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Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: mbounds] #123079
12/17/07 03:12 PM
12/17/07 03:12 PM
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Quote
I am assuming by 10mil you mean 10 millimeters (mm)

A "mil" is 1000th of an inch. 10mils is a very tight tolerance (100th of an inch).


Erm.......

25.4mm = one inch

mm = mil in usual decimal speak, so we are talking about .39 inches.


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Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: scooby_simon] #123080
12/17/07 03:52 PM
12/17/07 03:52 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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The tightening up of the class rules were ordered by ISAF prior to Greece. (If you want to remain Olympic... do this...) The standard Alu stick could measure in under these rules BUT the properties of each stick were different. Marstrom was selling 2 to 3 times as many masts as boats... (because of breakage and picking the best stick) At any rate... A very expensive mast program ... (rumored at 100K plus) was undertaken by three teams/MNA's for Greece to gain an advantage. Coupled with the Cuben Fiber cloth coop/fiasco ...(three teams had exclusive rights to the stuff before the Olympics) ISAF had a big problem with Tornado's and the spirit of fair competition.....

So, while the class met the letter of the rule, in ISAF's view the class tolerated BS that undercut their benchmark... "fair competition". Once again the class had to respond. So, Grandfield led the class to the solution of the One design carbon mast with the Alu sticks grandfathered in. He had the cuben fiber material banned from use in the class AND in the F18 class… It was 4 times the price as every other material out there.

Some high profile sailors in the class were furious and mounted a vocal campaign to oust him for all of the changes he got through the class and ISAF.. Grandfield did a good job of not airing all of this dirty laundry in front of the world and prevailed on the equipment changes.

Again, ISAF insisted on the really tight tolerances for the mast and Marstrom was chosen with a two year window of exclusivity to recover his costs and to implement the mast certification program.

Remember... ISAF's stated goal was to have all Olympic equipment (laser's on up) certified this way at the factory but with an independent measurer. ... I guess ISAF thought that the system could be gamed by trying to measure these highly technical things on the beach somewhere. By and large, Marstrom and has been able to deliver on the masts. Of course there are still differences between sticks and the elite programs have to sort through them. I think it requires extreme abuse to break a mast these days... (eg pogo sticking the mast on a hard coral bottom in 20 knots with 4 to 5 foot waves will in fact break one).

So, From ISAF's point of view... the Tornado Class has not really been ahead of the curve with respect to assuring ISAF that all countries had a fair and equal shot at gold. In fact... they are probably convinced that the last Tornado Olympics were a bit crooked.

How much of a factor was the internal Tornado Class BS.... in the voting... now that is a good question!

So... when you hear the rumor.. ... "It was Grandfield's nasty behavior etc etc... realize... he has been stamping out fires for years (from all sides). Coupled with several personal legal matches with the USA duo of Bodie and Breener on US Team selection, conduct of the OCR, and many many other issues. The real story is more complex then we realize.

IMO, if Granfield is holding the bag... the pro sailors are responsible for filling that bag with enough CRAP to smell it up at ISAF.

Now... If you think Tornado Measurement is a bit complex... consider the Yingling... Again... to make sure things are fair... ISAF has to deal with a monohull shape. The Yingling measurements require this laser scanning device which costs about a $ 100 K . It scans the hull and validates the hull measurement and insures that it matches the proscribed template in the computer. Since we had Two Yingling teams... (and now only one). It was a bit expensive to get your boat measured... All of these rules have to be followed and US Sailing is responsible for assuring compliance. (FYI, All of these facts were spelled out at the US Sailing One Design symposium in Annapolis a few years ago.)


Oh and before you throw your hands up and blame pro Tornado sailors... Just to remind everyone how extensive this fairness issue goes at ISAF . ... consider the recent DSQ of the Brazilian Hobie 16 team at the last Pan AM games. They were fooling around with the Hobie 16… ( I think their boat was a bit wider and sail went a little higher). Catching him at the very end of the regatta and tossing the first place team... could not be much comfort to ISAF.

I think it is fair to say that ISAF does not like to have cheating determine the outcome of the elite levels of competition... IMO, Multihulls are not doing so well at convincing the world that we are all playing by the rules. Sigh....

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 12/17/07 05:14 PM.

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Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: mbounds] #123081
12/17/07 04:49 PM
12/17/07 04:49 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

A "mil" is 1000th of an inch. 10mils is a very tight tolerance (100th of an inch).



An alternative conclusion is that a mm ("mil") is NOT a 1000th of an inch.

And why would it be ? The milimeter is part of the metric SI system of units. An inch is not "metric" in any way or form.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Mark Schneider] #123082
12/17/07 05:13 PM
12/17/07 05:13 PM
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I think the problem is actually the other way around.

Some people perceive everything to be cheating, they are so insecure or uneducated, that they feel they need a 100K laser apparatus to check a hull for compliance.

Basically, so what if a hull is 5 mm out of line ?

In the F18 class we see designs fight for 1st place (sailed by olympic sailors) that differ a rediculously amount more then "just 5 mm".

The way I see it is that alot of officials are just what they are : "officials". This kind of person is better known as a politician. They are not engineers or 99% of them don't harbour a single creative thought that goes outside of the official stated policy.

For years now, politico's (officials) have been inventing (perceived) cheat after cheat. They are also the kind that think that having a 60 kg skipper race against a 80 kg skipper on a strict one-design Laser is fair !

They will go to extreme lengths to make every single boat the same, down to the amounts that only a laser can measured (several microns) and then totally ignore a 20 kg weight difference ! Not to mention the fact that the different sail lofts making One-Design laser sails produce OD sails that differ enough for an elite team to test tens of sails and allotting different sails to different grading events depending on the expected conditions.

It is time for the politico's to understand that :

a) One-Design doesn't really exist
b) Doesn't create additional fairness in racing NON OD crews.
c) A couple of mm here and there DOESN'T affect performance in any measureable way.


I also find it interesting that it is actually cheaper to have a new die made for an alu Tornado mast and have 40 masts produced then to buy an Carbon OD mast from Marstrom.

In that batch of 40 masts you surely find 1 to 3 masts that are of your liking. That is the result of basic probability theory. It is actually the way large manufacturers "make" highly accurate interlocking products these years. They make both components using rather inaccurate means and then just match accurately fitting pairs from the larger pool. Probability theorie proofs that for large enough pools you'll always find perfectly matching pairs. This way of producing, with the same high accurate results, is actually cheaper then accurately producing the parts.

If people or an organisation can be said to be way behind the curve then it is the politico's (officials) and organisations like ISAF. They are about as progressive as the Catholic Church. Remember who enforced the "Earth is flat" and "anti-evolution" the longest ? Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary ?

With respect to anti-evolution theorie supporters, ask them to explain how large numbers of modern bateria have become resistant to penicillin, when they were not 50 years ago ?

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 12/17/07 05:19 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Wouter] #123083
12/17/07 05:50 PM
12/17/07 05:50 PM
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Reno NV
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Quote


Quote

A "mil" is 1000th of an inch. 10mils is a very tight tolerance (100th of an inch).



An alternative conclusion is that a mm ("mil") is NOT a 1000th of an inch.

And why would it be ? The milimeter is part of the metric SI system of units. An inch is not "metric" in any way or form.

Wouter


I run into this problem a lot at work. In the US, a mil is 0.001 inch. Outside of the US, "mil" is common slang for a millimeter. Fortunately the difference is big enough that it is generally obvious which one you are talking about.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: windswept] #123084
12/17/07 06:24 PM
12/17/07 06:24 PM
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Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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One design was never meant to be SMOD.. Remembering 10 mm is tight for a stressed ply hull build.. Ok today with cnc machining 0.01 mm tolerances could be applied to professional builds. Even without a single first plug.

Saying that SMOD boats are "apparently" different, with some claiming one factory or another is better across a SMOD class.. Even one colour from the "it" factory is better..

What is funny is watching an elite sailor/crew going through racks of "apparently" identical boats weighing and measuring every boat to find the "one".. This boat then lasts X regattas before the "one" is relegated to "soft" and the new "one" is required..

Finally when its all said and done, it seems the closer the design, the closer the crew weights/heights are at the top level.. When one looks at the more "open" rules classes the variation in crew weights at the pointy end seems far greater.. However that is just my perception... But its perhaps worth thinking about not seeking a SMOD/one design for the Olympic class......

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Stewart] #123085
12/18/07 02:30 PM
12/18/07 02:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
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New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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yes! I meant mm.


Tom Siders
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Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: windswept] #123086
12/18/07 02:33 PM
12/18/07 02:33 PM
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New Hampshire, USA
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I built 2 tortured ply T's and am building a single new hull right now. Both measured in with no problem. My bigger concern was the diagonal measurement once the beams were laid in.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: windswept] #123087
12/18/07 10:28 PM
12/18/07 10:28 PM
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Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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cool..
good luck with the new build..

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Stewart] #123088
12/19/07 11:05 AM
12/19/07 11:05 AM
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What I have noticed is that whilst everyone has hated the idea of perception of costs noone has dislike d the idea of the long distance race

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: stuartoffer] #123089
12/19/07 01:34 PM
12/19/07 01:34 PM
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Letter from ISAF President concerning Olympic Selection. This is in pdf format.

Attached Files
Last edited by windswept; 12/19/07 01:34 PM.

Tom Siders
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Tornado US775
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Wouter] #123090
12/19/07 02:34 PM
12/19/07 02:34 PM
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Quote


Quote

A "mil" is 1000th of an inch. 10mils is a very tight tolerance (100th of an inch).



An alternative conclusion is that a mm ("mil") is NOT a 1000th of an inch.

And why would it be ? The milimeter is part of the metric SI system of units. An inch is not "metric" in any way or form.

Wouter


The Inch is defined as 25.4mm. So I guess is Metric in some way or form.

Oh, and mil is more commonly used as 0.001 of an inch than as an alternative convention for mm.

Chris.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: windswept] #123091
12/19/07 07:36 PM
12/19/07 07:36 PM
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Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
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Interesting read...sounds like they still don't get the fact that they've dropped the most exciting class just to keep the keel boats!

Also funny that one of the arguments to keep the keel boat was because most of the big names sail them. They forgot to mention that many of the big names don't bother with Olympic campaigns, probably because of the ISAF crap they have to put up with!

PS. I cringe everytime someone uses the word mil at work. Get with the metric times, it is a millimeter!

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: flumpmaster] #123092
12/19/07 08:12 PM
12/19/07 08:12 PM
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Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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"mil" is only 1/1000 of an inch in USA. No other country as far as I know still uses "inches"
So a "mil"in most other jurisdictions is a mm...

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Stewart] #123093
12/20/07 01:33 AM
12/20/07 01:33 AM
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mls is of course^ millilite^rs

5mls is a te^aspoon

and yes my ke^yboard doe^s se^e^m to have^ a fe^w issue^s with the^ le^tte^r e^


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
An impractical proposal (and an opinion!) [Re: erice] #123094
12/20/07 02:26 PM
12/20/07 02:26 PM
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If you want to find the best Olympic sailor(s), have each and every Olympic sailor sail a series of youth boats use a point system to determine the best sailor, and sailing teams. No more stoking egos and steering agendas, (and the fatasses would disappear!). I’d pay really good money to see a Yngling or Star ‘Ballast’ crew member in a Laser, Finn or Catamaran in 15 knots up. Yep, this is not too practical, but might work to solve the woes of the sport. Such groups would have to practice as a team on a fleet boats, and the process would detach the real athletes from rich club guys that ‘deserve’ Olympic status as a result of money.

Either ISAF are driving agendas, or, the process/the meeting in Spain is/was fatally flawed-plain and simple. Either our ISAF reps dropped the ball/showed weakness through lack of assertiveness, or they did not want the boat. I agree with Wouter. Implying that the blame should be equally shared by catsailors is baloney. By unilateral action, the Olympic sailing committee of the ISAF firmly established that they will make decisions by fiat, ignoring input, in support of nationalistic team oriented agendas. (I am nobody, but I saw this and wrote ISAF to this effect prior to Spain. The reply was that all groups would be represented-now totally disingenuous in light of what happened.) To parade that the actions were the result of some noble effort to 'put out fires' disguises or even lends credence to the notion of elitist back room deals. Further, a good way to savage an unpopular idea is have it represented by non-communicative incompetents in the forum, as it opens the door for the ‘Agenda’.

In this case, the result the spirit and underpinnings of Olympic sailing were fully undermined by the process. I think also that the ISAF has set a stage for sailing disappearing outright from the Olympics in the future. Perverse as it is, maybe this is what is needed to take the sport back, and maybe the A-Cat guys have gotten that much farther ahead. I don’t think the Olympics is a place for rich fat club guys sailing 4 knot esoteric designs in order to pump their egos up and think they are the best in the world at sailing. It’s Baloney.

I would add, on a boat that goes 4 knots, a few millimeters difference probably means something lends a performance edge. However, that begs the question, is it to be equipment, or skill and athleticism that defines a Champion? On a catamaran, position, wit and sailing skill mean much more than 5mm on some 4 knot keel boat. I am not a great sailor but I can fully appreciate this aspect cats, and will not soon forget the time I sailed a fast F18 boat in a pin race, and watched a champion cat sailor in a hobie 16 identify lift and tide suitable for him to sprint off, catch it, and lick our team and a few other F18’s fair and square, across the finish line. Pretty neat stuff.

On a boat that goes 4 knots, maybe a few millimeters difference probably means something to the performance edge. But Wouter is right. A guy with a thick wallet will be the first to cry foul and trot out equipment spec deviations as the reason he lost. (A bad carpenter always blames his tools, as they say.) Is it to be equipment rules, or skill and athleticism that defines a Champion?


