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high wind bearaway techniques #125172
12/01/07 11:10 PM
12/01/07 11:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline OP
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davefarmer  Offline OP
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WA, ID, MT
I'm comfortable powering upwind in 20 kts+, and once the spin is launched it's plenty easy to control. But I don't feel like I've got a fool proof plan for making the turn downwind in these conditions. Care to offer your ideas/strategies?
I tend to drop the traveller 10 or 12 inches, and when she approaches a beam reach I'm inclined to sheet out the main to keep the hull down, all the while maintaining boatspeed and turning as fast as possible. But the main needs to come back in pretty quickly so as to not have a bunch sail area up high perpendicular to the wind once she's pointed deep. That seems like a lot of sheeting in and out to be done while paying attention to my driving(often solo or with only moderately experienced crew). If I don't get it close to right it gets a bit spooky. Is there a better way?

Dave

A cat
F18HT
Flight Risk

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Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: davefarmer] #125173
12/01/07 11:31 PM
12/01/07 11:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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South Carolina
Quote
I'm comfortable powering upwind in 20 kts+, and once the spin is launched it's plenty easy to control. But I don't feel like I've got a fool proof plan for making the turn downwind in these conditions. Care to offer your ideas/strategies?
I tend to drop the traveller 10 or 12 inches, and when she approaches a beam reach I'm inclined to sheet out the main to keep the hull down, all the while maintaining boatspeed and turning as fast as possible. But the main needs to come back in pretty quickly so as to not have a bunch sail area up high perpendicular to the wind once she's pointed deep. That seems like a lot of sheeting in and out to be done while paying attention to my driving(often solo or with only moderately experienced crew). If I don't get it close to right it gets a bit spooky. Is there a better way?

Dave

A cat
F18HT
Flight Risk



Sounds like you've pretty much got it figured out (although I would drop the traveler all the way).


Jake Kohl
Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: Jake] #125174
12/02/07 01:07 AM
12/02/07 01:07 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline OP
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davefarmer  Offline OP
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Jake,
So you blow the traveller entirely? And are you almost immediately travelling and sheeting back in? Can you do this by yourself? Pin the tiller extension while sheeting? It seems like a handful, with little room for error. Thanks for the reply!

Dave

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: davefarmer] #125175
12/02/07 05:57 AM
12/02/07 05:57 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 145
Cheshire, UK
Simon Offline
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Simon  Offline
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Cheshire, UK
Hi, I am not hugely experienced but have become comfortable in heavy weather (say gusting 30 knots or so) even in heavy chop... in a nutshell, we get the crew in, I sit right at the beam, we dump everything (jib, traveller and mainsheet a good armful, but keep hold for sheeting in again straight away), and as we do that, the crew throws themselves across my lap and hangs onto the rear beam, pinning us both at the back of the boat). Then round she goes from beating to a run, and head straight downwind while centering the traveller and sheeting in, and get the jib under control. Most of the time we leave the boards where they are (we rarely adjust them between up/downwind) if it is that windy, I don't want the crew on the leeward hull, and we have found we can cope with the boards where they are. Gybing in those conditions is through the smallest angle possible, and usually with the traveller centered - I grab the falls and push them over to anticipate the gybe.

This works for me on Spitfire (16 feet) and Nacra 6.0 (20 feet). The key is find a crew who'll throw themselves across your lap!

I'm yet to try it single-handed.


Simon
Shadow 067
Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: Simon] #125176
12/02/07 12:18 PM
12/02/07 12:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline OP
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davefarmer  Offline OP
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WA, ID, MT
Thanks Jake and Simon. Yeah, keeping weight aft sounds right, and you both seem to be confirming that the main (and jib) go out and quickly back in, if properly choreographed. And it's all done with a dash of respect and fear!

dave

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: davefarmer] #125177
12/02/07 12:25 PM
12/02/07 12:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
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Michigan
Grab the back of the boat and turn down real quick like. Make sure you don't go so far so quick that you gybe, then you are guaranteed to flip.

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: PTP] #125178
12/02/07 12:36 PM
12/02/07 12:36 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Timing is everything in these manouvers. Try to do in in a lull if it is really wild.

