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fx-one nationals ???????? #119523
10/07/07 09:15 PM
10/07/07 09:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2
H
hobiedon Offline OP
stranger
hobiedon  Offline OP
stranger
H

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2
How come hobie doesnt have a national event for the fx-one?
They still have a national event for the 17 which isn't even produced anymore.
I just feel that a national would help provide interest in the fx? Almost forgot Im talking about the U.S.

Last edited by hobiedon; 10/07/07 09:19 PM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: fx-one nationals ???????? [Re: hobiedon] #119524
10/07/07 09:30 PM
10/07/07 09:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Don_Atchley Offline
enthusiast
Don_Atchley  Offline
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Seattle,Wa
This topic is being discussed on the Hobie Forum.

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=8014

You're welcome to chime in over there.


Hobie Tiger 2003
Re: fx-one nationals ???????? [Re: hobiedon] #119525
10/08/07 06:59 AM
10/08/07 06:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Northfield Mn
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


I'm boatless.
Re: fx-one nationals ???????? [Re: hobiedon] #119526
10/08/07 07:17 AM
10/08/07 07:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Hobie Cat Company does not organize events in North America. The Hobie Class Association does. Big difference.

Quote
How come hobie doesnt have a national event for the fx-one?

The short answer is that they haven't reached "critical mass" yet. There are only 6 HCA members that own FX-1's. The HCA has said that they will give the FX-1's a start at a North Americans when they can get at least 5 boats committed to attending. That hasn't happened yet.

Quote
They still have a national event for the 17 which isn't even produced anymore.

The H-17 still draws 30 - 35 boats to its North Americans. Even though the boats aren't being built anymore, there are a lot of them out there. I just got back from a weekend regatta where there were 8 H-17's.

Quote
I just feel that a national would help provide interest in the fx?

Both Karl and Don A. are working to promote the FX-1 class. Let them know if you can committ to attending the H-17 / H-18 / Tiger North Americans in Harrison, BC next August. If the FX-1's reach that magic number (5) then they'll get a start.

Re: fx-one nationals ???????? [Re: mbounds] #119527
10/11/07 06:42 PM
10/11/07 06:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 118
Sail Sand Point, Seattle
mike220 Offline
member
mike220  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 118
Sail Sand Point, Seattle
Hobiedon are you a FX One sailor now? Where do you sail out of?
I am also a FX sailor and along with Karl and Don are interested in the future of the FX Class.
Let us know if you are interested in this boat and the class. It is our goal to build the FX Class to suficient numbers that the class grows and we are having nationals like the other classes do.
Thanks for the interest.
PM me and I can Email you back if you like.


Mike Hensel
Hobie Tiger
Re: fx-one nationals ???????? [Re: mbounds] #119528
10/11/07 07:28 PM
10/11/07 07:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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rhodysail  Offline
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Branford, CT
Quote
If the FX-1's reach that magic number (5) then they'll get a start.


There is no magic number.

formula for the magic number [Re: rhodysail] #119529
10/11/07 08:23 PM
10/11/07 08:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Don_Atchley Offline
enthusiast
Don_Atchley  Offline
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Seattle,Wa
The formula for the magic number is derived straightforwardly as follows. As before, at some particular point in the season let team "A" have WA wins and LA losses. Suppose that at some later time, team "A" has wA additional wins and lA additional losses, and define similarly WB, LB, wB, lB for team "B". The total number of wins that team "B" needs to make up is thus given by (WA + wA) &#8722; (WB + wB). Team "A" clinches when this number exceeds the number of games team "B" has remaining, since at that point team "B" cannot make up the deficit even if team "A" fails to win any more games. If there are a total of G games in the season, then the number of games remaining for team "B" is given by G &#8722; (WB + wB + LB + lB). Thus the condition for team "A" to clinch is that (WA + wA) &#8722; (WB + wB) = 1 + G &#8722; (WB + wB + LB + lB). Canceling the common terms, we obtain wA + lB = G + 1 &#8722; WA &#8722; LB, which establishes the magic number formula. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
[color:"blue"]Straight from Wikepedia [/color]

See, it's not that confusing.


Hobie Tiger 2003
Re: formula for the magic number [Re: Don_Atchley] #119530
10/11/07 09:59 PM
10/11/07 09:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
We will eventually have an FXone nationals. That I have no doubt, a boat as cool as this will catch on, and when it does I think it will do so fairly quickly. I think that it has been lying dormant for so long just because nobody wants to be first. Even in my division there are at least two people that will be making an FXone their next boat. No more crew issues, its faster than a H20, (I'm told it'll beat out a Tiger), you can run wings and be class legal. It also holds two people very well. Throw jib and the 2nd trap on it and you're set for running two up.

Another issue with this boat is that at the moment there isn't a large number of used boats available. It's tough to justify buying a brand new boat when there isn't anyone to race with, but once a few people start picking them up and more and more used boats become available this will become a thing of the past.

