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by Frank N. 05/04/22 07:38 PM
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Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: ] #122719
11/10/07 06:01 PM
11/10/07 06:01 PM
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New Hampshire, USA
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I think that the Laser is a good case in point. It is a specific and tightly controlled one-design class. Throughout an Olympic campaign you will go through 2 hull, many different masts, sails, rudders and daggerboards either trying to find the best equipment available or because your boat has taken enough of a beating that it is no longer as stiff as you need it to be. Somewhere earlier on another thread about this topic, I went over a Laser selecting event that happened in Boston, actually just north east of Boston, where over 100 hulls, masts, booms, sails, rudder blades and daggerboards were present. For the next 12-24 hours they were sorted through to find the best of each. You were looking at sail shape, hull stiffness and fairing, etc... This is a ritual and a time consuming process. On Tornados we purchased either a Marstom, reg White, Sailcraft of Canada or Lindsay. Maybe we raced home-built boats, Holton or Gougoen. There were competent Australian builders (Boyer for one) and so-on. We faired our own hulls or had someone fair them and went out racing. These boats changed over time and Marstrom became the builder of choice with 90%+ of the market. They are race ready, last 8-12 years competively and until now held their market value. We keep hearing about the cost of a Tornado compared to other Olympic classes, but not even a Star has the racing life of a Tornado. A laser campaign will probably run $20,000 for the campaign, while a Tornado may run in excess of $40,000. A Star is in the $60,000 range. These are for the platforms, rigging, sdails and so-on. But lets also remember that the vehicle on which to compete is the smallest portion of the Olympic campaign budget. I was talking to a couple of Olympic sailors who put the overall cost of a campaign for 2004-2008 upwards of $400,000. So that puts the boat at 10% of the overall budget.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: rhodysail] #122720
11/10/07 07:58 PM
11/10/07 07:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
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Quote
Quote

Personally I can't see any reason to retain my membership. It would probably be viewed as a small gesture I guess, but if 305 members resigned en masse it would at least indicate what the cat community thinks about this.


I did just that yesterday and also stepped off the MHC. I've heard about as much lip service as I can stand.


Unfortunately, because ISAF Regulation 19 applies to the H-16 North Americans (participants in a North Americans of an ISAF International Class must be members of their MNA), that means you won't be eligible to sail in the 16 NA's in Clear Lake, Iowa next year.

You might want to reconsider that, Bob.

You can bet your butt that I'm going to corner David Sprague at the ODSS next weekend and inquire why he voted against the multihull.

BTW, I'm planning to wear black all next weekend at the ODSS in protest.

Last edited by mbounds; 11/10/07 07:59 PM.
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: mbounds] #122721
11/10/07 09:55 PM
11/10/07 09:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
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good luck with that

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Catfan] #122722
11/10/07 10:15 PM
11/10/07 10:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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A few thoughts:

FIRST
This development (no multihulls in the Olympics) can be seen as a direct consequence of the inexistence of a suitable “entry cat” competing in the same market niche of the Optimist. I believe that an "entry cat program" is the most important action for the middle and long term development of multihulls.


SECOND
ISAF chose the equipment BUT the classes haven't been chosen yet AND "dinghy" does not necessarily mean monohull.

It is possible to lobby immediately for the A Class (or another single-handed dinghy cat) to replace the Finn, Laser and/or Laser radial - and for the Tornado (or another double-handed dinghy cat) to replace the 470, 49er or women' 470.

If I had to choose one move only, I'd go for the A Class instead of the Finn or Laser. After the tests in Quiberon a few years ago, the A Class refused an invitation to be the Olympic "high performance dinghy".

This would be a short term move with fair possibilities of success.


THIRD
IF the Tornado class is to die due to the loss of Olympic status, it will open space to develop a new B Class, replacing the old one, which was killed by the Tornado (a B Class cat) selection for the games.
It will be quite interesting to see a 20ft X 10ft development class following the A Class rules or (even better) the C Class rules.


FOURTH
I am not sure if excluding the multihull event from the games is such a big loss in terms of visibility. The giant multihulls and the new ORMA 70 one design will remain more visible and attractive for the media.


FIFTH
Time changes things. "If you seat long enough by the river, you will see your enemy's body pass" (Chinese proverb).


