BIMARE announces the launch of a new 16 footer named X16
See:
http://www.bimare.net/17/x16.htm
However the new design is not intended to fit the F16HP class rule.
Its main marketing target are the owners of singlehanded high performance skiffs such as the Musto Skiff, the RS600 etc.
BIMARE's goal is to bring new blood into the catamaran sailing community, not to drag people from other catamaran classes.
The X16 is expected to be on sale in two-three months.

Catfan,

Do you know why Bimare decided (again ?) to not make the X16 boat F16 compliant ?

I'm honestly wondering about that. The F16 class rules allow the main points on Bimares wish list without risking non-compliance; a carbon mast, a uni-rig, lightweight construction and Wouter no longer an official in the class <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> .

Indeed, a ui-rig is somewhat less competitive in the 2-up configurations but it won't be in the 1-up situation and some peopple truly believe that an uni-rig is always faster then a sloop. So if Bim really believes uni-rigged F16's are superior in all uses then lets have one !

I wonder why the Bimare designs like the Javelin 16 and apparently now the X16 are soo similar to the F16's but still being non-compliant in only a few minor points. There is not really any good reason to not make the carbon masts 0.5 mtr shorter en increase the sailarea by 1.0 sq. mtr. If anything the boat will be faster, the carbon mast can be cut-off at the bottom and the sailmaker will make any size sail you ask him for, all for the same costs. But maybe more importantly, the new Bim will then be part of a class that much more sales potential the world over then the "go-at-it-alone" alternative. I think the "succes" of the Javelin-16 class would have shown that by now.

It all just doesn't make any economic sense to make X-16 so similar yet not F16 compliant. Like that you are entering into direct competition with the big boat builders like Hobie (FX-extreme = F104) and Nacra (I-17R c.q. F17 = F104) AS WELL as the F16 class. This combination is just too powerful in comparison to the Bimare yard to have the X16 stand much of a chance. It will be far smarter economically to choose a side (F104 or F16) and run with that.

Where does my reasoning go wrong. Do you know ?

Wouter

Does the guys at Bimare know about the F-16 class at all, and if they do, what do they know? Sounds like either they are buying heavily into uni rigs, or they dont know enough about the class.

I've known about the X16 for a about the last 4 months, yes BIM are aware of the F16, why the X16 is not an F16 I do not know.

Bimare has been aware of the F16 ever since the inception of the F16 class in 2001. Actually the F16 ball started rolling in may 2001 when a post was made on the main forum suggesting level racing between the Bim 16 (predecessor to the Javelin-16 and now X-16) and the Taipan 4.9's. This was based on the realisation that both boats were very similar in specs and indeed ratings. About 3 months later the (orginal) Stealth was added. For a while we tried to get all three boats into a level racing class that was called the F16HT class. That didn't work as Bim was only willing to accept a setup that followed their Bim 16 completely, down to the details. Of course that was never going to be acceptable to the Taipan and Stealth people. Afterall, it is always a little bit of give and take. So the Bimare yard got out and the F16HT class because F16HP class at that time, which was renamed a fewe months later to F16 class. It is interesting to note that only people associated to the Bimare yard still use the name F16HP class in their postings. For all others it is now just F16.

Anyway, about a year and halve after the start-up of the F16 class, bimare came out with their Javelin-16 and made some promo for it on this forum, coupled with the intend to show the F16 class how successful this class would be in the USA and other regions of the world. We had several unknown (anonymous) US sailors commenting on how they would buy the Javelin-16 boat instead of a F16, right here on the F16 forum. Mind you, this was the time when the US F18HT (now 18HT) class was still regarded as a succes story. That ended in april 2003, if I remember correctly, with the Worrell fiasco and the final nail in the coffin was struck by the first Tybee 500 distance race that replaced the Worrell. The US 18HT class desintegrated rapidly after that and its main supporter and importer threw in the towel not much later. Not a single Javelin-16 was shipped to the US.

The Javelin-16 design slumbered a bit ever since then and I still am not aware of a single boat sale. I'm sure a handful were sold but it has failed to make an impression internationally as it has not shown up in any race-results of importance like Carnac, Texel and other large regatta's I keep an eye on.