Re: formula for the magic number [Re: Karl_Brogger] #119531
10/11/07 11:09 PM
10/11/07 11:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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St Petersburg FL
I would love to see one of these boats up close. Where are the majority of them located? Are they uni rigs with spinnaker?

I assume this is the Hobie 17 replacement?

Re: formula for the magic number [Re: Karl_Brogger] #119532
10/12/07 04:20 AM
10/12/07 04:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

... a boat as cool as this will catch on ...



Well yeah, the F16's proved as much.

But the real point I want to make here is :


Quote

I think that it has been lying dormant for so long just because nobody wants to be first. Even in my division there are at least two people that will be making an FXone their next boat



I also believe that it has now an uphill struggle to fight against the I-17's (F17's) and F16's. Mostly the latter. This should not be underestimated. It is not like the FX-one is the "first boat" into this segment of the catamaran scene/market. It certain is not the most succesful one to date. People will brush off my next comment as biased, but to me it even appears that the European FX-one class/numbers is in decline. Their European championships at Cangas (Spain) a few years ago seems to be have been their high point. It think Matt Miller provided the attendence numbers for these European Championships in the thread about this on the hobie forums.


Quote

Another issue with this boat is that at the moment there isn't a large number of used boats available. It's tough to justify buying a brand new boat when there isn't anyone to race with, but once a few people start picking them up and more and more used boats become available this will become a thing of the past.



I can comment on this as I've "done it", but launching a design and class is an increadibally large amount of work and invested time. During this phase I also found that the secondhand market issue and small fleet sizes are things that stay "issues" till much after the class has reached critical mass on other accounts. You can't dependent on solving these to suddenly grow the class to critical mass. It is the other way around you have to grow the class the critical mass on other points in order to solve these issues. One explanation is that people always want cheaper second hand boats, this basically means that they have to be 5 years of age or older and still look well. Somehow you have to cover those 5 years and keep the miniscule class alive during that time without any real second hand offers or large regatta attendences.

You have to be able to get the first few people who pick these boats up to be really active and visible in sailing these. It is a dirty rotten job but somebody has to make that happen time and time again. Just saying :"hey, ..." over beer usually won't do it.

You guys got a long way to go and just announcing to hold a US nationals hoping all 5 widely spread out boats present in the US will come, simply won't do it.

I remember we had that many boats in Florida alone once and how much work it was to get them all to attend any local regatta at the same time.

You have got to learn to crawl before you can learn to walk and you have to learn how to walk before you can learn to run. It is a long proces and it is my opinion that you are started at the wrong end of this process (learning to run)

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/12/07 04:22 AM.
Re: formula for the magic number [Re: Karl_Brogger] #119533
10/12/07 08:26 AM
10/12/07 08:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
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Posts: 1,187
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Quote
its faster than a H20, (I'm told it'll beat out a Tiger)

Aww Karl, now you've done it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> the boat's cool and all, wish you the best of luck in growing a fleet, (I may be there myself someday) but where you coming up with this propoganda?


John H16, H14
Re: formula for the magic number [Re: _flatlander_] #119534
10/12/07 09:08 AM
10/12/07 09:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Quote
Quote
its faster than a H20, (I'm told it'll beat out a Tiger)

Aww Karl, now you've done it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> the boat's cool and all, wish you the best of luck in growing a fleet, (I may be there myself someday) but where you coming up with this propoganda?


Karl: I think the "portsmout yardstick" is reasonalby accurate. You might want to give it a look.

http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/tables06/tables06mh.asp

The anomalies occurr when you have Bob Curry on his N-17 racing against me. But, I'm just a fad anyway.

Last edited by Tikipete; 10/12/07 09:09 AM.
Re: formula for the magic number [Re: fin.] #119535
10/12/07 11:32 AM
10/12/07 11:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
The continent is HUGE.... Its tough to get people to travel coast to coast for a North Americans.

The F18's are the newest class on the block to get a true nationals going and get racers from both coasts.

So, creative minds might say... single handed boat with spin..

Hmmm... F16, F17 FX1.. Why not start at the regional level and see if you can get some racing going first.

So, if the F17 is strong in Ohio and Michigan and the F16 is strong in the South East... How about a regatta ... Oh... say Spring Fever... a 3 day event in the middle... Sell it as a championship.... Award beer for the overall score on Portsmouth.. and then Score your one design fleet for the Spring Fever trophies... If the F16's got critical mass with the F17's going… ... I bet you could get the 2 or 3 FX1's out of Sandy Hook, NJ as well....

People like the boat they like…. IMO it is very rare that you convince them to sell theirs and buy yours… better to just go level racing IMO.


Last point. Separate nationals for boats that should race each other also have a down side.

The Tiger Nationals cratered at St Francis YC a few years ago while the F18 nationals were strong that year. This year they have a representative NA’s because there is NO separate builder championship.

In O8, they will try once again to hold Tiger NAs in the North West and a F18 nationals somewhere. I can't see how one regatta doesn't hurt the other. People only have x amount of time and money... Of course they go to the event that's close to home... Moreover, since many of the racers race other platforms... EG Hobie 16's...or Nacra 20s... these events also cut your attendance.

