizes that the course intended by the give-way vessel is not safe, it should sound the danger or doubt signal. (Like I had a chance.)

So, first: our friend didn't give me notice nor time to react. We were just on our toes because we could tell that our friend driving the cat was new at it.

Second: since we aren't racing each other, then basic rules of the road apply.

Third: It always is a real bad idea to pass anyone to leeward.

Which were the points I wanted to make to begin with. I'm sorry to involve everyone, this was supposed to have been a discussion between me and the cat driver.

I didn't put it on the forum to prove anything and I didn't do it to piss anyone off. It was also anonymous until you brought it up. I did it to answer a question I had regardless of the specifics of the situation.
I don't see how I am being a [censored] by asking a simple anonymous question about the situation on the forum.
As I said before, my understanding of the rules is not comprehensive- so I asked here. If I were 100% sure of my opinion I would have walked away and just let things be.

I can't speak to the specifics because I wasn't there, and I only needed clarification about one of your points. Clearly coming up quickly in the blind spot of any boat which requires the windward boat to come up quickly is a stupid jackass move that can get someone hurt. You were making the point to me that the overtaking boat has no rights even after there is overlap.. which isn't true.

An over taking boat has no rights until or unless they are two boat lengths to leeward at sometime while overlapped. An example if this could be an A Cat pointing much higher than a Hobie 16 (as an example) to be able to come from behind, get overlapped while still two boat lengths to leeward. If a boat becomes overlapped while passing and was not 2 boat lengths to leeward they can drive off to that two boat length distance to establish the rights.

They do have the right to sail their proper course, if the overlap is established from astern. If it is outside two lengths, then they have full luffing rights up to head to wind. One side note, before the start gun there is no proper course, and so any overlap, even from close astern gets full luffing rights, but then you have to fall back off to proper course after the gun...
But, like the guy said, he wasn't racing, so it's all moot point anyhow...

Thanks for the info...
If it were me I woudn't have done what was done and the person driving that cat couldn't care less who was or wasn't following the rules
HOWEVER... given the insanity that Boud came back with... I will hang with her at the start and luff her up head to wind as much and as often as possible
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
BTW... Boud... still want to say I am NOT right?


p.s. where is MauganN20/Tad these days?

Careful - you'll probably end up in stalled out and foul everyone again...

good point... I'll be extra careful
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />