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Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: dsltrc] #127238
01/08/08 08:06 PM
01/08/08 08:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
All Supercats and ARC boats are excellent surf breakers. In addition, they really handle oceanwave states very well compared to other cats.

Mucho bouyancy up front!

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: arbo06] #127239
01/08/08 09:29 PM
01/08/08 09:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
they certainly do - but wear goggles!


Jake Kohl
Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: arbo06] #127240
01/09/08 10:09 AM
01/09/08 10:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
The one problem would seem to be how low the spin pole is on the 22. The Annapolis to Oxford in '06 our resident SC-22 kept grabbing waves with the bottom of the spin rig (pole and shrimping the clew of the sail), causing a pretty spectacular pitch pole at one point, gaining a round of applause from one of the nearby monos.

Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: HMurphey] #127241
01/09/08 05:23 PM
01/09/08 05:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17
M
michoacan Offline OP
stranger
michoacan  Offline OP
stranger
M

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17
hey,
been away for a few days.
great video clip.
yea been thinking about how to right the boat. going to look into those righting ideals.
thanks

Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: arbo06] #127242
01/09/08 05:28 PM
01/09/08 05:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17
M
michoacan Offline OP
stranger
michoacan  Offline OP
stranger
M

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17
do they still make the super cat ?
i have sailed a 17 before, nice ride

Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: arbo06] #127243
01/09/08 06:26 PM
01/09/08 06:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
dsltrc Offline
journeyman
dsltrc  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
finally.... someone who is on my side!!!! i have a SC 17 and 19.... both go thru the surf great here in VA... i'll probably sell the 17 soon... i just redid the whole boat.... but i still like the 19 better cause of the boards...


Jason DiPietro supercat 19
Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: dsltrc] #127244
01/09/08 07:51 PM
01/09/08 07:51 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 34
G
GS01 Offline
newbie
GS01  Offline
newbie
G

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 34
Jason, Good idea on selling the SC17. It seem kinda slow to me. cheers-TS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jhOi5_Ue88

Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: dsltrc] #127245
01/09/08 08:08 PM
01/09/08 08:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
addict
Seeker  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
I have a 1994 SC17 (I had a 1981 model for ten years before this one) and I will confirm it's a great boat in the surf. Great all around boat, faster than a Hobie 16, a lot of volume in the bows...very difficult to pitch pole...points well for a board less cat...caries weight well...strong, top notch construction...Can be sailed solo or with crew...can be righted by a single 150 lb.sailor with its built in shroud extender...Can be fitted with a factory spinnaker...what's not to love?

It's a true "off the beach" catamaran designed by Bill Roberts an aeronautical engineer and outstanding sailor. While the Hobie 16 is an indisputable legend…the Supercat 17 has more bow volume for far far far less pitch poles, more volume in the mast extrusion for less chance of turning turtle, the ability for most single handed sailors to right it without outside aid, and a hull design that allows it to tack easier.

Regards,
Bob

Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: GS01] #127246
01/09/08 08:50 PM
01/09/08 08:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
dsltrc Offline
journeyman
dsltrc  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
Quote
Jason, Good idea on selling the SC17. It seem kinda slow to me. cheers-TS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jhOi5_Ue88

Dang!!!! such a low blow!!! the 17 is very fast, very smooth and is a great boardless beach cat.... if you don't believe me i'd be glad to show you anytime.....the only reason i'd sell it is i don't need 2 boats so close in size and design.... otherwise i love sailing it... I went sailing the other day with a 02 nacra 570 and a 08 Acat.. i tried the acat and my buddy tried my SC17 and he loved it even sailing it solo.... i flipped the SC17 earlier that day and righted very quickly without any help....


Jason DiPietro supercat 19
Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: dsltrc] #127247
01/09/08 09:52 PM
01/09/08 09:52 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 34
G
GS01 Offline
newbie
GS01  Offline
newbie
G

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 34
Jason, I guess you did not check out my link. Thought you might know who this is(I am on my regular ride in the video(TheMightyHobie18). How about you owe me dinner next time we meet. cheers- TS H16 53524

Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: GS01] #127248
01/09/08 10:17 PM
01/09/08 10:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
dsltrc Offline
journeyman
dsltrc  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
Quote
Jason, I guess you did not check out my link. Thought you might know who this is(I am on my regular ride in the video(TheMightyHobie18). How about you owe me dinner next time we meet. cheers- TS H16 53524


well ok i'm drawing a blank..... i know a few people with 18s....