You really need about 30 boats min to make a week long event work financially and with volunteers.

So, To me, the big picture is how do you create “must attend” events that have national participation?

The national schedule of events is an essential first step to this goal… Building Regional championship “must attend” events are the next (Think about the Mad Catter for Hobie 16’s)

The powers that run sailing (MNA) also notice what we do.... this notion of droping cats because we don't have a development program doesn't just come out of the blue.... They notice things like the Tiger's stiffing St Francis Yacht Club. Nationals that aren't really nationals etc etc.

It IS IN OUR BEST INTEREST to get organized and build a coherent program at all levels. One class doing a good job doesn't appear to be enough in this day and age.

So, we do have to manage the continent of events... Stuff JUST happening .... won't serve our interest in the long run.

Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: formula for the magic number [Re: Wouter] #119536
10/12/07 05:16 PM
10/12/07 05:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 118
Sail Sand Point, Seattle
mike220 Offline
member
mike220  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 118
Sail Sand Point, Seattle
Here are a couple of FX pics,light winds.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
The boat sails great and I weigh about 210. Could only be better if I lost a few pounds. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by mike220; 10/12/07 05:22 PM.
Re: formula for the magic number [Re: fin.] #119537
10/12/07 08:16 PM
10/12/07 08:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Northfield Mn
When I first starting asking around here about the FXone Wouter said that the USPN for this boat is B.S. After sailing the boat I know this to be true.

I'm a hack on a sailboat. A lousy tacticion, (and speller), I'm not real good at setup. I'm semi ok at triming a sail. Oh, and I'm a technical dunce. Get the idea? The last regatta I went to I only hoisted the spin on 1 1/2 races. The second race I lost my tack line. The first race I finished mid-pack with the 20's. Most of these guys are waaaay better sailors than I am. I had two shite downwind legs, and ok upwind legs. I wasn't footing enough, and I was going slower than hell. It is faster than a H20 around a course, I don't give a damn what US sailing says. As far as the Tiger comment, that is what I was told by another FXone sailor who crucified some Tigers in a distance race. Maybe the Tiger sailors were down on my level of skill. I don't know; hence the "I've been told" portion of that sentence. I can't keep up with a H20 going to weather, but when I scrape the sand out of my man-gina and drive the boat hard downwind it's all over.


I'm boatless.
Re: formula for the magic number [Re: mike220] #119538
10/12/07 08:30 PM
10/12/07 08:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Mike- I just noticed, your boat doesn't have any graphics. Peel em' off? Moving your weight way forward helps a bunch going uphill doesn't it?

Re: formula for the magic number [Re: Karl_Brogger] #119539
10/12/07 08:42 PM
10/12/07 08:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Northfield Mn
Look who's ahead of some 20's at A

Attached Files
121341-C.L.Reg165.jpg (117 downloads)
Last edited by Karl_Brogger; 10/12/07 08:45 PM.
Re: formula for the magic number [Re: Karl_Brogger] #119540
10/12/07 08:48 PM
10/12/07 08:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Look who's about to get his doors blown off.

Attached Files
121342-C.L.Reg168.jpg (112 downloads)

I'm boatless.
Re: formula for the magic number [Re: Karl_Brogger] #119541
10/13/07 04:28 AM
10/13/07 04:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

When I first starting asking around here about the FXone Wouter said that the USPN for this boat is B.S. After sailing the boat I know this to be true.



There are more things people simply don't believe when I say them but then find out its true years later !

One would think that after a while people would start to recognize a trend.

Anyway, to the other statements of your post.

H20's are the first stage on proving the speed of a spinnaker cat design. These boats are not particulary fast nor particulary slow. I have no double that the spinnaker on the 1-up FX-one will make that boat faster around the course. The A's, F18's and F20's (I-20's) are the next steps up however and harder to beat.

Also in the picture it appears you are running with a lot of mast rake. I used to start that way on the FX-one I sailed extensively. That is till the owner allowed me to retune the rig. I found that the mast could be placed on the boat relatively straight. It will tack alot better as it will come out of one alot more easily and you get some more power. The only drawback is that in a big blow the bows will tip in a little easier but I still I found the boat to sail nicer and perform better with the mast raked as any modern racing cat, i.e. just aft of the vertical. You may want to try this. Don't listen to much to the feel of your rudders as the FX-one rudder etup I sailed with was well balanced and hid any excesssive weather helm really well.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: formula for the magic number [Re: Karl_Brogger] #119542
10/15/07 08:54 AM
10/15/07 08:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
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Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
Quote
Look who's ahead of some 20's at A

First trip to weather is not a whole race. Been started with the 20 fleet on the 18 and beat a healthy bunch of them first trip to A.

This has to be Sunday (water is flat). Is this the race where Paul (eventual regatta winner) had his brain fart/throw out? And Jake there is doing real good for his first year on the 20 (mom/crew looks really cold)


John H16, H14
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