A few months ago. We see talk of a new Bimarea 16 footer on the French language page dedicated to the F104 class creation. I think it was catfan again who commented on the F16 class in his postings there together with the message that the new Bim 16 footer would also not be a F104.

So basically, "F16" does pop up in communication made by Bimare associated people from time to time and as such I think they are well aware of the F16 class. They certainly have been in the past as I have communicated directly with Valerio Petrucci myself about the F16 class. He is the son of the owner of the Bimare Yard.

Additionally, F16 is now much more well known around the world then back in 2001 and 2002. You would have be sticking your head very deep into the sand to miss it anno 2007 and 2008. I mean Alter Cup 2007 on Blade F16's, hobie corp refering to F16's in the FX-extreme launching communique, F16 Worlds having been held in 2007 and last but not least the fact that VWM produces the Blade F16 AND Bimare products under license ! Bimare, decided to have VWM build their products in USA after they had seen VWM succesfully launch their very first small boat into the US market: The Blade F16 !

I think there is not a single possibility were the Bimare Yard is NOT aware of the F16's, that is just plain impossible considering the above history.

Wouter

I think you might be right Rolf about Bim not fully understand the F16 concept. But this is a problem that we as a Class are currently coming to terms with, which is definitely a step in the right direction.
At times I feel that Dinghy/Cat manufacturers are their own worst enemies. If there wasn't the current magnitude of such diversity in the sailing scene then sailing could be more popular which seems a bit of a contradiction. But the manufacturers seem to be diluting the benefits of class racing and the camaraderie which goes with it by offering an abundance of models. In the UK we currently have 138 different Dinghies and Multihulls, not including the FX Extreme and Bim X16. Is this really necessary and good for the people involved in the sport and does it put off perspective enthusiasts!!!
I'm not pretending to know the answers and my thoughts may have radical flaws but surely the manufacturers can't just continue to throw out numerous models around a theme hoping one will take the sailing populations imagination and money.
It seems to me that somebody in France has also noted the various amount of Cats designed around roughly the same parameters and is trying to group them together under the F104 umbrella. Maybe we shouldn't be too hasty in overlooking this new Class. Given careful consideration it might be worth us getting involved. This could upset some of the purists amongst us but overall could have some major benefits. I know there is a small problem with our current rating and I wouldn't want to change anything on an F16 to the detriment of it's performance, so we would just have to show that mathematically based ratings aren't as accurate as some people believe.
P.S I don't intend to start a discussion about ratings as all of them have good and bad points, that's why as I have previously mentioned, Class racing is probably the most enjoyable form of competition.

I suspect that the reason behind BIMARE's decision is the low interest towards F16 cats in at least three of its main markets: Italy, France and Switzerland.
However I am sure that if, for istance, the UK importer (JJcats)placed an order for a few - fully F16HP complaint - X16s, BIMARE would be pleased to build heavier hulls and fit a shorter mast on its 16 footer.
As Wouter wrote in a recent posting some kgs of resin do not cost much and BIMARE has already built a couple of its autoclaved masts for a F16 owner.
In the next season many of you will have the opportunity to find out who is this guy.
It goes without saying that these masts are both fully optimized to the needs of a F16HP, but with different bending characteristics.

I think Lalo Petrucci is fully aware of the F16 class and what the rules are for the F16 boats, it is more the interest what Catfan is saying at the moment what the main reason is.
From A-class we know that Lalo is building good boats and with the new V1 A-class he is trying to get a better product on the A-class market again.
It will be interesting to see how the carbon masts will go and what they will do like bending characteristics, this development is not a bad one it will keep the class sharp and when it seems that the F16 class is growing in his market area he can change very quickly his first design. I am curious how the boat will look but the way i know Lalo it will be close to the V1 a-class.

I think the F16 manufacturers are happy to leave these area's as the main market for Bimare. Also, I've not spotted much interest there in the Bim-16 and Javelin-16 predecessors to the X16, so why would things be different now ? I think interest is low now in either design as neither is promoted much or can present a possible buyer with a viable class structure in this area.

