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Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #117980
09/25/07 12:50 PM
09/25/07 12:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 805
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 805
Toronto, Ontario
Does anyone have any plans for a wing?

I guess this leaves the only "real" development classes as the C and the 18square. Maybe we should see a revitalization of the 18square class? Anyone got an old 18square they want to get rid of?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Wouter] #117981
09/25/07 12:55 PM
09/25/07 12:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Quote
The implicit value of the A's always was their willingness to try completely new stuff and make it work. Since 10 years they are losing their religion. I'm not sure that that is a good thing.


Agreed.

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Wouter] #117982
09/25/07 01:01 PM
09/25/07 01:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline OP
enthusiast
Hakan Frojdh  Offline OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Do you think 100+ boats at the Worlds is a bad thing?

/hakan

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #117983
09/25/07 01:15 PM
09/25/07 01:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Quote
Most A-class sails buy boats, the don't build them!


I think "most" is a strong word. There are now 6 DK17's - largely homebuilt, and Ian Lindhal new design has created quite a stir, I think that he's got a least 2 sailing, with a couple more planned.

This weekend at Hopatcong will be at least 2 homebuilt(Lindhal, mine) and 2 professionally built/custom boats (Cogan designed). There might even be more, older style Acats in Hopatcong. With the cost of a new Acat at over $20k, I think you'll see more and more homebuilt. My homebuilt came in at $11k.

2 weekends ago at Royaton, only one production boat raced (an XJ), the other 3 were either homebuilt (mine and a stressed ply, Flyer design) and one custom/professionally built boat.

Sorry to disagree with you Harkan, I'm a huge fan of your work with the spin on your Acat.

I do think you could build a wing mast for your Acat for about the same cost as a new sail and mast or less. Assuming you've got the desire and the skills to do it.

I dont think Ben's going to offer kits, or sell complete wing masts, at least thats the feedback I've gotten. You'd have to cowboy up and figure it out yourself.

If anybody needs me, I'll be downloading the latest version of autocad.

Bill

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #117984
09/25/07 01:20 PM
09/25/07 01:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Quote
Do you think 100+ boats at the Worlds is a bad thing?


Nope.

If you read my earlier post, I think that the wing mast will be banned and life will go on as we all know it. Hell, the wing might even be slower, you are all jumping to the conclusion that its automatically faster. The fact is that is heavier by probably 12kg, and if you capsize you are done for the day at least. The modern camber induced sails most of us are using are pretty efficient. I think its going to be interesting to see if its faster or not.

Dont get your panties too balled up, its not going to ruin the class.

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: bvining] #117985
09/25/07 01:57 PM
09/25/07 01:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
I'm just glad somebody (C class or Ben Hall) has the time and money to do the R+D. Maybe someday we will have some trickle-down into the other classes. Still waiting for someone to join two Moths together for a small foiling cat!

Last edited by Timbo; 09/25/07 01:58 PM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Wouter] #117986
09/25/07 02:08 PM
09/25/07 02:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
tell me again why we decided not to allow solid wings in the F16 class?

I think all classes are becoming more and more conservative.. Hell the F16 class recently tried to ban movable rudder finlets and we have banned foils..

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Stewart] #117987
09/25/07 02:30 PM
09/25/07 02:30 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Stewart, nobody stops you from building a wing and putting it on your F-16. I bet most F-16 sailors would love to go up against your winged F-16, I know I would. The only "but" in the equation is that you would not be allowed to race (or be scored, if evaluation was wanted) in F-16 class events. Open events would be just that, open.
The F-16 class is a controlled development class. Intention is to control the arms race so cost is kept down. If the A-class goes ballistic with affordable and durable wings, we could always discuss the matter again. Nobody is against development, just control the costs of playing the game.
The movable rudder finlet ban discussion was fronted by a very small group.. There will always be such discussion, unless you sail in a strictly one design class.


Timbo, I agree full heartedly with you. Having individuals spending time and money on experiments like this is fantastic.

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Stewart] #117988
09/25/07 02:32 PM
09/25/07 02:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Don_Atchley Offline
enthusiast
Don_Atchley  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
I want to sail in a developmental class too.

Just don't change anything.


Hobie Tiger 2003
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Don_Atchley] #117989
09/25/07 03:28 PM
09/25/07 03:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Now that's funny! All you non-conformists, form a line over here... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
#777
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Timbo] #117990
09/25/07 03:48 PM
09/25/07 03:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
claus Offline
member
claus  Offline
member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
I really do see a difference in between a foil and a wing. A foil renders the whole measurement system of a cat invalid as the submerged part of the boat is completely different. Whereas a wing is in theory just the most efficient sail. I don't see any reason for a development class to abandon such a direction, if it shows valuable. Even if it costs say 20.000$. That's what development classes are for. Wanna sail in a "cheap" class? Don't go for a development class. Maybe A-class isn't development any more??