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: davefarmer] #125179
12/02/07 01:51 PM
12/02/07 01:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Quote
Jake,
So you blow the traveller entirely? And are you almost immediately travelling and sheeting back in? Can you do this by yourself? Pin the tiller extension while sheeting? It seems like a handful, with little room for error. Thanks for the reply!

Dave


Yes, I do blow it entirely (or 90% there). Sometimes it does take an extra couple of seconds to get the main in and if it's coming in a little slow, I ask the crew to wait to sheet in the kite until the main is firm enough to support the mast. I try to keep the boat as flat as possible coming around so the crew can get the kite up easier.


Jake Kohl
Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: Jake] #125180
12/02/07 04:52 PM
12/02/07 04:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
DougSnell Offline
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DougSnell  Offline
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Seabrook, TX
Dave:

On the little 4.3 it is just me. When I go around the weather mark I release maybe a foot or two of mainsheet, depending on wind (leave the traveler set like going to weather, I know seems weird, but you will go 4 times faster this way, do to apparent wind), head on the downwind course, drop the tiller and grab the spin halyard line and go hand over hand till it is up. THEN I grab the tiller and trim spin. Once the apparent wind is flowing good from the spin, I will then trim the main and blade jib till the telltales or flowing. Really easy once you have done it a few times. I LOVE having a spin boat. OH, if a puff hits, head down quick, but not to far (as said, easy to gybe) or you will go over quick.

Good Luck,

Doug

Last edited by DougSnell; 12/02/07 04:58 PM.
Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: davefarmer] #125181
12/02/07 05:44 PM
12/02/07 05:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Quote
Jake,
So you blow the traveller entirely? And are you almost immediately travelling and sheeting back in? Can you do this by yourself? Pin the tiller extension while sheeting? It seems like a handful, with little room for error. Thanks for the reply!

Dave


I do usually drop the tiller to sheet in quickly. The I20, once you've got her pointed properly downhill, will stay there long enough for you to sheet back in. If I really feel like "going for it", I'll stay out on the wire for the turn...but after having turned sharply enough to have my feet leave the hull, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be faster to have my butt planted on the hull for a snappy turn instead. But as shown in this picture, I can get the main back in before the kite is up.

[Linked Image]


Jake Kohl
Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: Jake] #125182
12/02/07 06:24 PM
12/02/07 06:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
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Michigan
Here is my usual sequence of events when the wind is blowing.
1: off the wire,
2: blow downhaul
3: let traveler out depending on how much it is really blowing.. but usually not too incredibly much
4: let out the mainsheet about a foot of sheet or so
5: turn down as I am letting the trav out
6: if it is really blowing run almost DDW
7: drop tiller, pull spin halyard
8: grab tiller really quick when it seems like boat is heading up too much.. jerk it back
9: drop tiller, pull on spin halyard
10: stop pulling, heading too far down
11: almost gybe
12: push tiller hard
13: pull on halyard again, spin up
14: grab sheet
15: heading up too much, yank tiller again
16: sheet in on spin
1&: head up for some speed, think about going on the wire to get the bows up

many s curves in there. and all this without even racing or truly "rounding" a mark <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: PTP] #125183
12/02/07 07:06 PM
12/02/07 07:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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bvining  Offline
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Dave,
The HT loves to dig the bows in downwind when the chute isnt up. The combination of a very tall mast and skinny bows and you've got a recipe for a nice pitchpole on bearaway and running downwind in gusty over 30knot conditions.

I really pay attention to weight placement. Get your crew back when you turn. Also contrary to all other opinions discussed here, I sheet in once the turn is made, the sail presents less volume to the wind if you sheet in, so think about sheeting in and travelling in if its really windy.

And get the chute up quick, its your best insurance against digging the bows in.

Bill

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: bvining] #125184
12/02/07 07:41 PM
12/02/07 07:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,303
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Quote
Dave,
The HT loves to dig the bows in downwind when the chute isnt up. The combination of a very tall mast and skinny bows and you've got a recipe for a nice pitchpole on bearaway and running downwind in gusty over 30knot conditions.

