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Re: Calling All Hobie 14 sailors-past, present, future [Re: Jake] #12826
11/10/02 03:56 PM
11/10/02 03:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
MaryAWells Offline
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MaryAWells  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 273
Key Largo, FL
Jake,
There is no definition, and there are two or three different theories about how to handle junior/youth sailing (and it also gets complicated because some people have different definitions for "junior" and "youth", but I just use them interchangeably).

In my opinion, all kids should be in junior sailing programs on prams (Optimist dinghies) from ages 8-12. At that point most kids start moving onto Lasers and Club 420's and a couple of other popular classes, and they usually sail those until they are 18 years old.

I think the idea is that we need a catamaran as another option for kids during those years from 12-18. And now there is going to be a Youth Development Class or something like that for kids age 19-22, and that would involve training them on actual Olympic class boats.

Now, some people in the multihull group think one cat can work for that whole age range from 12-18. Other people think we need two cats, one for ages 12-16 and another for 16-18. Since the Hobie 16 has been sort of considered the default youth boat for a long time, some think we need something like the Hobie Wave or Dragoon or Mystere 4.3 for the younger kids and the Hobie 16 for the 16-18-year-olds.

I am one who thinks we should use the same boat for ages 12-18. The Mystere 4.3, the Dragoon and the Hobie Wave all have the ability to be an extremely versatile platform that can go from very simple and basic to as complex as you want to make it. All have the ability to be sailed with either one or two people, and with a variety of sail combinations. (And they can be used to teach adults as well as children.) By the time kids are 15 or 16 years old, they will probably be at a fairly complex level with the boat. It does not make sense to me to, at that point, move them onto a Hobie 16, which is a much more basic boat, for two years, and then put them onto a Tornado.

In addition, it will be hard enough to convince yacht clubs and other sailing programs to add a multihull to their fleet, without telling them, "By the way, you will have to have two different boats." One 420 is a lot cheaper than two cats -- and takes up a lot less space. Same thing goes for parents who want to buy one for their kids.

Isn't NAMSA supposed to be working with the Multihull Council on getting all this sorted out? It would be nice if a committee could get together and say, "This is how it is going to be," so we can move forward and make it work. We're never going to get anywhere until we have a plan.There are probably parents out there who would be willing to buy a boat for their kids if they just knew what boat to buy.

And as I have said before, it doesn't have to be the same boat everywhere -- there is already a big fleet of 4.3's in Ohio, and there are a lot of Waves in Florida, and maybe somebody will start a fleet of Dragoons somewhere. But there should be some guidelines for existing organized sailing programs that want to add catamarans. One boat or two different sizes? When we get admitted to Junior Olympic Festivals, what type(s) of cats are going to be used? What type/size of cats are going to be used at the annual U.S. Youth Multihull Championships? Are Hobie 16's going to continue to be used for the ISAF Youth World Championships?

Talk, talk, talk. Lots of questions and no answers. This has been going on for years.

The only successful junior catamaran sailing program I know of is Larry Hale's Boy Scout Camp at St. George's Island in the Florida Panhandle. What we need to do is clone Larry and set up camps like that around the country.

I should add there is another theory, like Mindy's, about starting kids out on 14's and moving up to 16's. And it sounds logical if we are working strictly within the catamaran community. However, NAHCA has worked for years to get youth programs going on Hobie 16's, and it has not been very successful, mostly because beach-cat sailors do not have much infrastructure for ongoing programs. And that is why the Multihull Council is now taking a whole different approach in trying to get catamarans accepted into the mainstream sailing world, where the infrastructures do exist. I do not know how to say this without having the Hobie 14 and 16 people think I am bashing their boats, because I am not; however, I think that if we are going to make any progress with the establishment that is dominated by monohull sailors, we need a boat that is more high tech and that looks more like what they will think of as a "real boat" and that we can reasonably argue is providing an "Olympic path" for our multihull sailors. If the Hobie 16 had been accepted as our Olympic catamaran, it would be a different story. Although catamaran kids might prefer the Hobie 14 and Hobie 16, I think the problem is that we do not have enough catamaran kids, so we are now trying to attract the monohull kids.

To do that, we have to deal with a lot of politics and elitist attitudes. It is not about trying to push kids into SERIOUS racing. It is just that we have to jump through all these hoops just to get to the point of being included at all in the huge world of youth sailing so we can at least show other kids how much fun cats are, regardless of whether they want to race them. Right now monohulls and multihulls are in parallel worlds that do not mingle much.

Last edited by MaryAWells; 11/10/02 05:47 PM.