However the thing that is a little bit illogical is the decision to introduce a non-F16 in these area's knowing full well that even it is is succesful (not garanteed by any measure) that it will be very difficult to grow outside of this area because of the F16 being alot stronger outside of it. Any alternative to the F16 can pretty much forget about Northern Europe, USA, Australia/New Zealand and the parts of Asia and Africa. Example, There is simply no way that VWM will produce this X16 for the US market as it will directly compete with its own Blade F16; that would be economically stupid. Exchange rates and lack of class will rule out imports. Similar strong arguments exist against the X16 for the other regions. If the X16 were to be a full F16 in all area's then a possible success in France, Italy and Switzerland could provide a springboard to other area's the world over using the F16 general promotion and class structures.

Personally I don't understand why a Bim X16 in F16 compliant mode would have less chance of succes in France, Italy and Switzerland then a non F16 compliant Bim X16. The differences are too small to notice unless the two designs are right along side eachother. The same in the way of performance.



It is also really doubtful that starting a whole new class based on the area of France, Italy and Switzerland will be enough. I don't assign much chance of succes to a class based mostly in Italy and Switzerland, previous experiences with the various Bimare, Eagle and Mattia classes have shown that much, so France will be the only and last battle ground. The F16 alternatives absolutely need that area to have any chance of surviving as an major class. F16 can establish itself beyond any doubt if it claims France, although it can probably survive as a major class without it.

Basically, we are all setting ourselves up for a major conflict in France that will not be beneficial to either one of us. Currently the F16 class is "locked in" and has been for the last 5 years, and so we can't change. Therefor the F16 class will have to meet any (NEWLY FORMED) challenges head-on and try to beat them outright. I don't fancy the chances of any new class without a fleet or class structure in such a scenario, especially if it is not a F104.


I know many will hate me for saying it, but if the X16 is anything like its predecessors (Go-at-it_alone) than it will simply fail as a class as well. It looks like all the same mistakes will be made again.

And Mark Pressdee is right, we (cat and dinghy manufacturers) are often our own worst enemies.

My theory is that Bimare just wants to use as many parts and tooling of their other models like the A-class as they can to minimize costs and maximize profit. Why else make the Bim-16 and Javelin-16 predecessor 2.3 mtr wide (= same as A-cat) and fit it with a mast and mainsail of A-cat dimensions and a single trapeze ?

Bimare better make the X16 something really special if it wants to win that very steep uphill battle against the F16's and possibly the F104's. The Bimare yard is no where near the size and power to even try such a thing succesfully. You'd have to be a company with the size and market/dealor penetration of Hobie cat or Nacra to even consider it. Notice how well their FX-one and F17 are doing ?





Of course it is very nice to hear that the X16 could be modified into a full compliant F16, but lets not confuse ourselves here. A competitive F16 is best designed as one from the beginning; that much we have learned from converting the Taipans.

I would even go one step further. It would be smarter to design the X16 as an F16 and when so desired modify it into a non-F16 setup when so requested by the buyer. It is always better to adjust a design downward then upward. And lets be honest, the new F16 designs (Viper and Aussie Blade) are currently putting down a real challenge in speed and handling. It will not be simple to get level with these by modifying a non F16 design here and there; that time has passed.

Wouter

A new X16 that doesn't comply with existing F16HT rules makes no sense to me. Why try to re-invent the wheel when there is already an existing class to sell into? You can still bring in mono-dinghy people, they don't care about a few inches here and there, they want a good fleet to race in, and a -new- boat will only have small fleets for years to come, until they can sell enough boats to enough areas to make it go. It has taken the F16 class about 5 years or more to get to where we are today (and we needed Wouter to get it going) does Bim have that kind of time and someone like Wouter to do it? No. What a waste of plastic.

Between them and the French SL 16, what a waste, of what could have been two more boats/builders in the F16 class. What is it with these guys? Are they "Too Good" for the rest of us? Or do they not want to compete with the other builders, on price and product? Is that why they want to go with their own, private, class? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Funny how the development of the F-16 class is mostly constricted to english speaking countries. Not neccesarily native english speaking, but where english is very common.
We have in a small way started to look at developing french, spanish and german subsets of our (formula16.org) site, but it looks like this should be a priority. Anybody willing and able to translate some text from english to german, spanish and italian? Hopefully better than Google or Babelfish <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Wouter, Hans or Catfan. If you know the guys at Mattia, perhaps you could talk with them and just ask them why they choose to do a 16 footer and not make it F-16 compliant? Who knows, we might get an answer and be able to learn something from it.

