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What about Marstrom's new A-cat? #127045
12/26/07 05:25 PM
12/26/07 05:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 64
Sandy, UT
SteveBlevins Offline OP
journeyman
SteveBlevins  Offline OP
journeyman

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Posts: 64
Sandy, UT
Among all the new boats at the A-cat worlds was supposed to be the Marstrom A-cat. I found a picture of him here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/58897601@N00/2037980301/in/set-72157603208228822/
h
I could not tell any difference, if indeed there is any difference. Anybody know the story?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: SteveBlevins] #127046
12/27/07 05:57 AM
12/27/07 05:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline
enthusiast
Hakan Frojdh  Offline
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Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Comparision between the old and new marstrom.

Hull:
Full length in the waterline.
Reduced rocker.
Minor changes on the distribution of volume.
Integraded fittings for shroud and forestay.

Foils:
New centerboards with reduced width

Beams:
New mainbeam without dolphin striker.

Manufacturing
Shroud and forestay fittings are integraded in the hull and no bulkheads. This means that there is no need to cut a hole in the deck to do that installation when the hull gets out from the autoclave. Just put the stern in place and add some paint!

By the way, the A-class spi snail is finally ready, it took a while....
I will post pictures when the first snail is painted and ready.

/hakan

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #127047
12/27/07 07:33 AM
12/27/07 07:33 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Ooooh, photos please of the new design <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A class spi snail? Are you still swearing to the snail and have you done something interesting to it?? Any comments on the twin forestays and spi setting/retrieving/gybing and trimming (sorry if this takes the thread off-topic)?

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #127048
12/27/07 10:48 AM
12/27/07 10:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
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Posts: 953
Western Australia
"A" class snail? Ok I can understand a snail for a F16 but "A"??? Am I missing something here?

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Stewart] #127049
12/27/07 10:53 AM
12/27/07 10:53 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Hakan used to have an M20 snail on his A, but I gather he have gotten a model downsized for his A-cat spi. Looking forward to what Hakan have to say about it!

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #127050
12/27/07 11:27 AM
12/27/07 11:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
R
Rhino1302 Offline
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Rhino1302  Offline
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Posts: 308
Reno NV
I could have sworn that I've seen a Marstrom A Cat without a dolphin striker several years ago.

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Rhino1302] #127051
12/27/07 01:17 PM
12/27/07 01:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline
enthusiast
Hakan Frojdh  Offline
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Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
I know of one occasion where the dolphin striker broke on a Marstrom due to manufacturing fault but the beam didn't break. But I haven't seen anyone bold enough to remove it!

I called it the "A-class" snail but it's NOT class legal, so you haven't missed anything.....

Some good and bad things about the snail after using it for several years. I haven't that much experience with a normal snuffer so I can't give a good comparision between them.

The "snail" is optimized for unirigs, if you have a sloop use a snuffer instead.

The twin forestays is no big issue, I have a small plastic pipe about 0.2 meter long between the stays close to the mast fitting to avoid that the spi gets stuck between the forestays. Marstrom uses small plastic tubes on the lower part of the forestays to reduce friction during the jibes.

+ Low windage
+ Takes care of the spi sheet by winding up the sheet around the drum.
+ The weight of the spi gets close to the mast.
+ No excess wearing on the spi, but many others that haven't used the snail complains about it?!

- The current version of snail can sometimes mess up inside with the lines, this is solved with the M20/A-class version.
- The mounting of the snail close to the mast means that the spi gets hoisted close to the mast and sometimes the spi halyard can get on the "wrong" side of the spreaders.
- When taking it down you must keep the the halyard quite tight until the patch reaches the spi snail, then you can pull as fast as possible with both hands.
- A bit too "high tech" for some users.

/hakan

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #127052
12/27/07 01:32 PM
12/27/07 01:32 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Thank you Hakan. So gybing the spi with twin forestays is no real problem?.. Hmm, interesting..

Perhaps I can explain where the "No excess wearing on the spi, but many others that haven't used the snail complains about it?!" comes from. It is something credited to when Martin Strandberg and Kristian Mattson tested the first Gran Tornado spis. The text can be found here: http://sailmaker.info/tornado.html
As you see, they had the snail up front at the bridal wires.

Btw: I think Gran Segel Malmø have completely forgotten about that webpage.

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #127053
12/27/07 02:51 PM
12/27/07 02:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline
enthusiast
Hakan Frojdh  Offline
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Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Gybing the spi when I'm sailing singlehanded has a lot of other problems than just messing around with twice as many forestays as the sloop guys, so for me it's not an issue.

Strandberg/Mattson used an early version of the snail which could casue wear on the spi, the later versions has removed that problem. Note that my M20 snail is of the early type too, but one of the reasons why I haven't seen any wear that could be traced back to the snail is that I only have a 16 m2 spi inside it. All snuffers systems wears down the spi more or less but I'm not sure the snail is worse that a tighly packed snuffer.

/hakan

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #127054
12/28/07 02:30 AM
12/28/07 02:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
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Posts: 953
Western Australia
so what is the approximate cost of this new snail?