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Timbo] #117991
09/25/07 04:41 PM
09/25/07 04:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

Still waiting for someone to join two Moths together for a small foiling cat!



Tim, it is really NOT that simple. The moth foiler has a control system implemented (a crude one) to help maintain its altitude, but it still needs skipper contral actions to adjust the platform foiling to different speeds and angles of sailing (the throttle on the tiller extension). This is challenging but with practice the skipper are able to control the craft.

Now if you slashed two moths together you would have 2 independently operating control systems with two throttles (one for each rudder T-foil). But best of all is that you have just increased your dynamics by a factor of two complicated by the fact that both control systems will interact with each other. This is much more challenging to design right and to handle right.

It is much better to just get the Hobie trifoiler or Rave and get flying.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Stewart] #117992
09/25/07 04:53 PM
09/25/07 04:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

tell me again why we decided not to allow solid wings in the F16 class?


Because the F16's aren't a development class. Never claimed to be either.

Our goal was to maximize versatility and performance using conventional and/or proven technology.


Quote

Hell the F16 class recently tried to ban movable rudder finlets and we have banned foils..


Under my tenure as chairman the F16 class allowed all kinds of foils and I'm still of that conviction. Sadly the recent changes were inspired by the scare found among the A-cat class sailors. I think that the F16 class may decide to ban complex system (keep sailing the boats accessible) but this certainly doesn't include banning the use of simple systems like bruce foils. If T-foils can be made dynamically through a simple and inexpensive way then I'm all for including it in the F16 class.

Currently I'm no longer an F16 official and I'm just a voting member.


Quote

I think all classes are becoming more and more conservative..


It also has alot to do with people simply not understanding the principles involved and the fact that more complex or newer systems are seldomly faster in a race. The C-class championship of yesterweekend proofs this point again. The foiler got soundly beaten. But the class members still want to vent their insecurity. It takes a careful balancing act by the chairman to keep a class on the right path. Not all chairmans are succesful at this.


Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 09/25/07 04:58 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #117993
09/25/07 04:56 PM
09/25/07 04:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

The only "but" in the equation is that you would not be allowed to race (or be scored, if evaluation was wanted) in F-16 class events.


Actually there is a provision in the F16 class rules that allows such an experimental craft to be scored !

I included that intentionally together with the more strict nature of the class rules so that the class would have tools to fight a mass scare among the f16 sailors but still allow the class to continiously orientate on new improvements that could later be included in the F16 setup when proven to be effective, accessible and relatively inexpensive.

It all comes down to the Governing council of the moment in how and if they put these given tools in use.

But back to topic now, the new A-cat with a wing sail ! I must say that it does interest me enormously and I'm looking forward to spectating the A-cat worlds again since the wave piercer hull was introduced (10 years?).

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 09/25/07 05:02 PM.
Re: A-class with wing sail!? *DELETED* [Re: Wouter] #117994
09/25/07 05:10 PM
09/25/07 05:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Post deleted by Timbo


Blade F16
#777
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Timbo] #117995
09/25/07 05:52 PM
09/25/07 05:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
H
HobieZealot Offline
member
HobieZealot  Offline
member
H
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
Did this just turn into an F16 thread?

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: HobieZealot] #117996
09/25/07 07:50 PM
09/25/07 07:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 244
Central Coast NSW Australia
TonyJ Offline
enthusiast
TonyJ  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 244
Central Coast NSW Australia
The company I work for supplies composites to the marine industry. When I saw the A rig I was impressed and e mailed through work.

This was 1 reply.

Regards Tony

Attached Files
119480-nacra-wing.jpg (214 downloads)

Teach them how to think. Not what to think. Aus Blade 002
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: TonyJ] #117997
09/25/07 08:15 PM
09/25/07 08:15 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
addict
taipanfc  Offline
addict
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
Is that the 18sq wing that used to sit in Forbes' shed for a long time? (or still does)

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: taipanfc] #117998
09/25/07 08:49 PM
09/25/07 08:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 244
Central Coast NSW Australia
TonyJ Offline
enthusiast
TonyJ  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 244
Central Coast NSW Australia
It didn't come with any explanation, James.

Just the photo.