Hi Wouter and all,

I have recently bought a 2004 Javelin 16. The German dealer told me that the X16 rig would be the same as on the Javelin 16, but the hulls are similar to the new A-Cats, slightly higher and 5kg heavier.
My impression is that Bimare tries to use same toolings and parts from their A-Cats to reduce costing. For example the mast comes from the some mould and sheets and other parts are the same. As long as Bimare gives this cost benefit to us, it is a fair deal (the Javelin 16 was sold very cheap).


In oppostion to alumium masts, carbon masts have varying skin thickness and local reinforcments for Diamond wires and other fittings, so you can't unffortunately cut half a meter.
At least in Germany the boat is sold as "fun" boat, without mentioning classes, so apparently Bimare doesn't try to make a 16 feet class. And the owners think similar (handicap instead of formula, if they like to race at all). So way should they buy a boat with 5% shorter mast and some kg more?


Competion is good for the consumers. And if there is competion between classes, it is good too. If not, we still would think that fast cats cannot be lighter than 180kg and CFRP masts are prohibitive for normal people.
But to be honest I don't see much competion between F16 and the X16 and the boats are more different as it seems on a first look.

Cheers,

Klaus

if you can accept to have a translation from a Bimaree owner <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, I could help you a little bit for the German part.

I've just done a quick bit of research and there are approimately 28 various types of cats currently being sold and raced in the UK. 14 of these are 5m long or shorter, 3 of these are specifically targeted at junior, youth sailors. Therefore, we have 11 Classes aimed at the lighter crews. If the manufacturers hadn't been so keen to set up their own one design classes and had opted for say three formula classes there would still have been an element of competition between them as there is between Nacra et al. The sailors would have also have benefited from the bigger classes and the associated friendships which are formed which can only be good for sailing as a whole. Unfortunately this hasn't been the case and to the new comer the choice of Catamaran or Dinghy is a bit of a mine field.

Hi Mark,

I understand your point about clear structured (and limited number) classes and agree with it. But if the class rules are to strict, i.e. F18, then we would only see very limited development. I think that the F18 class is very convenient for the builders, they do not need to put much money in develop, but much in marketing. The customer does not profit from that. The same happened with the F104, and that is way the big cat companies tend to jump on this train (IMO).
On the other hand I think that we all profit from the Spitfires, Taipans and other non-formula boats, because they showed that also small, light (and sometimes cheap) boats can be fast and that 100kg for 2 person catamaran are possible. I do not know, if the F16 rules would have a minimum weight of about 105kg, but 140kg without some of these 11 classes you mentioned.
If you set class rules which are good for the owner, which have challanging weight limits, i.e. F16, you will probably not see companies like Hobie or Nacra and you have the risk, that the class remains unpopulated.
Clearly there must be a balance these two worlds. But I would always be happy if there is at least one companie (hopefully more), which builds a boat outside of rules, because they belive that it will be better.

Cheers,

Klaus

Hi Klaus
I think we have both made some very valid points and I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. However, I think it was a real shame that the Spitfire which was produced post F16 was designed to be a one design class, but that is just my opinion.

That is one of the key points behind the F-16 rules: The boats are for the sailors, not the builders. As such, they might present a challenge for builders, which is part of the fun for homebuilding. For companies with skilled workers and good quality control it also possible to build down to the min. weight limit. I dont know what profits that would leave for the company but it would be the same for all. Just as with the F-18s or A-cats.

Klaus, I'll get back to you on the translation issue. Just need to clear what we want to translate and maintain in different language versions. I think it is important for the class tough, so thank you for the offer! I am not worried about having a non-F16 over translating, I can read german quite well <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Would you concider morphing your boat into an F-16 if a class grew in northern Germany? Just curious about you..

Let me clearify my statement.