I really pay attention to weight placement. Get your crew back when you turn. Also contrary to all other opinions discussed here, I sheet in once the turn is made, the sail presents less volume to the wind if you sheet in, so think about sheeting in and travelling in if its really windy.

And get the chute up quick, its your best insurance against digging the bows in.

Bill


I wasn't contrary to that.


Jake Kohl
Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: bvining] #125185
12/02/07 09:47 PM
12/02/07 09:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline OP
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davefarmer  Offline OP
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WA, ID, MT
Hey Bill,
You put your finger on my reason for thinking about this so much. The bows are VERY fine, and there's lots of sail way up high! Particularly after the SC20, which when driven properly, was very resistant to stuffing a bow. So I want to perfect my technique. It has me thinking about T foil rudders as well to further address this issue.
But yeah, I'm good about getting crew weight aft. And I'm spending a fair amount of time trying to engineer the smoothest hoist/retrieval system I can come up with, so that the chute can go up fast. I,m favoring the SNU snuffer, figuring out the hlyd/tackline arrangement(one line hoist), choosing the most appropriate taperable hlyd(and lengths), determining spin sheet attachment to clew, new autoratchets, all with a bunch of much appreciated input from you guys. Which is hugely appreciated, as there are few F18s and similar boats nearby to check out.
And I agree with Jake that everyone seemed to be suggesting, as you did, that the main goes out breifly, and quickly sheeted back in.
Thanks all!

Dave

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: davefarmer] #125186
12/03/07 04:38 AM
12/03/07 04:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 207
couldn't resist it
Codblow Offline
enthusiast
Codblow  Offline
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Posts: 207
couldn't resist it
You are going the right way wih thinking of wings (i'm sounding like a stuck record ) on my stealth 18ht/f16 hybrid , the bows dont go down on bear off wwhatever the wind is, I snapped a board off bearing away in 35 knotts , but bows never dipped, its not something that enters my mind and I can concentrate on getting kite up asap .

With the huge leverage of the 18ht rig I reckon for strong wind sailing they are essential , I think it was on the 18ht that John Pierce developed the wings before he went on to make em standard on his F 16s and evertone swears by them .

Promise not to mention it ever again !!!

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: Jake] #125187
12/03/07 07:31 AM
12/03/07 07:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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bvining  Offline
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Quote


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave,
The HT loves to dig the bows in downwind when the chute isnt up. The combination of a very tall mast and skinny bows and you've got a recipe for a nice pitchpole on bearaway and running downwind in gusty over 30knot conditions.

I really pay attention to weight placement. Get your crew back when you turn. Also contrary to all other opinions discussed here, I sheet in once the turn is made, the sail presents less volume to the wind if you sheet in, so think about sheeting in and travelling in if its really windy.

And get the chute up quick, its your best insurance against digging the bows in.

Bill


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I wasn't contrary to that.


Sorry, I was drunk when I wrote that.

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: bvining] #125188
12/03/07 07:57 AM
12/03/07 07:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Quote
Quote


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dave,
The HT loves to dig the bows in downwind when the chute isnt up. The combination of a very tall mast and skinny bows and you've got a recipe for a nice pitchpole on bearaway and running downwind in gusty over 30knot conditions.

I really pay attention to weight placement. Get your crew back when you turn. Also contrary to all other opinions discussed here, I sheet in once the turn is made, the sail presents less volume to the wind if you sheet in, so think about sheeting in and travelling in if its really windy.

And get the chute up quick, its your best insurance against digging the bows in.

Bill


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I wasn't contrary to that.


Sorry, I was drunk when I wrote that.


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Jake Kohl
Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: Jake] #125189
12/03/07 12:58 PM
12/03/07 12:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 164
I
I20RI Offline
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I20RI  Offline
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I
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Posts: 164
The # 1 consideration is weight as far aft as possible, usually I stay on the wire all the way at as I can be ad my crew sits on the rear beam and readies for the hoist. The aim here is to keep the rudders in the water as much as it is to keep the bows up. No rudders, no steering. I try not to sheet out the main at all, maybe a foot at most, but I will travel all the way down. Keep in mind the spin is about to go up and masts break when the main is sheeted out.