Jason DiPietro supercat 19
Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: dsltrc] #127249
01/09/08 10:31 PM
01/09/08 10:31 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 34
G
GS01 Offline
newbie
GS01  Offline
newbie
G

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 34
Dude, your joking right? How about match up my sail # with your version 2.5 race results. cheers TS

Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: GS01] #127250
01/09/08 11:29 PM
01/09/08 11:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
dsltrc Offline
journeyman
dsltrc  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
sweet.... i didn't get teh sail number in the last post.... well how the heck are ya tom... sorry i'm alittle slow lately... next time add your stinking name.. lol... just wait till you sail against my 19... lol.... r u going to spring fever this year? oh and your right!!! i DO owe u dinner... next time i'm not drinking so much... who orders dinner and then leaves.... lol...

Last edited by dsltrc; 01/09/08 11:34 PM.

Jason DiPietro supercat 19
Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: dsltrc] #127251
01/12/08 07:40 AM
01/12/08 07:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17
M
michoacan Offline OP
stranger
michoacan  Offline OP
stranger
M

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17
I thought Paul Lindenburgh designed the super cat ?

Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: michoacan] #127252
01/12/08 08:29 AM
01/12/08 08:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
dsltrc Offline
journeyman
dsltrc  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA


Jason DiPietro supercat 19
Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: dsltrc] #127253
01/12/08 09:44 AM
01/12/08 09:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

alittle SC info



I will go on record as saying that that article is bunch of claptrap and BS !

It also hasn't been updated in years and suffers enormously from a measure of self aggrandizement that would blow your socks off. Alot of the claims made are simply false a few more are given without context and misleading as a result. A random selection :

Quote

Throughout the 1990s and now into the 21st. Century the products built and designed by the team of Aquarius Sail and Bill Roberts has raised the benchmark in high performance sailing.


The footprint of the SC and ARC products is so ludicrously small that raising ones eyebrows in amazement with require corrective surgery afterwards.

What a bunch of belony ! The classes that shaped the 90's and 00's are A-cat, F18, iF20, Tornado and some smaller classes like the Taipan 4.9. NONE OF THESE WERE INFLUENCED IN ANY WAY BY THE SC AND ARC DESIGNS ! Not even the snuffer design was, as that idea was stolen from the Nacra Inter-17 who stole the idea from the dinghies and modified it to suit a catamaran. Maybe the dinghies stole it from the flying Dutchmens who stole the original idea from Bill but the line of relationship is getting very stretched here, especially since the UK shearwater catamarans were sailing with a snuffer like setup as earlier as the late 1950's c.q. earlier 1960's. I actually believe no single designer can claim intellectual ownership of the snuffer system just as no-one can claim intellectual ownership of items like the spinnaker sail. These systems are the result of a very lengthy development path were multiple creative minds contributed valuably. Bill may hold a US patent on a particular implementation of this general idea, but US patent law is so open that I could claim patents on my left toe nail if I wanted to.


Quote

The superior performance of the 22 design has been demonstrated in both long distance and triangle racing venues since 1992.



First try to find any bouy race results for the ARC22 ! There aren't that many around.

For the remainder the, ARC 22 is the biggest (22ft) fish in a very small pond where all the other fish are by regulation 20 foot long or less. Even then the Inter-20 wins more distances races then the ARC22, mostly because the ARC22 is only brought out for the annual Miami-Key Largo race. No ARC22 has ever been scored outside in a distance race outside of the USA. 99.5 % of the all catsailors in the world could not even identify any supercat or ARC cat if they would see one in the flesh.


Quote

In 1980 Bill went to Holland and sailed the Round Texel Island Race. ... set the lowest elapsed time record for the race on a SuperCat 20. That record stood for several years, and has now been bettered by another SuperCat 20.



Try updating the page. This race record has been bettered several times already during the actual race, which has been significantlly longer then the 1980 record race course for at least 15 years. There is no other supercat, the cat that held the record is one and the same and the only supercat 20 in the netherlands; it was also highly modified by the owner who held the first record.


Quote

That same year the SuperCat product line attended Yachting Magazine's "One Of A Kind Regatta" at New Orleans. Here the SuperCat's dominated the races, ... Bob Bergsted sailed the SuperCat 17 even up with the Nacra 5.2, a "beach boat" pitted against what was considered to be an excellent "board boat." The SuperCat 20 was the only US designed and built boat to ever win this race.