Just my 2 cents...


Luiz
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Luiz] #122723
11/10/07 10:24 PM
11/10/07 10:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
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Quote
"If you seat long enough by the river you will see your enemy's body pass" (Chinese proverb).


Some need bigger rivers than others.
Slightly off topic but, someone lately told me that you atrract more flies with sugar, but have you ever noticed the abundance of flies around a body?

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: mbounds] #122724
11/10/07 10:37 PM
11/10/07 10:37 PM
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Posts: 334
Thunder Bay ON CAN
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"You can bet your butt that I'm going to corner David Sprague at the ODSS next weekend and inquire why he voted against the multihull"

I think I will have a little chat with David also.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #122725
11/11/07 12:10 AM
11/11/07 12:10 AM
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Western Australia
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A T isn't the most expensive class around. I suspect the T would pale when it comes to a star or whatever keel class they are using.... Remember a T can still be built by anyone with the skills.. Unlike the 470,49er,laser..

Saying that, the cost of an Olympic campaign towers over the costs of the platform.. So cost is a furfy..

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: rhodysail] #122726
11/11/07 02:28 AM
11/11/07 02:28 AM
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Issaquah, WA, USA
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When we met at the US SAILING AGM in Phoenix last month and represented you, the Multihull Sailors, the Multihull Council was pleased to report, as noted in another post, the USA Olympic Sailing Committee submitted to the ISAF the recommendation for the 2012 Olympics to include two multihull classes.

The three USA ISAF members decided to go against the recommendations of US SAILING and voted to eliminate the multihull class in the 2012 Olympics.

You may wish to share your feelings with the three USA ISAF Delegates:
David Irish daveirish@irishboatshop.com
Charley Cook chascook@comcast.net
Cory Sertl corysertl@rochester.rr.com

Be polite, but let them know what you think of their decision.

Caleb Tarleton, Multihull Council

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: _flatlander_] #122727
11/11/07 04:12 AM
11/11/07 04:12 AM
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North-West Europe
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Quote

Are we planning on writing a new rule book as well?



Why ? When my great-great grandfather was hauling fish out of the sea some 200 years ago on a sailing fishing vessel near Iceland he used the same internationally accepted "right of way" rules as we do now.

ISAF is just an organisation that "claims" ownership of these rules.

Besides one of the most simple things to do is right up these rules there is not to much there and frankly speaking they could use someone looking them over for clearity and unambiqious wordings.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: mbounds] #122728
11/11/07 04:31 AM
11/11/07 04:31 AM
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Posts: 953
Western Australia
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perhaps a the H16 sailors can stand up and disregard ISAF Regulation 19. By amending their invitation to race.

If a few international cat classes protest this way ISAF will have to take notice.. Get the heads of the international cat associations on a phone conference and discuss a new cat body..

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Luiz] #122729
11/11/07 04:36 AM
11/11/07 04:36 AM
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North-West Europe
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ISAF in general is against FORMULA based classes. It doesn't understand them and I religiously believes that strict One-Design, or rather Single-Manufacturer-One-Design, is the best form of sailboat racing.

Therefor any A-class, B-class or Formula 18 class are out of the question. They already had trouble accepting the "OD status but not SMOD" status of the Tornado where everybody could use different masts and sails.

Additionally a dinghy is most definately regarded as a Monohull by the whigs mostly because they don't consider Multihulls as real boats to begin with.

I wonder, is the ORMA 60 class a ISAF recognised class ?

But they certainly make no hassle about that, I guess because the French ORMA organisation is to powerful to pick a fight with. We need something like that for small catamaran racing.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Luiz] #122730
11/11/07 04:40 AM
11/11/07 04:40 AM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

This development (no multihulls in the Olympics) can be seen as a direct consequence of the inexistence of a suitable “entry cat”



We are already working on covering that angle !

As you know.


Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/11/07 04:40 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: H17cat] #122731
11/11/07 07:05 AM
11/11/07 07:05 AM

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Caleb, can you clarify the relationship between the ISAF delegates and US Sailing. Who are the delegates appointed by, if not US Sailing, and if they are appointed by US Sailing what kind of authority do they have to disregard US Sailing's recommendation?