Consideration 1a is turn down QUICKLY!. I try to get to a very broad reach with as much haste as possible. Once the spin is up, no problem.

So
1- weight aft
2- turn down fast

I always had the weight aft part down, but once i figured out that I had to get deep really really fast my incidences of pitchpoling basically ended, even in 30kts plus

good luck,

charlie

Granted the I20 is a tough boat to pitchpole, but believe me, it can be done. I have found this technique works on the HT as well.

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: I20RI] #125190
12/03/07 01:43 PM
12/03/07 01:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 709
mikekrantz Offline
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Posts: 709
I've sailed a lot of miles on the HT. As a skipper, I always stayed out on the wire with my forward foot on the rear beam while bearing away in gnarly conditions. Never pitched it on the bear away.

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: Simon] #125191
12/04/07 05:14 AM
12/04/07 05:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 74
Norway
S
Stein Offline
journeyman
Stein  Offline
journeyman
S
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 74
Norway
We all agreee that moving weight to the rear is crucial.

Question:
If you dump the main, the top of your sail will twist. When bearing away the top of the main will produce a lot of forward drive, while the bottom of the sail will stall. Therefore, dumping the main sheet will increase the moment that tries to pitch-pole your ship?

Dumping the traveler will maintain pressures in whole sail. Hence, there is no large difference between top and bottom in forward-directed force. However, when dumping the traveler, the main sheet is tightened somewhat, hence sheeting out a couple of inches is necessary.

Dumping the jib sheet may on many boats lift the bows slightly.

Tentative conclusion: dump traveler, sheet out mainsheet only 6-12 inches, release jib sheet.
Does anyone agree?

Stein

Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: Stein] #125192
12/04/07 08:21 AM
12/04/07 08:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 12,303
South Carolina
Quote
We all agreee that moving weight to the rear is crucial.

Question:
If you dump the main, the top of your sail will twist. When bearing away the top of the main will produce a lot of forward drive, while the bottom of the sail will stall. Therefore, dumping the main sheet will increase the moment that tries to pitch-pole your ship?

Dumping the traveler will maintain pressures in whole sail. Hence, there is no large difference between top and bottom in forward-directed force. However, when dumping the traveler, the main sheet is tightened somewhat, hence sheeting out a couple of inches is necessary.

Dumping the jib sheet may on many boats lift the bows slightly.

Tentative conclusion: dump traveler, sheet out mainsheet only 6-12 inches, release jib sheet.
Does anyone agree?

Stein


Perhaps - but you still have to control the power with the mainsheet with more adjustment when it's really cranking....like when you've already had to make a major ease just to get the boat down to start setting up for the rounding. Here, we're still at Mach 9 with the top half of the main inverted (granted we are reaching off slightly).

Speed is another important factor - if you can keep up the boat speed, the difference between your speed and the wind speed is smaller.

[Linked Image]


Jake Kohl
Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: Jake] #125193
12/04/07 10:23 AM
12/04/07 10:23 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 145
Cheshire, UK
Simon Offline
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Simon  Offline
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Posts: 145
Cheshire, UK
I'd echo that the jib, main and traveller are only eased for the instant in which you make the bear away. This being in conditions where to have them 'uneased' would knock you over sideways as you go through the reach. In my case that means we are unlikely to even have the crew on the wire at all - just playing safe rather than going for pure speed, especially in a heavy chop.

No one has mentioned the opposite situation - heading up after the rapid downwind leg. I use the same solution. Weight back, dump everything and spin round to windward rapidly as the sails are dumped.

So in both cases the dumping is just to get you through the reaching position. And it all happens quickly!

Then again, sometimes the crew will go out, just to get wet (see attachment)

Attached Files

Simon
Shadow 067
Re: high wind bearaway techniques [Re: Simon] #125194
12/04/07 11:06 PM
12/04/07 11:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline OP
old hand
davefarmer  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2004
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WA, ID, MT
Thanks guys, that's the help I was hoping for. We'll see if I can translate it into practice.

dave

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