Mary A. Wells
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Calling All Hobie 14 sailors-past, present, future [Re: MaryAWells] #12827
11/10/02 05:11 PM
11/10/02 05:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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wildtsail  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
Hey everybody,
Let me start by saying the I am turning 18 in 3 days and will no longer technically be a youth according to US Sailing and etc. I have been racing catamarans since I was 12 and have been to every national youth catamaran championship in that time (well only three but still everyone). There has been a lot of progress in promotion of youth sailing. I believe that the strongest help to this effort has been the U.S. Sailing Multihull council and particularly Mr. Arthur Stevens.
More youths do need to voice their opinions (such as Mindy). It is an excellent idea to make a youth forum, but one for youths not one that adults talk on. Kids need to discuss this and talk about it without the interuption of adults until the conversation is over. It is almost an experiment and it must be a controlled experiment to work effectivley. If the adults want to pitch ideas about possible boats then let the kids talk then review it and look at it to see what is the most realistic possibility that will provide the best oppurtunity for youth sailors then do it, whatever works.
I have tried to help out youth sailing in many ways but it is tough. It is frustrating to have U.S. Sailing, the NAHCA and NAMSA working in 3 different forces, why not join up? Who cares if you don't have the same opinions and ideas? Everyone involved loves the sport and wants to promote it and get youths involved for the future.
Infact, I am not even going to bother with my opinion on what should be the trainer or youth boat. Because this conversation, like all the others will just get burried and forgotten about because not enough people will read this and make it a joint effort to act on it.
What you need to do... is make a youth forum (as Mindy brilliantly suggested) and have everyone interested in the promotion of this sport monitor is and draw conclusions from there.
-Todd Riccardi
Hobie 14 #14
Hobie 18 #16797 (just sold)

P.S.
I have been toying with the idea of having a youth championships(for fun) on hobie 14s in Newport, RI in the spring on the boats that are used in the frostbite series. If there would be any interest let me know. It would be a good preview of how kids like the 14 and we arleady have 3 or 4 youths in the series and more in the surrounding area that may be joining.

P.P.S.
The Hobie 14 is DEFINATLEY NOT a step back in the promotion of youth sailing. As long as the youths are on the water its a step in the right direction, eventually they wil lee the bigger and faster boats and upgrade when they are good enough. And I have heard many excellent sailors say "if you can sail a 14 well, you can sail anything".

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Re: Calling All Hobie 14 sailors-past, present, future [Re: wildtsail] #12828
11/10/02 09:37 PM
11/10/02 09:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Todd,

I agree - most directives to establish a universal youth catamaran program are not 'universal'. However, I am part of NAMSA and the purpose of my previous post was to try and assimilate a little information on what people think is important in a youth boat. I think a lot of times the 'speed junkie' adults (I fall into that category) want a little too much complication in a youth boat and I'm glad to hear from some younger sailors in this thread - hope to hear from some more. Let's forgo the 'this boat & that boat' for a moment and say what is important to have in a youth boat. This is not a worthless thread and it won't simply get buried. Before we are going to get recognition within other sailing organizations, we have to be focused and organized ourselves.


Jake Kohl
Re: Calling All Hobie 14 sailors-past, present, future [Re: MaryAWells] #12829
11/11/02 02:02 PM
11/11/02 02:02 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 78
S
Surf Offline OP
journeyman
Surf  Offline OP
journeyman
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 78
How it works for us in our club: Maybe it will be of use for someone! Sorry for the long post!

Sense our club is a totally inclusive club we do things a certain way. First off we are not a club that is tied down with kids with mental/cognitive disAbilities as some on this forum may know if you turn your club into a development disability group you do a lot of baby sitting, etc. Nothing against this group but it is a completely different world. Luckily we were smart enough to know how to serve this population so they do not feel left out, actually we were voted by a local development disAbility org. as the most fun program for the this summer - for those interested email me it's a long story. So with that said we deal with kids without disAbilities and kids with physical disAbilities. Once again, if they also have a cognitive disability we have the means to get support for that. Therefore, for those who want total inclusion in their clubs there is a way to do this and not get buried by the effort and in fact your program will be better for it mentally and with participation numbers.

In a nut shell here is the boats we use and how we run our program.

Ages 6-10 is our PRE-JUNIOR sailors, they sail the Access Dinghy 2.3 and they also get to crew on bigger boats such as the H14 with or without Trapseats and the Access Dinghy 303.

Ages 11-14 is the JUNIOR age sailors and they sail the Access Dinghy 303 and Hobie 14 as a turbo or not, and with or without Trapseats, and of course crew on the H16 with or without Trapseats.

Ages 15-19 is our youth age sailors and they race the Access Dinghy 303 or H16 with or without Trapseats, and I might add with the Trapseat Spinnakers. And this is as far as we go with our boats. Now if some kids want to go to other classes, etc. great at least they have a strong foundation. If you can sail a H14 or 16 in a blow you can sail anything. Also the Access Dinghy and H16 have strong class racing, etc.

I will add that our kids love to sail together - kids with kids with and without disAbilities, which adds a lot of fun to our programs and also is making our program grow and get media coverage. So in our club there is a saying, "If it isn't accessible we don't sail it" Our club motto is "Sailing For Everyone." Our club is part of Sailability International, which is an international sailing organization that promotes sailing for those with and without disAbilities. So you will not see us sailing boats that are not accessible.