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #127055
12/28/07 08:11 AM
12/28/07 08:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

I know of one occasion where the dolphin striker broke on a Marstrom due to manufacturing fault but the beam didn't break. But I haven't seen anyone bold enough to remove it!


I've seen this happen on more boats, even with alu beams. The dolphinstriker is mainly there to add stiffness to the beam not so much to add strength (although it does indeed add heaps of "strength")

But stay out in serious chop and wind with a broken dolphinstriker and the beams will crack up near the hulls (high local stresses). If they don't then the engineer designing the beam + dolphinstriker setup really overdimensioned the beam which is pointless with a D-striker there.

Hakan, you should just try a good snuffer setup (like the topcat version). I think you'll find that the differences between the snuffer and snail are to small to matter. Currently a good snuffer costs 250 Euro's complete, I don't know what the snail costs but I suspect a whole lot more. There much be serious advantages to the snail to justify such a setup.

Personally I really appreciate the simple construction of the snuffer. No moving parts that can jam up with sand and salt, repairs are very easily made (needle and thread).

Am I right to assume that the snail setup requires the boat to have twin forestays ?

Regards,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Wouter] #127056
12/28/07 10:37 PM
12/28/07 10:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
old hand
davefarmer  Offline
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Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
Wouter,
Can you point me to info on the topcat snuffer? I haven't heard about them, and I'm looking for a set up for the HT.

dave

Dave

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: davefarmer] #127057
12/28/07 11:34 PM
12/28/07 11:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
So why not use a single forestay and a bridle?

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #127058
12/29/07 04:29 AM
12/29/07 04:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline
enthusiast
Hakan Frojdh  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Wouter, in my opinion the snail works best for twin forestays. If you have a single forestay you must have the snail in front of the forestay and that means that most good things with the snail is converted to bad things (high windage and bad weight distribution).

I prefer to have the "snail" close to the mast to gain most advantages with the setup, and it is easy to reach in case something needs to be fixed. If something messes up with a snuffer you have more trouble accessing it when you are out on the water.

/hakan

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: davefarmer] #127059
12/29/07 05:40 AM
12/29/07 05:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe


http://www.landenberger-sailing.com/spip.php?article48

Landenberger sells it and has info on it but I'm told the snuffer is made by Topcat company.

But VectorWorks Marine is now using this snuffer system for their Blade F16's as well. I personally have the AHPC ring and bag, as the first VWM Blades have as well. Both are good snuffers but I think the Topcat snuffer is better. For example it is very easy to take the bag off the ring and pole, which has its advantages. The AHPC snuffer bag is alot more difficult to put on or take aff and as a result I don't remove it at all. The AHPC bag is very nice though as it is made of a very firm material and won't flap in the wind.

Price is about the same for both.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #127060
12/29/07 05:45 AM
12/29/07 05:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

I prefer to have the "snail" close to the mast to gain most advantages with the setup, and it is easy to reach in case something needs to be fixed. If something messes up with a snuffer you have more trouble accessing it when you are out on the water.



That is not true Hakan. The snuffer itself never hangs up, how can it it ? It is only a ring and a bag. If there is trouble then it is because the sheets hook on the hull, halyards get jammed or one of the blocks jams up or gets broken. All this will cause exactly the same hassle on a boat with a snail.

I think some of the snail "advantages" are just thought up in order to differentiate it from a snuffer. You should try a well designed snuffer setup a few times. I think you will find that the differences that are indeed there are pretty small. Most likely to small to really matter and that is why the ring+bag is the most used snuffer setup on cats these days.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #127061
12/29/07 05:55 AM
12/29/07 05:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
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phill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Harkan,
I found this on an M20 with a jib at Zandvoort setting up for the REM Race.

[Linked Image]

Is this the standarnd snuffer system when they put a jib on the M20 (Extreme 20?) With the jib they are running a single forestay and either have to put the snail past the bridle or only snuff from one side. SFOS may be OK on distance races but a bugger around the bouys.
This is the first M20 I have seen in the flesh and the workmanship and attention to detail was outstanding.

Interested in your comments on the snuffer in the pic?

Regards,
Phill

Attached Files
128866-IMG_9259.JPG (15 downloads)
Last edited by phill; 12/29/07 05:57 AM.

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: phill] #127062
12/29/07 06:10 AM
12/29/07 06:10 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
That is the old Marstrøm Tornado snuffer. His new model dont have the roller and the egdes have a much larger radius. The new model works better than the old one, but still have issues with the retrieval line cutting into the laminate.

It seems logical to me that the snail on a doble forstay boat will have less drag, but what's interesting is how much less drag.. Noticeable or not?

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #127063
12/29/07 09:48 AM
12/29/07 09:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline
enthusiast
Hakan Frojdh  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
I've sailed the F18 capricorn a couple of times and the spi snuffer works very good and feels bulletproof, but the drawback are all the lines and blocks that dangles around.

Could it be that the sloop can handle blocks and lines that dangles along the mast better than the uni rigg?

/hakan

Re: What about Marstrom's new A-cat? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #127064
12/29/07 11:41 AM
12/29/07 11:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe


Quote

but still have issues with the retrieval line cutting into the laminate.


And now you know why all the good snuffers have an aluminium or stainless steel ring.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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