What race ?

I never heard of it and I keep track of race results the world over.

Does it still exits, maybe that is the reason why the SC20 was the only US designed and built boat to win this race.


Quote

The SuperCat catamaran design included several unique patented features. One of these features was the elliptical hull shape to reduce the pitchpoling tendency of multihull sailboats.



You can only patent such a thing under US patent laws. In the rest of the world such a request would be disapproved as it would be to much in line with normal engineering reasoning. It is not a sufficient unique c.q. new feature that resulted from extensive and dedicated research where its research investment must be economically protected by law to safe guard return of investment.


Quote

This design feature has become an industry standard in multihulls of all sizes. Many of the big ocean racers, both cats and tri's utilize the elliptical hull shape. ... and the amas on most of the recently designed large ocean racing trimarans.



This is simply not true on every aspect given. The elliptical hullshape isn't an industry standard now and never was in the past. In fact I know of no beach catamaran brand that has even used elliptical hulls except the SC and ARC products.

The large tri's and cats never used elliptical hull shapes for their main float, even the new SODEBO and IDEC1 do not have pure elliptical hullshape crossections. None of the maxi cats or the designs like the Volvo-extreme-40's have ever used elliptical hull shapes, in fact their hulls are most different. Most of them are U shaped and several even have flat decks. Some ama's of the ORMA 60 tris had bow sections that could be regarded as elliptical. However, these quickly morphed out to a rounded triangular cross sectional shape. It is decidely uncertain whether their designers were influenced by the SC product or even heard of them at all. Currently the ama's reflect more u-shaped bow sections morphing into rounded triangular crossections.


Quote

In 1984 Bill started designing and developing the RC-27, a design which would set the standard for many boats well into the future. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s the RC-27 set numerous records in the US and Europe.



I'm quite sure none of the Volvo-extreme 40, french racing cats and tri's, F18's and a score of other designers were ever influenced by this RC-27. I can't even name a single record that is held or was held by the RC-27 catamaran. The only boat in NL was parked several years next to my sailing club but even there is never sailed. At the Round Texel is was usual for this boat to drop out halveway due to damage or other problems.


In the past discussions with Bill I found that he holds surprisingly weird opinions about hydro- and aerodynamics for a guy that worked on jet engines and is a mechanical engineer. I have always wondered what patents in relation to jet engine design he really holds.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: Wouter] #127254
01/12/08 11:57 AM
01/12/08 11:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
jeez wouter, settle down. It's off of Aquarius' website. It's a marketing tool. What are they supposed to say? "Hi, we poorly build poorly designed slow boats"? I only know a couple of people who have had one and they all really liked the ARC boats.

Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #127255
01/13/08 08:25 AM
01/13/08 08:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
There is a difference in stating how good (you think) your design is and errornously claiming that elements used in its design are used (extensively) else where, or quoting achivements that just aren't there.

This first is an opinion, everybody does that and we all know they do, the second is just stating something as a (verifiable) fact that in reality simply isn't, not even close. The first is even protected under "free speech" the second is not. In some cases the second is subject to punishment by law (lible suits)

One can say the M20 is a great boat with superior sailing behaviour, but one can not say that it is the dominant catamaran class in the world or that it is the "industy standard".

That is stating something as fact that one knows is not true; a thing often denoted by many people as L....

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: Wouter] #127256
01/13/08 06:41 PM
01/13/08 06:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
dsltrc Offline
journeyman
dsltrc  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 93
virginia beach, VA
geeze... i'm really sorry i got u upset for adding that page..... just thought i would help the question of who had a hand in the original design of the SC....


Jason DiPietro supercat 19
Re: best moderate wind performer for the surf ?? [Re: dsltrc] #127257
01/13/08 07:07 PM
01/13/08 07:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
erice Offline
old hand
erice  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
naa, don't be sorry

always good to see both sides of the story

had seen their claims and wondered why they hadn't been reflected in sales...

"... Bob Bergsted sailed the SuperCat 17 even up with the Nacra 5.2, a "beach boat" pitted against what was considered to be an excellent "board boat."

this 1 i think means that the dagger-less sc17 was able to keep up with most of the daggered 5.2's, not much of a claim really:o)


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
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