And here are some other issues to think about. My wife and I went to a Hobie fleet meeting about two years ago and we set through the whole meeting listening to them talked about what beer company sponsor they were going to get for their regattas, plus they joked about their drunken sailors they had at last years regatta. My wife of course was not impressed and I might add we have never allowed our kids to go to that regatta (along with other families), which is unfortunate because they are so close to us. Our club also does not have Sunday regattas, etc. because first, some have to travel far and need the day to go home or they are religious, etc. I can&'t tell you the numbers of times I have heard people say "I can't go to that regatta because it is on the weekend and I need to get back for work on Monday or the kids have something to do on Monday." So we have found being sensitive to these and other issues increase our club participation within our area and those traveling to our events, and making it conducive environment for junior/youth sailing.

Also, Mary you indicate the only successful youth program you know of is Larry Hale's Boy Scout Camp at St. George's Island in the Florida Panhandle )which I do believe they use H16's (most likely out of availability, which I hope it is more than that), but there is also a Hobie group in Baja California and other areas. It would be interesting to here how they are running these programs, etc. You can actually contact these groups via the NAHCA in the youth section of the website.

Seems NAHCA has just now caught on to the vision of junior/youth sailing, and Mary you are right they have not been very successful because of their junior/youth infrastructure, unlike Hobie sailing in other parts of the world, but I think this is changine. In addition, you are also right about the difficulty of convincing a yacht club to include cats (whether its one or two types of cats). I for one see no reason to beat them over the head with cats, and I do not see these yacht clubs anytime soon including us. Chris Mitchell the designer of the Access Dinghies has traveled the world and he has told me that the attitudes of almost all yacht clubs he has visited all have the same elitist and exclusion attitude. He told me to skip the yacht clubs! I have found yacht clubs in my area to be resistant to dinghy sailing and especially sailing for people with disAbilities. So yacht clubs seem to be maybe the wrong way to go. As for cost I also know that 420's go for a fairly good price and that I could by a used H16 and H14 for the price of one 420 (a nice 420). I just think hooking into yacht clubs may not be the way to go. So an inclusive club of sailors of all ages with and without disAbilities has tremendous political power, actually on Nov 12 we are meeting with the county officials to finalize the details our new sailing club facility (water sport facility). When you come to the county officials and indicate you can help them with accessibility issues (new regulations from the ADA Access Board guidelines), make their facility a standard that the rest of the county will use as a standard, a place that media will grab onto, a place where ALL people will love to come, etc., etc. they sit up and listen and not just with supportive words but also financial support. It's also a strong message when you show up to a county meeting with junior & youth, adults, people in wheelchairs, etc. Many times example (seeing it) is stronger than words. We have also teamed up with the local college, rehab facility, parks & rec., county to work together to run boater safety course, boater awareness events, etc. We are also developing a boater video series to discuss accessibility of sailing, safety, sailing (monohull & multihulls), as previous they only dealt with powerboats and jet skis, with a light taste of sailing. So to me we need to place more of our efforts on county and government groups, instead of wasting our time on biased yacht clubs that have no interested in multihulls and sure don’t want to see multihulls push in our their territory. Of course our club is for both multihull and monohull which makes use even harder to fight against.

We can do what we have done as a club, join up with Sailability International and USA, and fight together for both monohull, multihull, and disAbled sailors together, not just as a multihull group. Seems to me we are fighting so hard to be included that we are forgetting the bigger picture! This is what our club is doing and it is working!

One of the reason I am doing what I am doing is because I waited to be taught how to get junior and youth sailing going in my area and what I found was no one really knew what they were doing, heck they can't even agree with is junior and youth, to me these are two words that should not be interchangeable.

Once again these are my ideas, the clubs ideas (I can not take total credit for it), and especially my junior and youth members ideas.

GARY - as you can tell we train kids with and without disAbilities. We will need to get several more of your righting systems.

Re: Calling All Hobie 14 sailors-past, present, fu [Re: Surf] #12830
11/11/02 03:41 PM
11/11/02 03:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
On the subject of what should be the Junior or Youth catamaran, there are as many opinions as there are sailors.
Fortunately we all share a common, more general, goal of giving kids the opportunity to sail cats.
So how will this all pan out five years down the road? I’ll tell you.
The group that gets out there and actually puts their plan into action is the group that will determine the future (not the people who write to forums).
So, is everybody ready?
On your mark…….
Get set……..
Go!

Re: Calling All Hobie 14 sailors-past, present, fu [Re: rhodysail] #12831
11/11/02 05:10 PM
11/11/02 05:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 78
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Surf Offline OP
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Surf  Offline OP
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Exactly rhobysail, check it out - http://www.sail-s.com/main/sail/Sailing_Group/Sailing_Group_MAIN.htm

There are also other junior/youth multihull groups going so will be interesting to see what happens.

Wildtsail sail how many H14's do you have sailing and do the kids like to sail them? Of course I would be interested in such an event, along with the kids in our club. There is the Baja California event that will be going next year with H16's that should be great.

May be helpful [Re: MaryAWells] #12832
11/11/02 07:49 PM
11/11/02 07:49 PM
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Surf  Offline OP
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Forgot to add to my last post a link to a pictorial explanation of monohull/multihull sailboats used for junior and youth sailing. May help some who are visual learners. http://www.sail-s.com/main/sail/Sailing_Group/Sailing_Group_Policies_&_Contacts.htm

Cheers!

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