Teach them how to think. Not what to think. Aus Blade 002
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: HobieZealot] #117999
09/25/07 09:07 PM
09/25/07 09:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1
B
Benjhall Offline
stranger
Benjhall  Offline
stranger
B
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1
OK guys here are the facts to set the record straight.
As Bill V said the boat in the pic is a brand new Peter Cogan design. The molds were built at Vector Works who also built the hulls. I finished the hulls in Bristol and have been sailing this summer with the standard rig.
The wing I built was inspired by watching Steve Clark and Fred Eaton race last fall in Newport. Steve convinced me that it was really not that hard to build, so I decided to give it a shot. Dave Hubbard designed the wing and Steve and Henry Elliot were a big help along the way. I assembled most of the parts in my basement until I needed a bit more room to assemble all the elements.
The length of the wing is only 29 ft (not 40ft). The top two elements are a little over 9 ft and easily removable to facilitate transportation. The wing stores in a 21 ft trailer box X 6 ft wide X 2 ft high. The boat sits upside down on top of the box. I tow the trailer with a Dodge minivan (not a semi).
The weight of the wing is 52 lbs. The weight of all the stuff (mast, sail, battens, mainsheet system,boom and traveler) I took off my boat weighs 46 lbs. (that's 2.72 kg delta). Granted the CG is higher but no way 12kg heavier. As far as righting after a capsize, assuming rig is in one piece, will be more difficult but still possible as this rig is about 5 lbs (min) lighter than the old aluminum mast/dacron sail combo which we were able to right. The all up the boat should still be min but without corrector weight.
The cost of the materials in the wing were right around $2000 (1400 Euro at today's rate). A total of around 300 hours (about the same as one of the A Cats I built from scratch) went into building the wing. If I had to build it again the time would be about 100 hrs less.
The rig can go from trailer to ready to sail in 30 minutes. Derigging the other day from rig up to in the box was 12 minutes. It does require a helper (wing sherpa) to lift the lower element out of the box and onto saw horses and also to put it into the box after derigging. The boat is flipped on its side, the wing is plugged into the step, the rigging is attached, the top two elements are installed, the boat is righted, control are rigged and you are ready to sail. Much easier than the C Class program because everything is so light.
The design of the wing is a simplified version of the Cogito wing. It has two elements (#1 forward/#2 flap) while Cogito has three. The wing is slotted and both the #1 and #2 have twist control. The controls are simpler than the standard rig. Wing has 4 controls: 1/ mainsheet 2:1 2/ camber, this controls flap angle from 0 to 35 degrees 3/ #1 twist 4/ #2 twist.
This is compared to the standard rig: 1/traveler 2/mainsheet 8:1 3/outhaul 4/ downhaul 16:1 5/ rotation 6/over rotation 7/ diamond tension
Now for the fun part...how to sail this thing. I have now sailed 6 times in winds from 4 kts to 22 kts. So far nothing has broken and has proved to be quite easy to sail. All the controls can be adjusted from the wire. Up wind, both twist controls centered (no twist), the camber is set at about 15 degrees, so all you do is adjust the 2:1 mainsheet to optimize the angle of attack. in big breeze upwind it is very easy to depower by simply easing sheet a bit.
Down wind the flap angle is increased to 35 degrees and twist is induced in both elements by easing off the twist control. Jibing and tacking are made a ton easier because there is no boom to crawl under, not to mention a traveler and end boom sheeting to manuveur the tiller extension around.
The big question....is it fast???? So far in boat on boat testing the results have been mixed. There are some conditions that do not suit the wing. One is mild thing sailing. Unlike the C Cats, we cannot trap to leeward to fly the hull in any condition ( Hakan, I know your leeward sitting technique may help but the risk of capsize is not worth it and the rig did not cost $50,000)
In light to medium upwind conditions it seems good and wild thing also good. No test yet in big breeze up or down against anyone. And as someone mentioned the current A cat rig is very highly developed (our masts have gone through over 50 laminate revisions in the last 10 years and I am sure the sailmakers have many more designs) so the difference in the wing performance so far has been small. Time will tell and the ultimate test will be the Worlds and Bill, I am sure there will not be 99 boats on the beach in protest. Steve Clark said the wing will do two things...create alot attention and piss some people off. Well he was right. I did not make this to do either but it is what it is (as coach Bill B says). I enjoyed working with all the "wing nuts" in building this wing, understanding how and why it works, and finally learning how to sail it. The class will ultimately decide the fate of this project and I am not surprised at the myriad of reactions to the project. I have been a huge supporter of the class since 1996 and have owned 18 A cats in that time so it not my intention to ruin the class. The wing has been legal in the class since its inception in the 60's and a solid wing was first tried by Danny Goritski (the wizard of Lake Hopatcong) in 1985 and it was not banned then.
While everybody else was feverously working on new hull shapes, new blades, new sail designs, new battens (why because we can in this class and no one is doing this to go slower) I decided to go for the wing. It is really like building a big model airplane and as a kid I did alot of that (maybe it was the glue). I have always enjoyed fast boats, cars and motorcycles...A Cats are the ultimate speed machine on the water. I will post some nice sailing shots soon.

Ben Hall A Cat USA 99

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