I meant to say that there is no reason to produce a 8.5 mtr tall carbon F16 mast from the 9.15 mtr long A-cat mast mould. You change the layup indeed and then cut off the bottom section to get it to be 8.5 mtr. If needed you could cut off section both from top and bottom as long as you have modified the layup.

I think the reason to go with the A-cat mast has far more to do with the fact that the Bim-16/javelin-16/X16 mast is actually an A-cat mast with an A-cat sail. Therefor marrying the inventory for these boats with the A-cat inventory. Same with the beams and rudders. Otherwise there will not be any cost savings.

But with that limitation the Bim-16/Jav-16/X16 is nothing more then a cheap A-cat where the hulls are shorter as well.

Personally I would rather have a cheap version A-cat then a 16 foot imitation that is neither an A-cat or an F16.

The thinking behind the bim-16/javelin-16/and X16 really baffles me.

Wouter

Hi Rolf and Wouter


Actually there are more difference (mast height and tip weight, main sail area, spi, width and jib...) as you may expect. Actually I would ask for participating with the same rating as a F16, since I am a recreatial sailor with limited budget and it does not matter if I am the slowest.


Well, it is a short A-cat with reinforced mast, so you can sail it with 2 man (I would not do that with an A-cat). And it comes with a spi or hooter, which adds a lot of value compared to an A-cat.
It is sad that Bimare will not build a dedicated F16, but for the pro and cons of Bimares choice we could discuss without an end...

Cheers,

Klaus

I will try to explain you more in details the reasons why the X16 will not fit the F16HP class rules.
Before starting I would like to provide you with some info about this new design:
a)as Hans wrote, the X16 will resemble very closely the new V1 A cat;
b)the width of the boat is still to be set but for sure it will be in the 2,30-2,45 m range;
c)the weight of the X16 (ready to sail with furling hooter) will fall between 90 and 95 Kg;
d) the retail price of a complete X16 (carbon mast) will be set between EUR 12.000 and 12.500. The actual retail price of the Javelin 16 (carbon mast) is EUR 11.560. Most likely, again as the Javelin 16, also a cheaper version fitted with an aluminium mast will be on sale at around EUR 1.000 less.
I don’t know (and I suspect BIMARE too) the amount of the F16s sold in 2007 in Europe (the exchange rate prevents any sale of European boats in the USA).
Now divide this amount by 2 (on the generous assumption that the F16 market is fairly divided between sloop rigged and unirigged boats). Now divide this amount again by 4 or 5 (the presumable market quote that BIMARE can get in 2008: at the end BIMARE can expect to place only 4 to 5 boats in the F16 market (not an great deal).
On the contrary with the X16 BIMARE aims to get the bulk of quite an interesting market, (at least in Germany and Switzerland according to BIMARE importers): the market of singlehanded sailors willing to sail fast both upwind and downwind on the German and Swiss lakes, with a boat very very close in performance to an A cat fitted with an asymmetric, but a lot cheaper, not so weak and more forgiving. According to BIMARE estimates this market is worth 40-50 boats a year.
The attention reserved by many reputed German and Swiss sailmakers to A class asymmetrics testifies in favour of the a.m. statement together with the escalating sales of singlehanded skiffs in the same countries.
Also the BIM 16 and the Javelin 16 were suited for the same market but were unable to catch this market for two main reasons: 1) they came somewhat in advance of time and they felt short of expections of the potential purchasers (they were simply perceived as small cats lacking of the cool “racing” look).
The X16 on the contrary will be in full a 16’ A cat fitted with a revised (new design, new cloth, new gear) hooter wholly suited to win the bet. Let’s wait and see.
Let's finish with a few answers to Wouter:
the only parts that BIMARE A class and the new X16 will have in common are the mainsail, the rudder stocks and blades. The mast has a quite different stratification to bear the charges of the hooter and of the occasional crew.
BIMARE has a full range of A cats (the cheap AJ/V1 listed at EUR 13.500 (fiberglass-vinylster), the medium priced carbon-vinylester V1 listed at EUR 16.000, the epoxi-carbon V1 listed at EUR 17.500): however none of them is tailored to fit the a.m. market.
I hope you agree
be the ht product for the mar