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Wouter] #122732
11/11/07 07:11 AM
11/11/07 07:11 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote

Quote

This development (no multihulls in the Olympics) can be seen as a direct consequence of the inexistence of a suitable “entry cat”


We are already working on covering that angle ! As you know.
Wouter


Yes, but internal marketing is necessary to obtain momentum and I think the timing is good.


Luiz
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: ] #122733
11/11/07 07:58 AM
11/11/07 07:58 AM
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Western Australia
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dont know .. I do notice NZ also voted against the T...

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: rhodysail] #122734
11/11/07 08:06 AM
11/11/07 08:06 AM
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Quote
Quote

Personally I can't see any reason to retain my membership. It would probably be viewed as a small gesture I guess, but if 305 members resigned en masse it would at least indicate what the cat community thinks about this.


I did just that yesterday and also stepped off the MHC. I've heard about as much lip service as I can stand.


Im sure you have good reason. Id like also to hear what JW finds out about what happened with the US delegates before making any decision about US Sailing membership.

As far as the argument that we as a sailing community should get more involved with US Sailing and work to have more of a voice... with enough volunteers, I would bet we could start from scratch, reproduce the majority of the benefits we receive from US Sailing, and then be in a much better position to control our own destiny long term.

I think this would have to be a decision from our current multihull council members, but Id be the first to step on board to help.

Viva Revolution! Catsailors have always been a different bunch!

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: BrianK] #122735
11/11/07 08:14 AM
11/11/07 08:14 AM
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West coast of Norway
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Brian,

that might work in the US where most of you dont have your boats at clubs. In Europe the norm is to have your boat at a club, which is affiliated with the national assoc. like US Sailing which again is an ISAF member. At least here i Norway I would have all kinds of trouble starting a club not affiliated to the national sports organizations which again would tell me that the club would have to be organized under our national sailing assoc. which is affiliated with ISAF.. Without it, no insurance, no money, no support from the local goverment.. How do you break this loop? ISAF is everywhere, which would be good if the organziation worked as it is supposed to.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Stewart] #122736
11/11/07 10:08 AM
11/11/07 10:08 AM
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Branford, CT
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BTW: You do not need to be a US Sailing member to compete in a North American Championship. It's enough to be a member of an "affiliated organization" (i.e. your class association).

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: rhodysail] #122737
11/11/07 12:20 PM
11/11/07 12:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Quote
19. ELIGIBILITY CODE
ISAF Eligibility Rules
19.1 A competitor whose ISAF eligibility has been suspended or revoked shall not engage in any competition in the sport of sailing.
19.2 To be eligible to compete in an event listed in 19.3, a competitor shall:
(a) be governed by the regulations and rules of ISAF;
(b) be a member of his/her Member National Authority or one of its affiliated organizations.


Events Requiring ISAF Eligibility
19.3 ISAF Eligibility is required for the following events:
(a) the sailing regatta of the Olympic Games;
(b) the sailing regattas of Regional Games recognized by the International Olympic Committee;
(c) events including “ISAF” in their titles;
(d) world and continental championships of ISAF classes and world championships of the IMS, Major Events and other events approved by ISAF as a World
Championship;


Technically true, however the NOR's for the last two 16 NA's have required MNA membership. Not that we've enforced it.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Catfan] #122738
11/11/07 12:21 PM
11/11/07 12:21 PM
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Surprise surprise the Tornado is out of the Olympics. Heck you all shoot yourself in the foot all the time. You do not like the h16 but it’s still the strongest multihull class (no matter what you say). Instead of embracing it as a good thing you all push it away. Did you all even check out the recent h16 worlds? I watch this forum and read the bickering that goes on and so I am not surprised when the ISAF or the other organizations are not for multihulls. You guys are your worst enemies. And by the way we do not need any more new multihull designs we need to support what we have like in the monohull classes.

It’s simple:

SUPPORT the Hobie 16 (youth and adults)
SUPPORT the A-Cats
& Grow the Formula 18 (not HT) class.

I might add the Wave is a great boat for newbie sailing programs!

Guys this is the future of sailing or can be so embrace it or continue to watch multihull sailing decline and be pushed out!

I know I will be nailed via my comments, which pretty much makes my case about being your own worst enemies! I just think we need to unite!

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