Nacra F18 #856
Re: TV piece on Olympic Tornado issue [Re: rexdenton] #123095
12/22/07 11:49 AM
12/22/07 11:49 AM
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Just watched a good piece on the issue in a TV show called Seamaster Sailing Series on Sunsports (a Florida sports channel), making the case for keeping the multihull and interviewing Australian and British officials. We need more publicity like this!


Arie
Hobie 16 111812
Re: TV piece on Olympic Tornado issue [Re: arievd] #123096
12/22/07 01:58 PM
12/22/07 01:58 PM
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Quote
Just watched a good piece on the issue in a TV show called Seamaster Sailing Series on Sunsports (a Florida sports channel), making the case for keeping the multihull and interviewing Australian and British officials. We need more publicity like this!


Don't suppose it's on Youtube?


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Re: TV piece on Olympic Tornado issue [Re: scooby_simon] #123097
12/22/07 02:06 PM
12/22/07 02:06 PM
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Long Beach, California
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This show is available as a free podcast on iTunes - huge download, however (350 Megs or so). The December show isn't up yet, but should be soon. More perspective on the Star class in the November show, though. Really good production - worth the download.

Just open the iTunes store and search for Seamaster Sailing.


John Williams

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Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: TV piece on Olympic Tornado issue [Re: John Williams] #123098
12/22/07 03:51 PM
12/22/07 03:51 PM
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John,

I went to the International Star Site and went through the classified ads yesterday. Folli boats are hot, Lillia boats took Gold and Silver in Athens and Mader boats are perenial favorites. There are many other Star builders out there, but these three are the prefered boats. There were 5 Follis on the site used, but in top race configuration. Most came with only one set of sails, but had two masts. I do not know if trailers were included, but the used price for these boats ran from $38,000 to $45,000. A used Tornado runs between $18,000 to $25,000 in full race ready configuration. This price is based upon 2001 and newer T's. There are some deals out there for used T's as there are for used Stars, it depends upon how motivated the seller is to move the boat. A brand new Star runs between $55,000-$65,000 for a fully rigged, race ready boat. A Tornado straight from Marstrom is $33,500 USD excluding VAT. The sails will put you back another $4,200 including battens, putting the price at $38,000. This does make the tornado of of the most expensive boats for it's size. While the Tornado platform does have a two campaign life cycle, the teams do use quite a few sails and more than a couple of masts over this period. I am placing this information out only to answer a question posted earlier in this thread. The reality of this still is that the equipment costs are still a small portion of what it takes to support a campaign financially. While a race ready Laser can be had for $7,000-$8,000 race ready, you might use 2-3 hull, masts and boards to finish a campaign. Most well funded teams whether it is a Star, Tornado or Laser have 2+ boats. One for racing in the US and another for the European circut. You may ship the US boat to do the Australian, NZ or other Southern Hemisphere venues and keep the European boat solely for that circut. One of the greatest costs in campaigning is the constant travel required in some classes to be able to race and compete with other top level sailors. The US tornado scene right now is quite small. The Tornado Nationals held in 90 or 91 in Quincy Bay had 87-90 teams competing. By 2000, you did well to get 10-20 boats in attendance and 6 sailed this year at the nationals and US Trials. Many things have contributed to the decline; trailerability, cost, new design obsoleting older boats, the level of competition and the lack of promotion, US builders to name a few.

Right now the equipment question for the Olympics is not the issue. It is the slate of events. Once the slate is set, then the equipment question comes in to play. Up until this point, the past runs at the Tornado have primarily come from Hobie. Hobie has put forth the Hobie 16 as their choice to go up angainst the Tornado for that spot. It truly never had a chance even given the number of 16's that are out there racing. I think that if the right class got behind the right boat, it could displace the Tornado, but to date I do not know what that boat would be. the tornado has been developed from a class structure to be an Olympic level boat. This has taken many years work with strong guidance at times to elevate the class to this level. Over the past 10-15 years the level of competition in the Olympics has risen to the elite level solely. It is primarily a professionsal level now. the Star attracts the stars of the monohull world to the class and to the Olympics. Some rise through Lasers or 470's others come from the AC and other elite venues to the Olympics. The Tornado and other multihull classes have not had that ability to draw these high profile sailors to compete on multi's. Have we had our stars? Yes, the likes of Randy Smyth, Paul Elvestrom, the Glasers, Pete Melvin and others, but look at the list of Star celebsand ask yourself why US Sailing is so supportive of this class in the Olympics. This class represents throuout its history some of the all time great sailors of this country and from around the World. It is with this pedegree that US Sailing and the ISAF support the class. They feel that the overall exposure that these stars bring to the event will translate into greater interest in Olympic sailing. They may be correct about that. I followed the Star class in Athens as closely as I followed the Tornado class. But enough said.

We need to decide our course and plan are actions.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
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